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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| HogPilot wrote: | | LEDs aren't quite able to offer up a single wavelength of light (as lasers do), |
*Duh*. I was mixing LEDs and Laser LEDs in my mind. My bad.
| Quote: | Actually, here's a cine4home measurement of a common FP LED light source:
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Interesting. So that's the combined spectrum of all 3 R/G/B LEDs?
I haven't dug up the exact wavelengths of the SMPTE primaries but it sure does look like those LED spectra hit the pure primaries pretty well.
Thanks for the CMS explanation. I sort of thought that was how it worked, but I wasn't sure that e.g. mixing a bit of green into the pure red would pull it closer to the green primary.
Gary
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | | Quote: | Actually, here's a cine4home measurement of a common FP LED light source:
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Interesting. So that's the combined spectrum of all 3 R/G/B LEDs? |
As far as I can tell from the translated German text, yes.
| garyfritz wrote: | | I haven't dug up the exact wavelengths of the SMPTE primaries but it sure does look like those LED spectra hit the pure primaries pretty well. |
From Wikipedia (article on Primary Color): The CIE 1931 color space defines monochromatic primary colors with wavelengths of 435.8 nm (violet), 546.1 nm (green) and 700 nm (red)...No real display device uses such primaries, as the extreme wavelengths used for violet and red result in a very low luminous efficiency.
I've had no luck in digging up what the NTSC or SMPTE-C wavelength standards are - if you find it definitely post it here.
| garyfritz wrote: | Thanks for the CMS explanation. I sort of thought that was how it worked, but I wasn't sure that e.g. mixing a bit of green into the pure red would pull it closer to the green primary.
Gary |
The whole concept of a CMS was a total anathema to me until I read Kal's Calibration for Dummies guide, that was a real eye opener. Then when I actually did my first calibration with the Radiance's CMS - which does it in RGB space rather than HSL like described in Kal's guide - that was another huge learning point as well.
_________________
| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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yonexsp
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 311
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| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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What about a used RS2U, there is one on the GON, how does that stack up with say the RS15?
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perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2920
Location: Ithaca, NY
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:06 am Post subject: |
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Isn't Luminus PhlatLight a character in the Harry Potter series? 
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| yonexsp wrote: | | What about a used RS2U, there is one on the GON, how does that stack up with say the RS15? |
I saw that, that's a pretty good deal for an RS2 - assuming convergence and everything else is good, that pricing is more like used RS1 territory. I'm pretty sure I've done business with that guy once in the past, and if he is who I think he is he was very good to work with. Plus it only has 500 hours on the bulb, so you have 2500 left but it probably won't dim much more than it is now.
The biggest difference with the RS15 is going to be light output - the RS15 will put out significantly more light, plus you have the manual iris on the RS15. Max contrast should be very close between the two units, but you have to trade between max lumens and max contrast with the RS15 when using the iris. Both units have a set of parametric greyscale/gamma controls that can be used for calibration, but no CMS. Also, there have been some significant panel and manufacturing improvements since the RS2, so you'll most likely get a sharper image and better chance of not having any crazy panel alignment issues. Although to be honest the JVCs have a pretty good track record of having pretty decent alignment to begin with, no bad misalignment trends like with the Epsons.
I don't know what pricing you're finding with the RS15, but given the choice between the two I'd go with the RS15 if you are willing to spend the money. If you are looking for bang for your buck, I'd jump on the RS2 on Videogon.
_________________
| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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yonexsp
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 311
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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What about the Sony VPL-VW60? Costco are running a special in Canada right now for $2299
The RS15 sells for $5500 in Canada, is it worth twice the price over a new Sony?
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nuttall_chris
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 832
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| yonexsp wrote: | What about the Sony VPL-VW60? Costco are running a special in Canada right now for $2299
The RS15 sells for $5500 in Canada, is it worth twice the price over a new Sony? |
The RS15 may sell for $5500 in Canada but I expect you can get one from a reputable dealer like AVS for around $4000US or less. When I bought my RS2 a few years ago the best price I could get in Canada was $8000 but I purchased from AVS for $5600 and they threw in an extra bulb...and helped get it across the border with "miminal" taxes
Chris.
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yonexsp
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 311
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| nuttall_chris wrote: | | yonexsp wrote: | What about the Sony VPL-VW60? Costco are running a special in Canada right now for $2299
The RS15 sells for $5500 in Canada, is it worth twice the price over a new Sony? |
The RS15 may sell for $5500 in Canada but I expect you can get one from a reputable dealer like AVS for around $4000US or less. When I bought my RS2 a few years ago the best price I could get in Canada was $8000 but I purchased from AVS for $5600 and they threw in an extra bulb...and helped get it across the border with "miminal" taxes
Chris. |
Still the RS15 will be close to twice the price after all said and done. Is it twice the PJ?
