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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:50 am Post subject: |
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We will see once they are shipping and a good reviewer gets one to see what the native on/off is. I have heard that it should be no worse than 15 to 20 k to 1. If that is the case, then that is a significant leap over the LCDs. It also comes with a dynamic iris. I know a lot of people don't like them, but with a high native on/off it might be a lot less noticeable. If you buy from AVS, then Jason QCs everyone and fails any pj that doesn't meet his spec.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| greg_mitch wrote: | | Spanky Ham wrote: | | Sorry, the Panny would have to street for under $1400 for it to be good. Most people around these parts love on/off cr and the LCDs just have poor native cr. |
Well SC has seen both (you probably have too) and he had very positive things to say about the AE4000 a few months ago. Now that he has seen Epson's new offerings, I am anxious to hear his opinion.
Are you claiming the Epsons are on par with the JVC's (within the same price ranges obviously)? |
Greg... It's been since January since I saw the Panny, and it wasn't an AE4000 - it was an AE3000. It was GuamGuam from the Iowa Meet thread, and I think he has about an 11-foot wide Seymour AV Centerstage AT. The new Epson was mounted crooked, probably shooting an 8- or 9-foot wide image, and I don't even know what the screen was. I was also sitting probably 1.5x screen widths, too. It's so hard to make meaningful comparisons at the shows... The lighting is rarely good, the screens are all different, some of the projectors are prototypes... I think we'll have to wait for real calibrated numbers and production projectors, but I'd guess the comparably-priced JVC's and Epson should be pretty competitive.
It's getting pretty awesome to see what these machines are doing at this point - especially for a cheap skate like me. I mean, every new crop of machines keeps getting better and better... RS2's now go used for well under $2500, RS1's under $1500... I'll be able to replace my CRT when the time comes with a machine I'll be perfectly happy with for $1000-1500. I can handle that. Hell, I might be able to essentially replace my machine every year or two with something better for not that much money. The way things are going, I'd say I'll be switching about two years from now. Hell, I don't know... Maybe I should switch next fall while the G70 is still worth something.
SC
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greg_mitch
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 5320
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| Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | | We will see once they are shipping and a good reviewer gets one to see what the native on/off is. I have heard that it should be no worse than 15 to 20 k to 1. If that is the case, then that is a significant leap over the LCDs. It also comes with a dynamic iris. I know a lot of people don't like them, but with a high native on/off it might be a lot less noticeable. If you buy from AVS, then Jason QCs everyone and fails any pj that doesn't meet his spec. |
Does AVS sell Epson?
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greg_mitch
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 5320
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| Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | greg_mitch wrote: | | Spanky Ham wrote: | | Sorry, the Panny would have to street for under $1400 for it to be good. Most people around these parts love on/off cr and the LCDs just have poor native cr. |
Well SC has seen both (you probably have too) and he had very positive things to say about the AE4000 a few months ago. Now that he has seen Epson's new offerings, I am anxious to hear his opinion.
Are you claiming the Epsons are on par with the JVC's (within the same price ranges obviously)? |
Greg... It's been since January since I saw the Panny, and it wasn't an AE4000 - it was an AE3000. It was GuamGuam from the Iowa Meet thread, and I think he has about an 11-foot wide Seymour AV Centerstage AT. The new Epson was mounted crooked, probably shooting an 8- or 9-foot wide image, and I don't even know what the screen was. I was also sitting probably 1.5x screen widths, too. It's so hard to make meaningful comparisons at the shows... The lighting is rarely good, the screens are all different, some of the projectors are prototypes... I think we'll have to wait for real calibrated numbers and production projectors, but I'd guess the comparably-priced JVC's and Epson should be pretty competitive.
It's getting pretty awesome to see what these machines are doing at this point - especially for a cheap skate like me. I mean, every new crop of machines keeps getting better and better... RS2's now go used for well under $2500, RS1's under $1500... I'll be able to replace my CRT when the time comes with a machine I'll be perfectly happy with for $1000-1500. I can handle that. Hell, I might be able to essentially replace my machine every year or two with something better for not that much money. The way things are going, I'd say I'll be switching about two years from now. Hell, I don't know... Maybe I should switch next fall while the G70 is still worth something.
