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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| the_maniac wrote: | | which shutter glasses are you using ? |
Right now I am using wired "dumb" glasses like these below:
But next week I will be switching to wireless IR glasses like these:
The IR system will also work with these, but they are more expensive:
And should also be able to work with pretty much any other 3D glasses on the market now and in the near future with version two coming out soon.
craigr
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greg_mitch
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 5320
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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Those last glasses look REALLY uncomfortable.
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not wearing those stupid looking 60's reject glasses. When you figure out how to do it with contact lenses, count me in
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Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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Man tough crowd 
The system should work with an proprietary or nonproprietary glasses once it is finished... but not contact lenses.
craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
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Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
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www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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overclkr
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 4227
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: | Man tough crowd
The system should work with an proprietary or nonproprietary glasses once it is finished... but not contact lenses.
craigr |
Craig,
Since I'm upgrading my system soon it would be nice to add 3D capability to it as well. What resolution are you running at 96hz? Are you able to get 120hz working?
Cliff
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Kiev Savoie
Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | Let us see! Post a 3D picture!
Oh.... wait....
Congrats, sounds like a fun experiment! |
I am having a blast. Typically though, I went to show my wife last night and the thing just would not work at all. It worked perfectly for 36 hours and then the second I try and show my wife it stops working. I start tinkering and she says, "are you going to be messing with this for much longer."
craigr |
Ha! I can't tell you how many times something like that has happened to me! I don't bother with demos anymore unless the whole thing has been completed and polished up (which isn't too often  ).
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| overclkr wrote: |
Craig,
Since I'm upgrading my system soon it would be nice to add 3D capability to it as well. What resolution are you running at 96hz? Are you able to get 120hz working?
Cliff |
With the Radiance processor we will be starting at 96Hz during the alpha and beta testing. The resolution I run is only limited by the bandwidth of the pipe. So right now with the PLUS option I can run any resolution under 185MHz. Since in my earlier testing for Lumagen I was able to operate the processor at near 200 MHz without any problems, we may test higher clock rates again for 3D applications on CRT for higher resolution potential.
There is a slight chance that the Radiance could even support full 1080p 96Hz, but this is pushing it and unlikely as it requires nearly 238MHz. Also Moome told me that there is no way his current IFB can support that much bandwidth. He says a newer HDMI chip that is in development might do it, but these chips aren't out yet and Moome would have to redesign the IFB again. Add to that a single or stacked projector can't come close to fully resolving 1080p 96Hz. Not to mention that HDMI cabling will become increasingly problematic at such high clocks. Digital noise and artifacts would be a real issue in many systems. I told Moome I don't think it is worth his effort to redesign a card that is very good already to shoot for a bandwidth that is probably impossible to justify and most likely won't work on the Radiance.
We'll (Lumagen and I) only be testing with 96Hz to start because this is a simple doubling of the frame-packed input from a 3D Bluray player output as frame-sequential (frame doubling is easier than multiplying by 2.5). Before the 3D for CRT feature is released Lumagen is also hopping to support 120Hz 3D for CRT. Since the bandwidth is limited, if you opt to run 120Hz you will obviously have to reduce the resolution further. Ultimately it will be a choice on which is more important; higher resolution or higher refresh rate.
The only setup I know of that could potentially run 1080p 3D at 120Hz is Tom's Marquee blend with his two Radiance processors He'll have the bandwidth capability running in tandem with the two Moome IFB's and two Radiance processors and two projectors.
However, as I look at 3D on my G90 now, I see very little difference in flicker with 96Hz compared to 120Hz. So right now with the little testing I have done I am leaning towards 96Hz as the best option. 120Hz will also be dimmer because the shutter glasses will be closed slightly longer blocking more light. 120Hz will also have more ghosting problems than 96Hz due to phosphor decay rates.
