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Alan Head

Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 38

Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:07 pm Post subject:

CIR Engineering wrote:

Do you have an oscope or at least a dmm? You have 5 volts and ground, but it would be nice to verify that you are sending TTL from the Lumagen to the IR transmitter.

craigr

I have a dmm.

However I think the problem lies with the Gen2 emitter.

If I use the Gen2 Emitter in solid orange mode my Nvidia 3DVision glasses sync up fine and my type N glasses sync up fine.

If I use the Gen2 Emitter in solid red mode my ancient edimensional glasses sync up fine.

If I use the Gen2 Emitter in blinking orange mode I am unable to get any of my glasses to sync.

If I use my old samsung emitter plugged in to the Lumagen dongle my old Samsung ssg1000 glasses sync fine.

The common issue seems to be that orange blinking mode is somehow broken on the gen2 emitter.

regards

Alan

CIR Engineering

Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:19 pm Post subject:

Alan Head wrote:

If I use my old samsung emitter plugged in to the Lumagen dongle my old Samsung ssg1000 glasses sync fine.

The common issue seems to be that orange blinking mode is somehow broken on the gen2 emitter.

regards

Alan

Agreed. You must have a defective IR transmitter. I have no trouble with mine and the Samsung glasses... and neither does Moome or Cliff.

What refresh rate are you running? I have only found the Samsung glasses will sync to 96Hz and 120Hz, they don't work with 72Hz or 144Hz.

craigr
_________________
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Alan Head

Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 38

Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:32 pm Post subject:

CIR Engineering wrote:

If I use my old samsung emitter plugged in to the Lumagen dongle my old Samsung ssg1000 glasses sync fine.

What refresh rate are you running? I have only found the Samsung glasses will sync to 96Hz and 120Hz, they don't work with 72Hz or 144Hz.

craigr

I am running 96Hz for Blu Ray playback and 120Hz for PS3 games.

I'll contact Michael and ask him to send me another emitter.

Cheers

Alan

CIR Engineering

Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:50 am Post subject:

Alan Head wrote:

CIR Engineering wrote:

I am running 96Hz for Blu Ray playback and 120Hz for PS3 games.

I'll contact Michael and ask him to send me another emitter.

Cheers

Alan

Please be sure and tell Michael exactly what is going on and ask him if he knows anything. I sure hope they are not having trouble with the Samsung glasses with the newer emitters. All my Samsung glasses work with his gen2 and I have several slightly different models here.

Let us know if Michael says anything about the emitter changing.

kr
craigr
_________________
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www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892

CIR Engineering

Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:04 pm Post subject:

Alan Head wrote:

Craig,

I wonder if you'd mind telling me the exact model numbers of the samsung glasses that you are using.

I have one pair of ssg1000 (an older model) and one pair of ssg2100ab which are brand new.

Discussions with Michael at 3DTV corp are becoming difficult as he does not accept that the gen2 emitter could in any way be the cause of the problems I am experiencing. He is pretty sure that my Samsung glasses or the Lumagen dongle are the issue.

cheers

Alan

Well, the Samsung glasses and Lumagen dongle work perfectly here with the gen2. I feel pretty strongly that 3dtvcorp messed up the emitter in a few way with regards to the Samsung glasses though.

Firstly, the Samsung glasses are the only ones that have a timing issue with the gen2. This is why without timing adjustments there is a blue line where the glasses switch about 1/5th of the way down the screen. Of course withe the Lumagen dongle this timing line can be adjusted.
-edit: I asked Michael about this as soon as I got the gen2. Much to my surprise he responded that the problem is known and that he doesn't think anyone will really be bothered by the issue. Ha, obviously he doesn't know what a videophile is Wink

Secondly, I bought a pair of XPand x103 universal glasses. These are universal glasses that can accept protocols from many different 3D IR types. The x103 worked fine with the emitter under several formats, but when I tried to use the x103 in Samsung mode, the Gen2 emitter would not work with the x103.

I think pretty clearly that 3dtvcorp did not do a very good job with the Samsung protocol.