SC |
Well that didn't help me any! 
I guess I will have to be more patient. Although I went down to watch MNF last night and the damn thing just looks good...even on my completely botched, havne't moved anything since I moved the screen 3' closer, terrible convergance, picture squeezed and shifted setup.
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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SC, I would hope you see RS2's go for well under $2K, because AVS was selling B-stock RS10's for $2K in June and RS20's for $3K. These B-stocks came with a full two year manufacturer warranty. I certainly wouldn't pay more than $1K for an RS1 or $1500 for an RS2.
BTW, when i was looking, some resellers still had left over A-stock of RS10's and 20's. Add that to the left over RS15's, 25's and 35's and one could image the markets all becoming depressed. Heck, I'm already entertaining low-balling some folks for their used RS20's as spare [parts].
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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I was just going by what people were asking for on ebay and craigslist, Wan. Obviously, selling prices are probably lower. I know AVS was selling B-stock RS10's for $2k in June, and forced the value down on the older machines, but that doesn't mean any RS2 owners would actually want to let their machines go for that newly reduced value. Or, maybe they would... I don't know... I was just talking ballpark numbers.
I just stopped into a local dealer over lunch today to look at a machine for a buddy and looked at the Epson 8500 they had hanging on the ceiling... They had it running on a ~110" diag 1.78 Dalite Matte 1.0... I didn't do any critical viewing - just watched a few minutes of Lord of the Rings without full light control, but man - what a great looking picture for a ~$2100 machine. If the new 8350 has the same chip/engine in it, and that kind of picture quality is now available for around $1300, it's pretty easy to see why 8" machines aren't worth much anymore.
I asked if they'd done any scope installs, and he said they'd only had one customer even ask about it all year. We're such an isolated, special-interest lot, aren't we?
SC
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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Holy sh*t, I forgot to mention the 4K demo that Spanky was talking about!
OK, so this screen was somewhere in the 20-foot wide ballpark. The demo room (ballroom) must have had about 4-5 rows of 30 seats each. Sitting in the front row, you were probably at around .5 screen widths. You couldn't see pixels. No way, no how. Maybe on something bright white with super fine detail, and if you walked up to more like 4-5 feet, then you could see a little.
Man, 4k is where it's at, baby. Holy crap, gimme 4K. GORGEOUS. Spanky mentioned the wind generator... Damn, a wind generator on the horizon probably two miles from the camera, and not only could you see and tell that it was a wind generator, but you could see the blades spinning and make out the individual blades. Fine detail to die for. There was one shot that really blew me away... A girl standing in a stone arch, and the camera must have had a long(ish) lens and wide open, because the background 50-100 feet behind the girl in the arch had a nice soft focus to it. The contrast between the insane detail in the foreground (girl, moss-covered stone) and the background... Holy sh*t, now THAT was THREE-FRICKIN'-DEE!!!
Screw 3D - I want resolution. I want to sit at <1x screen width and not see pixels even on bright white titles. I want the iPhone "Retina Display", only on my wall!!! 
It was awesome.
SC
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dturco
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3778
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland
TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner
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| Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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I just stopped into a local dealer over lunch today to look at a machine for a buddy and looked at the Epson 8500 they had hanging on the ceiling... They had it running on a ~110" diag 1.78 Dalite Matte 1.0... I didn't do any critical viewing - just watched a few minutes of Lord of the Rings without full light control, but man - what a great looking picture for a ~$2100 machine. If the new 8350 has the same chip/engine in it, and that kind of picture quality is now available for around $1300,
Ooohhh maybe I won't retube. 
shipping tomorrow
https://www.visualapex.com/Epson/Projector-Specifications.asp?For-The=Home-Cinema-8350
What to do, what to do. |
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Firefly rules. Can't stop the signal.
http://www.hulu.com/firefly
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I don't know if I'd compare an entry-level 3LCD to a 9500LC Ultra, but I do know I'd have hard time sinking $1500 into a couple of new tubes for a CRT - any CRT. If you haven't seen an RS10 or RS20, you should find a decent dealer with a decent room and screen and go check one out. You might be surprised.
SC
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dturco
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3778
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland
TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner
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| Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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Did you see the RS20 new for $1500 somewhere?