I would like to see 3D on your G90 stack sometime Cliff. With two G90 projectors 3D should look really nice. I am tempted to throw another G90 on the ceiling here (but I swore I would never run a CRT stack or blend in my own setup). Another nice option for a stack or blend is that you could reduce the contrast setting to reduce ghosting problems. The lower the white level the less ghosting we should see.
craigr
_________________
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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For 3D HD all that's really needed is 1280X720P @ 96HZ or possibly 1920X1080I @ 96HZ. There's no reason at all to use 1080P for 3D. Nothing about 3D requires that resolution. And because of what happens with the signal and the effects of the 3d glasses, you'll not notice the lines or any finer detail.
The systems I'm familiar with is running 1280X1024 (4:3) 96 or higher refresh, and that's on both CRT and Digitals. And that's the rate even on the blended systems even the ones using the 4K projectors.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | For 3D HD all that's really needed is 1280X720P @ 96HZ. There's no reason at all to use 1080P for 3D. Nothing about 3D requires that resolution. And because of what happens with the signal and the effects of the 3d glasses, you'll not notice the lines or any finer detail.
The systems I'm familiar with is running 1280X1024 (4:3) 96 or higher refresh, and that's on both CRT and Digitals. And that's the rate even on the blended systems even the ones using the 4K projectors. |
Yeah, I totally agree Mike. The more I look at this stuff the more I realize that resolution isn't that important (to a point). Lumagen, Moome, and myself all seem to think that a very good starting point will be 720p at 96Hz and 120Hz.
craigr
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Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
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Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: | | mp20748 wrote: | For 3D HD all that's really needed is 1280X720P @ 96HZ. There's no reason at all to use 1080P for 3D. Nothing about 3D requires that resolution. And because of what happens with the signal and the effects of the 3d glasses, you'll not notice the lines or any finer detail.
The systems I'm familiar with is running 1280X1024 (4:3) 96 or higher refresh, and that's on both CRT and Digitals. And that's the rate even on the blended systems even the ones using the 4K projectors. |
Yeah, I totally agree Mike. The more I look at this stuff the more I realize that resolution isn't that important (to a point). Lumagen, Moome, and myself all seem to think that a very good starting point will be 720p at 96Hz and 120Hz.
craigr |
The higher the scan rate, the softer the image gets. Even the standard 1280X1024 seems to be too much for a 4:3 setup when you put the 3D signal into the setup, and it gets worse once you put the glasses on.
On the systems I'm familiar with, you can switch between MONO (non 3D) and STEREO (3D). That is when you're able to see the difference between the two signals on your display.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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96HZ is fine. But the systems that display a lot of fast motion images, are 104HZ or higher.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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cinema mad
Joined: 25 Nov 2009
Posts: 219
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:00 am Post subject: |
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From the sound of it I gather A Blend is the best option for Full on 3D Due to the Bandwidth limitation of
running 1080p @ such high refresh rates on A single CRT, not to mention the extra light output you gain
from A blend so long as the Screen size isnt over the top..
But as MP pointed out 720p, 1280x1024p or 1080i would be fine for A single CRT so long as the Screen
size is kept on the smaller side 92"108"
Craig while its still early days, are you prepared to go as far as installing A new Green tube
with the P43 phosphor if there's no getting around the Gosting issue ?...
Cheers...
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dvh99
Joined: 25 Dec 2009
Posts: 2158
Location: nederland
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:14 am Post subject: |
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a blend at 1920*1080*120hz has a pixelclock of 1300*1120*120=175mhz so that might be too much for most pjs.
at96hz it is 140mhz.
there is a pt22 for sale in the buy and sell topic.
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marquee 9500ultra HD10L moome hdmi1.3 v3+ some mods.