That being said I can use the Samsung glasses fine here with the Lumagen sync dongle as long as I also adjust the timing. The Samsung glasses models I have here now include the following:

SSG-P2100T/ZA

SSG-2100AB/ZA

SSG-P2100X/ZA

I also had five other pair here that Cliff has now. I don't know what model numbers those were, but all 12 Samsung glasses that I have had here work perfectly well with the Lumagen sync dongle and Samsung glasses.

craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying Wink

www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892

Last edited by CIR Engineering on Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

CIR Engineering

Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:17 pm Post subject:

Also, I looked back at my emails with Michael and found that when I first got the gen2 I did not yet have the Lumagen sync dongle. I used the gen2 with my home made sync dongle at first. I forgot completely that when I tried to use the gen2 with my home made sync dongle (not Lumagen) that the Samsung glasses did not work. But when I finally got the Lumagen dongle that's when they started working here. I never figured out why, I just figured it didn't really matter anymore and moved on I guess. I do recall finding that my home made sync dongle TTL wave for had low voltage though... If it is at all possible to examine the TTL output from the Lumagen with an oscope I think it might be worth it. I could measure here and we could compare wave forms to see if there is a difference. Again, I think the gen2 may be very boarder line with the Samsung glasses. JohnHW.... how are the Samsung glasses, gen2, and Lumagen dongle working for you in France? Let us know please craigr _________________ JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer Klein K10-A Colorimeter Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software! Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com Phone: 865-405-6892

CIR Engineering

Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:42 pm Post subject:

Alan Head wrote:

CIR Engineering wrote:

I am running 96Hz for Blu Ray playback and 120Hz for PS3 games.

I'll contact Michael and ask him to send me another emitter.

Cheers

Alan

Alan, try adding and / or subtracting 1ms at a time in increments. In other words, try with +1ms then make sure the glasses are on and wait about 10 seconds to see if they sync. If no, go to +2.0ms and see what happens.

I just think this might be worth a shot as if my delay is too far one way or the other my glasses will also drop out. I think that going to +/- 5.0ms will be enough to test this just to be sure.

craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying Wink

www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892

Alan Head

Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 38

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:50 pm Post subject:

CIR Engineering wrote:

If it is at all possible to examine the TTL output from the Lumagen with an oscope I think it might be worth it. I could measure here and we could compare wave forms to see if there is a difference.

craigr

I will try to borrow a oscope at some point next week and have a look at the output.

The thing is, if the ttl level is adequate for all other modes why would it be too low for the Samsung mode ?

This is a real pain as from my experimentation the samsung glasses exhibit the least ghosting of all the glasses I have tried.

Time to try Panasonic or Sony I guess.

Maybe Samsung are actively trying to stop universal type emitters from working with their glasses.

regards

Alan

CIR Engineering

Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:57 pm Post subject:

Alan Head wrote:

CIR Engineering wrote:

I never understood why the gens and Samsung glasses did not work with my home made sync board but that they do work for me with the Lumagen dongle... I still don't understand.

I don't think the gen2 works with Sony glasses does it? Be careful picking.

I also find the Samsung glasses have less ghosting than any others.

craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying Wink

www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892

Alan Head

Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 38

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:09 pm Post subject:

CIR Engineering wrote:

I don't think the gen2 works with Sony glasses does it? Be careful picking.

craigr

good call Craig, just checked the Gen2 instructions, it does not support Sony or Panasonic.

I will have a try with Samsung glasses changing the delay in 1 ms increments tomorrow.

Could you possibly check your delay settings, I know you mentioned that your Samsungs synced up at 0ms.

Was that 0ms global and 0ms style ?

Currently my lumagen dongle is sited next to my av processor on output 2 of the lumagen I might just try shifting it to the Lumagen end rather than the audio processor end or even try it on output 1.

regards

Alan

CIR Engineering

Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:26 pm Post subject:

Alan Head wrote:

CIR Engineering wrote:

I don't think the gen2 works with Sony glasses does it? Be careful picking.

craigr

Yes, mine work with 0ms global and 0ms offset in styles. With 0ms delay you should get a blue band about 1/5th the way down the screen.