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| HogPilot wrote: | | I've had no luck in digging up what the NTSC or SMPTE-C wavelength standards are - if you find it definitely post it here. |
Nope, no luck here either. There are a zillion color calculators out there, but they all seem to do coordinate conversions like xyY <--> XYZ <--> RGB etc. None of the ones I found calculate wavelength.
I suspect that may be because any point on the interior of the CIE diagram probably doesn't have a single wavelength -- it's a mixture of several wavelengths. Points around the perimeter of the CIE diagram might be pure colors that could be described by a single wavelength but I'm not sure of that either.
So if I'm right, the SMPTE coordinates *can't* be described by a wavelength. A wavelength at best describes a point around the CIE perimeter. A range of wavelengths (e.g. as shown on the spectral diagram of LED light) would correspond to a range of points on the perimeter. And maybe the summation (integration?) of all those points results in a point on the interior of the CIE diagram -- which would be the primaries exhibited by the projectors that use those LEDs.
I think. 
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | Hog,
While in theory CRTers would prefer LCOS, there are a good number who have went DLP. |
You beat me to it. I was going to mention this. I thought it was a foregone conclusion that I would go LCoS because that is what CRTers like. However, I started to really like the super high ANSI CR, sharpness, and "pop" that I get with DLP. To me, the LCoS looks more like film in most respects where the DLP looks more like real life. So, pick your poison.
I'm still not a fan of LCD but a great many folks are very happy with the Epson and Pannys. I think you will be surprised when you switch (especially if you do CIH) that you may end up liking digital more than you thought. I know that is what happened to me. I can still see a very good CRT expertly set up (which is < 1% of the CRTs in use) and see what pros it has, but overall, I have no desire to have a CRT hanging in my theater anymore.
As much as folks on this site rail against digital, replacing the CRT in their theater with even something like the Epson would improve the picture quality of well over 80% of the people on this site. They don't like to admit it, but it is a fact. 
_________________
Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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"As much as folks on this site rail against digital, replacing the CRT in their theater with even something like the Epson would improve the picture quality of well over 80% of the people on this site. They don't like to admit it, but it is a fact."
Thems fightin words 
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Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:34 am Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | Spanky Ham wrote: | Hog,
While in theory CRTers would prefer LCOS, there are a good number who have went DLP. |
You beat me to it. I was going to mention this. I thought it was a foregone conclusion that I would go LCoS because that is what CRTers like. However, I started to really like the super high ANSI CR, sharpness, and "pop" that I get with DLP. To me, the LCoS looks more like film in most respects where the DLP looks more like real life. So, pick your poison.
I'm still not a fan of LCD but a great many folks are very happy with the Epson and Pannys. I think you will be surprised when you switch (especially if you do CIH) that you may end up liking digital more than you thought. I know that is what happened to me. I can still see a very good CRT expertly set up (which is < 1% of the CRTs in use) and see what pros it has, but overall, I have no desire to have a CRT hanging in my theater anymore.
As much as folks on this site rail against digital, replacing the CRT in their theater with even something like the Epson would improve the picture quality of well over 80% of the people on this site. They don't like to admit it, but it is a fact. |
I like the Marantz and it does put out a nice pic. It is very convenient to plug a HDMI cable from the sat box directly into the pj. I was hopeful about the Sony, but I got a feeling that is going to be a dead end on getting it. If I wanted to spend the money, then I would spring for the JVCs. The native on/off is just to compelling especially coming from CRT. LED DLP may change my thinking, but it will take a healthy price cut and some better performance.
As for Epson and LCD, this could be changing if they are bringing LCOS to market. There could be some good inexpensive LCOS pjs coming out to compete against low cost dlps and LCDs. I assume they will be at Cedia.
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | | HogPilot wrote: | | I've had no luck in digging up what the NTSC or SMPTE-C wavelength standards are - if you find it definitely post it here. |
Nope, no luck here either. There are a zillion color calculators out there, but they all seem to do coordinate conversions like xyY <--> XYZ <--> RGB etc. None of the ones I found calculate wavelength.
I suspect that may be because any point on the interior of the CIE diagram probably doesn't have a single wavelength -- it's a mixture of several wavelengths. Points around the perimeter of the CIE diagram might be pure colors that could be described by a single wavelength but I'm not sure of that either.
So if I'm right, the SMPTE coordinates *can't* be described by a wavelength. A wavelength at best describes a point around the CIE perimeter. A range of wavelengths (e.g. as shown on the spectral diagram of LED light) would correspond to a range of points on the perimeter. And maybe the summation (integration?) of all those points results in a point on the interior of the CIE diagram -- which would be the primaries exhibited by the projectors that use those LEDs.
