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antorsae
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 297
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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I am running a little side experiment:
- Leave a small glass of:
A) 50% distilled water + 50% glycerol
B) 100% mono-ethilene glycol
with a few computer screws at the bottom of each glass...
...for a few weeks to see if the screws get corroded or not.
At first sight, the water/glycerol solution looks more clean (transparent) to the eye than the glycol one. I'll probably add a few drops of bleach to both glasses which is what I'd do anyway to kill any floating bacteria.
We'll see in a few weeks.
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atomiccow
Joined: 11 Jul 2009
Posts: 89
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:10 am Post subject: |
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Fascinating thread idea. Distilled water seems so obvious and why not? But the price of Glycol is so relatively affordable and once its in the chambers it tends to just stay there. Its certainly easy to do neatly. I just couldn't imagine risking using something different. If I was having the invasive surgery done I'd get silicone breast implants because they have to feel better than salt water. I wouldn't use water just because there was a miniscule chance of damage. If I'm getting jubblies I want the best jubblies possible. The tubes are the jubblies of your projector. Put the right stuff in there.
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:23 am Post subject: |
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| atomiccow wrote: | | Fascinating thread idea. Distilled water seems so obvious and why not? But the price of Glycol is so relatively affordable and once its in the chambers it tends to just stay there. Its certainly easy to do neatly. I just couldn't imagine risking using something different. If I was having the invasive surgery done I'd get silicone breast implants because they have to feel better than salt water. I wouldn't use water just because there was a miniscule chance of damage. If I'm getting jubblies I want the best jubblies possible. The tubes are the jubblies of your projector. Put the right stuff in there. |
What's next? Tube augmentation surgery? Wait a sec, that's for Marquees when you go from 8" to 9" tubes 
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Tom.W
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 6635
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:27 am Post subject: |
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I think the fun is in the experiment. Personally I will stick with glycol but it is an interesting idea and who knows for sure... Water seems a bit extreme but maybe NASA has a new clear coolant we just haven't tried yet. 
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:27 am Post subject: |
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Who said glycol was the best stuff for tubes? Scott mentioned that they use to put a mix in their pjs twenty years ago. I have put glycol in an Aquafina bottle and then placed it next to a fresh bottle of Aquafina and to me pure water looks clearer.
Ant,
I would think the containers need to be sealed to avoid contamination.
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atomiccow
Joined: 11 Jul 2009
Posts: 89
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:51 am Post subject: |
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| AnalogRocks wrote: | | atomiccow wrote: | | Fascinating thread idea. Distilled water seems so obvious and why not? But the price of Glycol is so relatively affordable and once its in the chambers it tends to just stay there. Its certainly easy to do neatly. I just couldn't imagine risking using something different. If I was having the invasive surgery done I'd get silicone breast implants because they have to feel better than salt water. I wouldn't use water just because there was a miniscule chance of damage. If I'm getting jubblies I want the best jubblies possible. The tubes are the jubblies of your projector. Put the right stuff in there. |
What's next? Tube augmentation surgery? Wait a sec, that's for Marquees when you go from 8" to 9" tubes |
Everybody wants bigger tubes. Good analogy.
"Nine inchers hoooooh hooh hooohhhh."
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antorsae
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 297
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: |
Ant,
I would think the containers need to be sealed to avoid contamination. |
I put aluminum foil to cover both glasses... Not perfect but a good start.
Btw, does anybody know why glycol tends to get YELLOW with time?
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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That is probably good. If I think of it, then the next time that I am in the grocery store I will get some baby food jars and Aquafina.
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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Isn't Aquafina the one that's just filtered tap water from an unknown tap?
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antorsae
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 297
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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I think so.
They say it's PURIFIED water :-O
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| AnalogRocks wrote: | | Isn't Aquafina the one that's just filtered tap water from an unknown tap? |
| antorsae wrote: | I think so.
They say it's PURIFIED water :-O |
I have seen this come up from time to time and my reply is who cares what is the original source. The filtration system that I put in my parents house is being fed by their tap. I could hook it up to the waste water line if I wanted to and still achieve the same results. At the end of the day, it is what is in or in this case what isn't in the water. I had read somewhere that Aquafina was using a RO+DI filtration system. Like I said, I haven't measured it, but it looks and tastes pretty pure to me.
I might add that Coke's Dasani has minerals added to it. I can drink it, but the addition of the minerals gives it a taste that I don't particularly care for.
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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Tom.W
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 6635
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | Who said glycol was the best stuff for tubes? Scott mentioned that they use to put a mix in their pjs twenty years ago. I have put glycol in an Aquafina bottle and then placed it next to a fresh bottle of Aquafina and to me pure water looks clearer.