I agree that you should try placing the dongle in a few other configurations. However, the signal is very simple TTL HLHLHLHL so it is not difficult to transmit. The TTL should not be subject to the type of problems that HDMI video is. TTL should have no problem on long cable runs.

craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying Wink

www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892

Alan Head

Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 38

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:25 am Post subject:

CIR Engineering wrote:

The Samsung glasses models I have here now include the following:

SSG-P2100T/ZA

SSG-2100AB/ZA

SSG-P2100X/ZA

I also had five other pair here that Cliff has now. I don't know what model numbers those were, but all 12 Samsung glasses that I have had here work perfectly well with the Lumagen sync dongle and Samsung glasses.

craigr

Just had a look the model number on the bottom of the box for my Samsung glasses is SSG-2100AB/XC

I have exchanged many emails with Michael at 3dtvcorp and he is adamant that the problem with my setup is the Samsung glasses. If that is the case then the XC part of the model number may be very significant.

Given that the Samsung glasses give the most ghost free image out of all the glasses I have. I wondered if anyone had tried this emitter ?

http://www.3dflightsim.com/product/product_02.htm

This just might be the answer for me and others in UK.

It will be interesting to see if JohnHWman has had any luck in France.

I finally got my 3DTV Corp Type N glasses to lock on to the orange flashing mode of the Gen2 emitter but only at 120Hz.

I have tried the Lumagen dongle in various positions in the chain with no difference.

I have tried varying the timing delays with the SG2100AB/XC glasses and am unable to get them to respond at all.

I checked the output of the vesa socket on the Lumagen dongle with a dmm. I get a solid 4.86V across ground and +ve. I get a varying voltage across signal and ground hovering around 2.4V. (gently cycling between 2.35V and 2.42V)

Alan

CIR Engineering

Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:19 pm Post subject:

Alan Head wrote:

CIR Engineering wrote:

I don't know... It seems to me that all the Samsung xx2100xx glasses are exactly the same thing. The prefix and sufix just denote if they were packaged with a starter kit, which kit, or if they were sold alone. I have even seen some reports that Samsung Mixed them up sometimes in starter kits. Below is a list of what I found after a long bit of scraping. I think it is correct, but I am not sure.

USA:
SSG-P2100T/ZA = Monsters vs Aliens.
SSG-P2100S/ZA = Shrek 3D Collection.
SSG-P2100X/ZA = How to Train Your Dragon & IMAX Tripple Pack.
SSG-2100AB/ZA = Stand alone single pair.
SSG-2200AR = Rechargable stand alone single pair.
SSG-2200KR/XC = Kid's rechargable stand alone single pair.

United Kingdom:
SSG-P2100T/XC = Monsters vs Aliens.
SSG-2100AB/X = Stand alone single pair.
SSG-2200A/XC = Adult size rechargeable.
SSG-2200AR = Rechargable stand alone single pair.
SSG-2200KR/XC = Kid's rechargable stand alone single pair.

Germany:
SSG-P2100X/ZG = IMAX Tripple Pack.
SSG-P2100T/XC = Starter kit with BD.
SSG-2100AB/XC = Single pair.

SSG-3300CR = New Bluetooth Glasses.

SSG-2100ME/ZA = Mitsubishi (Samsung) Emitter.

From what I can tell, the UK and German glasses often have an XC suffix. USA versions use the ZA suffix. There is a new 3D glasses type coming from Samsung very soon that uses Bluetooth and will not be compatible with the current IR glasses. The new Bluetooth model is SSG-3300CR.