I think. |
That actually makes perfect sense - I don't know why I didn't think of that before  . Saturation really just describes the purity of a color, since desaturating a color is just the process of adding opposing colors to it. So anything on the border of the CIE diagram is a pure wavelength - any other point on the interior of the diagram is desaturated to some extent, making it a mixture of two or more wavelengths. Since wavelength only describes one characteristic of light, the three-coordinate designators used (xyY, u'v'Y, XYZ, etc) describe hue, saturation, and lightness all in one. This also means that hue and saturation are related, and really just describe different methods of mixing light.
Soooo...since the coordinates describing colors on the interior of the diagram describe mixed colors, any display's native red, green, and blue primaries can be described by a single coordinate, regardless of how wide or narrow the range of colors used for a given primary are. The red produced by a UHP bulb is less saturated because it is a mix of a wider range of frequencies. The red of an LED bulb is more saturated because it is a mix of a much narrower band of frequencies.
_________________
| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| stefuel wrote: | "As much as folks on this site rail against digital, replacing the CRT in their theater with even something like the Epson would improve the picture quality of well over 80% of the people on this site. They don't like to admit it, but it is a fact."
Thems fightin words |
You are likely in the 20% Chip
_________________
Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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yonexsp
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 311
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| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:33 am Post subject: |
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Good bye all!!!
I purchased a Sony VPL-HW15, and sold my XHLC to another forum member.
It has been a blast, & I know I will miss my CRT (part of the 20%), but such is life
Snifff!!
Best of luck to all
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greg_mitch
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 5320
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| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:54 am Post subject: |
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| yonexsp wrote: | Good bye all!!!
I purchased a Sony VPL-HW15, and sold my XHLC to another forum member.
It has been a blast, & I know I will miss my CRT (part of the 20%), but such is life
Snifff!!
Best of luck to all |
I hate to break it to you...but you don't have to leave!
There are quite a few here who don't own CRT's (anymore or never did).
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yonexsp
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 311
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| greg_mitch wrote: | | yonexsp wrote: | Good bye all!!!
I purchased a Sony VPL-HW15, and sold my XHLC to another forum member.
It has been a blast, & I know I will miss my CRT (part of the 20%), but such is life
Snifff!!
Best of luck to all |
I hate to break it to you...but you don't have to leave!
There are quite a few here who don't own CRT's (anymore or never did). |
Ok, but your buying the beer!
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| yonexsp wrote: | | I purchased a Sony VPL-HW15 |
Well? Do you have it set up yet? What do you think?
SC
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greg_mitch
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 5320
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| yonexsp wrote: | | greg_mitch wrote: | | yonexsp wrote: | Good bye all!!!
I purchased a Sony VPL-HW15, and sold my XHLC to another forum member.
It has been a blast, & I know I will miss my CRT (part of the 20%), but such is life
Snifff!!
Best of luck to all |
I hate to break it to you...but you don't have to leave!
There are quite a few here who don't own CRT's (anymore or never did). |
Ok, but your buying the beer! |
I have a few bottles of some nice wheat...come on over!
Seriously...let's hear how you like the new toy!
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yonexsp
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 311
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:24 am Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | yonexsp wrote: | | I purchased a Sony VPL-HW15 |
Well? Do you have it set up yet? What do you think?
SC |
OK, just spent the last 5 hrs with the Sony
1 Word: STUNNING!!
Aside from absolute fade to black which is not quite as good as my XG, but damn near close for me, it's is amazing!
The colours out of the box are incredible, easily the match for my XG. The sharpness is fantastic, and the smooth image is drop dead gorgeous.
I used the auto Iris, and not once when watching lots of different material could I detect it when it adjusted. It really works well.
The unit is for all practical purposes silent, more noise came from outside then the PJ.
The ANSI contrast blows the XG away, on mixed scenes the image just pops out, and don't get me started on pixar movies. Holy crap, 3D depth and again, the colours!!!!! Freakin amazing. It's easily as 3D like as my CRT.
I'm sure it can be tweaked, but honestly, I would not even be bothered, I was blown away.
I even used the convergence feature, and it is just like old times. It does not have zone adjustments, but what it does have is good enough.
Bottom line, it beats the crap out of CRT in every aspect except the rare fade to black, and even then unless the fade scene goes beyond 3 -4 seconds, you don't notice because your eyes don't adjust quick enough. It's got so much more punch than the CRT with the brightness.
I tested this on a homemade 106" Behr ultra white screen.
STUNNING!!!!!!!!!
Best Projector I have ever tried. I test drove a Mitsubishi HC6800 yesterday on a Firehawk screen, and the Sony blew it to pieces.
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