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the_maniac
Joined: 10 Jul 2009
Posts: 111
Location: Austria - Europe
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:56 am Post subject: |
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where did you get those glasses for 15USD ?
edit: found it already on ebay but also found ASUS 3D glasses for 5USD for local pickup in my town.
gonna grab them today and also gonna try 3D
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cinema mad
Joined: 25 Nov 2009
Posts: 219
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| dvh99 wrote: | a blend at 1920*1080*120hz has a pixelclock of 1300*1120*120=175mhz so that might be too much for most pjs.
at96hz it is 140mhz.
there is a pt22 for sale in the buy and sell topic. |
Yeah I see what you are saying even at 96Hz the Bandwidth is to high in my opinion but if you set up 2:35:1 or 2:40:1 aspect ratio, so 1920x817/800 @96Hz on A blend that would bring the bandwidth down a little..
Cheers...
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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I almost bought that one at BB the other day, but I am not sure what glasses it will work with. Sony, Samsung, and the like are all using their own proprietary IR emissions for their own glasses at this time; you can't use Samsung glasses to watch 3D on a Sony. The emitter I ordered is programmable with dip switches so it can work with any glasses as well as the new version two glasses comming out very soon. The emitter I ordered is also around $50.
craigr
_________________
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Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| cinema mad wrote: | From the sound of it I gather A Blend is the best option for Full on 3D Due to the Bandwidth limitation of
running 1080p @ such high refresh rates on A single CRT, not to mention the extra light output you gain
from A blend so long as the Screen size isnt over the top..
But as MP pointed out 720p, 1280x1024p or 1080i would be fine for A single CRT so long as the Screen
size is kept on the smaller side 92"108"
Craig while its still early days, are you prepared to go as far as installing A new Green tube
with the P43 phosphor if there's no getting around the Gosting issue ?...
Cheers... |
Right now Lumagen does not want to support 1080i for 3D CRT... if they ever even get the 3D CRT released at all. I am softly pushing them to follow through on the CRT 3D release and I am reasonably sure they will do so as with the 1080p 72Hz option (it took me two years of gentle prodding on that one so we are well ahead of schedule for 3D). I don't want to put too much on Lumagen's plate at once to make the task more daunting by asking for a 1080i output mode as well. Once we get a 96Hz and 120Hz progressive CRT 3D output mode, I will see if they will develop an interlaced output mode at 144Hz, 120Hz, and 96Hz for 3D CRT. I do think we will see a negative impact on image quality with 3D interlaced though.
I really think that 720p or there abouts running 120Hz is going to wind up being about the best solution. While wearing LCD shutter glasses you don't see the fine details that you get with 1080p.
I personally don't want 3D bad enough to use a P43 green or to run a stack or blend. 2D looks so good on my G90 and that is what I actually care about. 3D is a gimmick and is fun to ogle at, and it is fun for 3D PS3 games. It is also fun to do on a projector that is twelve years old when the industry is pushing 3D digital as the awesome new option. However, 3D is distracting on all the movies I have seen and it takes away from the realism. I see 3D as a novelty and a fun project / challenge to run on the CRT, but it certainly isn't going to usurp my 2D environment.
Another option that I might consider to make 3D better on my system would be to switch to a higher gain screen. The SilverStar or STK200 come to mind. That way you can get a brighter image without a stack, or you could get less ghosting with a lower contrast setting.
craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| the_maniac wrote: | where did you get those glasses for 15USD ?
edit: found it already on ebay but also found ASUS 3D glasses for 5USD for local pickup in my town.
gonna grab them today and also gonna try 3D |
I have heard of the ASUS glasses but haven't seen them. Can you post a link?
craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| cinema mad wrote: | | dvh99 wrote: | a blend at 1920*1080*120hz has a pixelclock of 1300*1120*120=175mhz so that might be too much for most pjs.
at96hz it is 140mhz.
there is a pt22 for sale in the buy and sell topic. |
Yeah I see what you are saying even at 96Hz the Bandwidth is to high in my opinion but if you set up 2:35:1 or 2:40:1 aspect ratio, so 1920x817/800 @96Hz on A blend that would bring the bandwidth down a little..
Cheers... |
From what I hear, most if not all the bluray 3D titles will be full 16x9 though. Because of this, we probably won't have much use for 2.35 3D modes. Time will tell.
craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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