You can also buy the Mitsubishi (aka Samsung) emitter separately now with model number SSG-2100ME/ZA. Here is is on Amazon.com USA: http://www.amazon.com/Mitsubishi-Emitter-Samsung-SSG-2100ME-ZA/dp/B004RBZ2DI/ref=sr_1_12?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1300034190&sr=1-12 and it is also on eBay. I am unsure if this emitter will work for us or not simply because I don't know for sure if it uses TTL or instead actually just sends pulses to the LED's. Same goes for that clever emitter you linked to. I would encourage you to try either one and get back to us Wink

Since your Lumagen dongle voltages look reasonable, and since the emitter is working now with the 3dtvcorp generic glasses, I think you can assume that the emitter is probably not defective. But I have no good explanation for you either Sad

craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
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Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying Wink

www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892

overclkr

Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 4227

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:07 pm Post subject:

Craig, my instructions say I have the SSG-P2100. Cliff

CIR Engineering

Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:26 pm Post subject:

overclkr wrote:

Craig, my instructions say I have the SSG-P2100.

Cliff

Cliff,

Please look at the battery cover or the mirror side of the glasses opposite the battery. There you will find the full model number.

Thanks,
craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying Wink

www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892

CIR Engineering

Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:29 pm Post subject:

Alan Head wrote:

Given that the Samsung glasses give the most ghost free image out of all the glasses I have. I wondered if anyone had tried this emitter ?

http://www.3dflightsim.com/product/product_02.htm

This just might be the answer for me and others in UK.

Alan

I sent an email through the contacts section of the web page you linked to for the emitter above. Below is what I wrote and got back. It sounds very promising.

I wrote:

Quote:

Hi,

I have been doing pioneering 3D work and am interested in possibly using your 3D emitters. I am curious about this emitter:
http://www.3dflightsim.com/product/product_02.htm

I am hoping you can answer some questions for me. Firstly, do you know if this emitter’s input protocol is the standard TTL High/Low that is used by NVIDIA and others? I would like to know if this emitter uses industry standard 3D inputs or if it instead uses something different. Can you verify that this emitter will drive Samsung brand 2100 series glasses please?

Is your emitter similar to the one sold by 3dtvcorp in function?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Universal-Gen2-Emitter-Mitsubishi-DLP-JVC-DLA-etc-/160549955278?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item256185e6ce

If you are interested, you may read about my progress here:
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=297556#297556

I am curious about your emitter because we have had mixed results with the 3dtvcorp emitter and Samsung 2100 glasses.

Kind regards,

Craig I Rounds

And the response was:

Quote:

Hello Craig,
Thanks for writing.

Yes, the 3DFS-50 emitter takes a TTL input as specified in the
Video Electronics Standards Association (VESA) specification for 3D video signals.
The standard describes a 3-pin mini-DIN cable ... the same one used on the
Mitsubishi and Samsung DLP 3D televisions, and also the 3D projectors that
have a 3D-sync connector.

Also, the emitter transmits the signal for Samsung SSG-2100 shutter-glasses.
I could custom program the emitter to operate other glasses if you are interested.

Best regards,
Alan Johnson, BSEE
3D Flight Simulation Co.

I think you should order an emitter from them and give it a shot. I may get one as well because I want to see if the timing error in the 3dtvcorp gen2 also exists in this emitter.

kr
craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying Wink

www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892

overclkr

Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 4227

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:34 pm Post subject:

CIR Engineering wrote:

overclkr wrote:

Craig, my instructions say I have the SSG-P2100.

Cliff

Cliff,

Please look at the battery cover or the mirror side of the glasses opposite the battery. There you will find the full model number.

Thanks,
craigr

SSG-P2100T/ZA Smile

CIR Engineering

Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:02 pm Post subject:

overclkr wrote:

SSG-P2100T/ZA Smile

Thanks. The five I sold you are all the same than?

craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying Wink

www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892

overclkr

Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 4227

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:37 pm Post subject:

CIR Engineering wrote:

overclkr wrote:

SSG-P2100T/ZA Smile

Thanks. The five I sold you are all the same than?

craigr

No. Of the two pairs I looked at, the first one has NO model number on it al though it looks identical.

Alan Head

Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 38

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:46 pm Post subject:

CIR Engineering wrote:

I think you should order an emitter from them and give it a shot. I may get one as well because I want to see if the timing error in the 3dtvcorp gen2 also exists in this emitter.

kr
craigr

Just ordered one, I'll keep you posted

cheers

Alan

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