_________________
Firefly rules. Can't stop the signal.
http://www.hulu.com/firefly
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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Here's a few more pics from the show, and then I'll probably be off the grid for most of the rest of the week - work's too piled up.
Here's the Epson 31000 - the middle of the new reflective (LCoS) line...
Jim from eeColor talking about their new HDMI "ColorBox"...
eeColor TruVue Vango LED/Single-chip DLP projector; that's a DPI machine off the right side...
TruVue eeColor Processor...
German company ad notum and their very cool mirror-based displays...
Steinway Lyngdorf (yes, that Steinway) and their mega-buck music system with free-air drivers. I don't remember the price, but I think retail was over $150k. Crazy stuff. Check it out...
http://www.steinwaylyngdorf.com/Model_D-45.aspx
They had some home theater gear there, too but I didn't even notice that - it was all overshadowed by the giant stereo rig.
Last, but not least, here's the JVC lineup. The old machines are on the right, new machines on the left. The new machines are bigger; good for JVC!
Here it is... The BEAST! 4K, baby and 3500 lumens.
Upper-left 2/3 of the screen, I'd guess. You can see how the projector was showing a LOT more detail than you'd usually a see with a camera pointed at a portion of the screen.
Spanky looking very closely at the... screen. That's seriously about how close you had to get to see the pixel structure unless it was something like a fine white type on a black background. I want.
That's it! Later!
SC
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greg_mitch
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 5320
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| Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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Are you sure he was looking for pixels?
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | I asked if they'd done any scope installs, and he said they'd only had one customer even ask about it all year. We're such an isolated, special-interest lot, aren't we? |
99.9% of people only know what they see in local showrooms, so most don't know about scope (CIH). I'm surprised that a dealer would even know about it.
Kal
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:24 am Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | Well, I don't know if I'd compare an entry-level 3LCD to a 9500LC Ultra, but I do know I'd have hard time sinking $1500 into a couple of new tubes for a CRT - any CRT. If you haven't seen an RS10 or RS20, you should find a decent dealer with a decent room and screen and go check one out. You might be surprised.
SC |
I doubt any dealer still demo'ing an RS10/20 is worth doing business with. Last year's models were the RS15/25/35, and the year before that the RS10/20. If a B&M dealer hasn't updated the JVC demo to at least the RS25/35 then they are not investing in their business. I know of a shot like that near me, and they lost on everything I bought recently, because they were demo'ing a two year old Epson and nothing current (not even the outgoing model).
BTW, while I find the Espons being of value to someone, way too many posts in threads on AVS highlight the poor quality in manufacturing in which many folks on AVS not only had to have Epson replace their projectors, but multiple times. Unless you can find a dealer willing to open the box before handing it to you to insure panel alignment, no way they are milking me.  And based on that kind of poor manufacturing results, I hate to see what happens with their new reflective LCD is they are truly gone the LCoS, which requiring even tighter tolerances.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:23 am Post subject: |
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| greg_mitch wrote: | | Spanky Ham wrote: | | We will see once they are shipping and a good reviewer gets one to see what the native on/off is. I have heard that it should be no worse than 15 to 20 k to 1. If that is the case, then that is a significant leap over the LCDs. It also comes with a dynamic iris. I know a lot of people don't like them, but with a high native on/off it might be a lot less noticeable. If you buy from AVS, then Jason QCs everyone and fails any pj that doesn't meet his spec. |
Does AVS sell Epson? |
Yes, they do.
Wan,
A) Did you go to Cedia?
B) AVS QCs everyone they ship out.
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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Nope. I wasn't aware that AVS sold Epson. Are they selling the retail line or the turnkey/installer line?
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 3:40 am Post subject: |
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| WanMan wrote: | | Nope. I wasn't aware that AVS sold Epson. Are they selling the retail line or the turnkey/installer line? |
I don't keep up with the differences. Since I don't care about the LCD models, there are only the three LCOS models that interest me.
Why did you decide not to go?
I took a pic of the scene Crabb was talking about. Unfortunately you cant really make out the windmill that well in the background.
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Tom.W
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 6635
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:13 am Post subject: |
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Great post and thanks for the photos ! 
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