Ant,
I would think the containers need to be sealed to avoid contamination. |
You have to ask yourself why (as far as I know) all the modern projection CRTs use glycol. Perhaps part of the reason is they can ship and store their projectors in sub freezing weather...
I'm sure the guys that designed the projectors knew something about what they were doing when they chose to use glycol.
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Ben851
Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Posts: 221
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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I used to work at a water store specializing in purified water (RO and DI). By the time we're through the filtration process it is PURE. Who cares where it came from and what it used to look like. Sure, the city water TDS was anywhere between 150-250ppm, but our RO was less than 5ppm, and distilled (which was fed RO water as source) was usually 0.5ppm.
I would much rather drink RO water that came from a public source than "Spring Water" that basically came from a hole in the ground. Spring Water = Well Water.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Tom.W wrote: | | Spanky Ham wrote: | Who said glycol was the best stuff for tubes? Scott mentioned that they use to put a mix in their pjs twenty years ago. I have put glycol in an Aquafina bottle and then placed it next to a fresh bottle of Aquafina and to me pure water looks clearer.
Ant,
I would think the containers need to be sealed to avoid contamination. |
You have to ask yourself why (as far as I know) all the modern projection CRTs use glycol. Perhaps part of the reason is they can ship and store their projectors in sub freezing weather...
I'm sure the guys that designed the projectors knew something about what they were doing when they chose to use glycol. |
And maybe cold weather shipping was the main reason. Also, some of these sims may be in some temperature extreme environments. The product was most likely dictated for the application not the performance. Would VDC switch to water if it performed better? Maybe, but then they still have to deal with the other issues and glycol is a known commodity at this point. You might say it is a known commodity so why mess with it. Antorsae already gave a couple of reasons. I might add that if pure water gives slightly better performance then who wouldn't want to try it. The cost is next to nothing, as Aquafina will set you back about $1.50.
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Tom.W
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 6635
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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I'm looking forward to the test results ! You never really know until you try it...
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antorsae
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 297
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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I think water alone may not pass military certification in regards to semi-extreme weather conditions. Any equipment that basically breaks at -4C is a no go for any military application.
I believe this is why Scott mentioned that they used a 50/50 water/glycerol solution back in pre-AMPRO times. Here's the freezing point of varios glycerol/water mixes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycerol#Physical_properties - 50/50 freezes at -21.9C; looks safe to me.
I understand VDC sometimes just uses glycol (w/o glycerol) in their tubes. I think this is a BAD idea, since I believe one of the uses of glycerol w/ glycol is to satiate its appetite to absorb water; which IS an issue in humid environments and with stock bellows.
Re: corrosion I found this:
http://www.usmotors.com/products/ProFacts/tableof.htm
Check these out re: effects of various fluids on aluminium
| Quote: |
Ethylene Glycol: has negligible action on aluminum at room or boiling temperatures. Contaminated solutions may be inhibited effectively in many cases. Certain plastics containing ethylene glycol are formulated in aluminum vessels to avoid discoloration.
Glycerine: and its solutions have no action on aluminum. Aluminum stills, condensers, heat exchangers, receivers, storage tanks and tank cars are in service with natural and synthetic glycerine.
Waters: vary in their action on aluminum. Distilled water regularly is stored and piped in aluminum equipment. High quality deionized water has no action on aluminum. Unpolluted rain water does not corrode aluminum. Fresh and salt waters in the pH range 4.5 - 8.5 cause only negligible attack of aluminum even at the boiling point, but certain of these waters cause pitting because they contain traces of heavy metal salts. Alclad alloys prevent premature perforation under these circumstances and are recommended for equipment handling salt water. A number of aluminum heat exchangers are in service employing salt water cooling. Aluminum may be used with practically all recirculated waters.
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If the above applies to Marquee chambers are all basically OK.
So why did they discard the 50/50 water glycerol solution? My guess is b/c glycerol was more expensive than glycol back then (it still is), and even 50/50 water/glycerol solution was more expensive than a 70/30 glycol/glycerol one.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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So far Andres, in the one Tube I have re-bellowed , I use the Glycol from MCM electronics, I think it is straight Glycol. After almost one year it is still as clear as the day I put it in. And this Housing was painted with Satin Black Epoxy paint due to the anodizing being completely gone and only bare aluminum exposed that was severely pitted. I can not be sure if any water was absorbed into the chamber but the bellows are still nice and spongy and have not swelled at all.
I really am glad Apple Rubber was able to do the vapor transmission test on the original Bellow and compare them to the new material. A 7x better result in stopping moisture was the outcome of the test. So from the bellow stand point I do not think it will matter what is used. Hopefully Mike and I will be able to test
the eco freindly glycol substitute soon and have good results.
If this stuff works it be easy to ship to europe since its a non toxic material.
Athanasios
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Tom.W
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Nashou66
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