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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 Posts: 4269 Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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You know, I think that I now recall that the Vision only supports 1080i at 60Hz and no other frequencies. It is worth checking though I think...
craigr
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dturco
Joined: 06 Feb 2009 Posts: 3778 Location: Eastern Shore Maryland
TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: | You know, I think that I now recall that the Vision only supports 1080i at 60Hz and no other frequencies. It is worth checking though I think...
craigr |
Craig, The VISION HDP PRO will output 1080p It excepts 1080i as input and 1080p24 with the proper updates I think. I have yet to have it except the 24hz signal and get a good picture on the output. The PRO accepts the input 1080p24 and sends out 1080p60 or 72 verified by the Marquee's frequency display but acts as if its sending the 24hz signal and will not lock.
Also I think I have damaged the PRO as it tried to display 960px1920@72hz and hasn't locked onto any signal since even down to 480i 480p or 1080i after a manual reset
It did lock to 1080i on the input and displayed 817x1920@72 once and then I pushed a wrong button on the save and the 960x1920@72happened so... I think I broke it. Overshot the 148Mhz clock for the DVI ?
I'll play with it later on and see if I can find the Gremlin.
_________________ Firefly rules. Can't stop the signal.
http://www.hulu.com/firefly
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Tim in Phoenix
Joined: 21 Oct 2006 Posts: 4409 Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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It did lock to 1080i on the input and displayed 817x1920@72 once and then I pushed a wrong button on the save and the 960x1920@72happened so... I think I broke it. Overshot the 148Mhz clock for the DVI ?
Try a firmware update, get the latest from the Lumagen downloads page and run it in Forced mode, it may clean things up for you.
.
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dturco
Joined: 06 Feb 2009 Posts: 3778 Location: Eastern Shore Maryland
TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Tim in Phoenix wrote: | It did lock to 1080i on the input and displayed 817x1920@72 once and then I pushed a wrong button on the save and the 960x1920@72happened so... I think I broke it. Overshot the 148Mhz clock for the DVI ?
Try a firmware update, get the latest from the Lumagen downloads page and run it in Forced mode, it may clean things up for you.
. |
Thanks
_________________ Firefly rules. Can't stop the signal.
http://www.hulu.com/firefly
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006 Posts: 3353 Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:39 am Post subject: |
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I have no desire to ever........ever, ever, ever, ever, ever.................................
....................................................................................................................
....................................................................................................................
ever,ever, did I say ever, get suited up like a WWII open cockpit fighter pilot to watch
a movie.
3-D will happen in my house when honest to goodness holographic displays are here.
In the very unlikely event that I change my mind, I won't be dumping a boatload of cash into
the CRT technology to do it. Digital will be good enough.
_________________ Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 5180 Location: Buried under G90s
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:45 am Post subject: |
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Since I already wear glasses, I'd be completely willing to accept LCD shutter glasses provided they're prescription glasses, too.
3D glasses are problematic for those of us who already wear glasses. We need an integrated solution.
True holographic displays are probably possible but it'll be a LONG time before they're of respectable size and in your home theater.
It will be an EXPENSIVE technology to develop, implement, and mass-produce.
I've already seen "naked eye" 3D collimated displays at a trade show. The technology works. It's projection sized. And it's expensive as hell.
CJ
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 Posts: 4269 Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| dturco wrote: | | CIR Engineering wrote: | You know, I think that I now recall that the Vision only supports 1080i at 60Hz and no other frequencies. It is worth checking though I think...
craigr |
Craig, The VISION HDP PRO will output 1080p It excepts 1080i as input and 1080p24 with the proper updates I think. I have yet to have it except the 24hz signal and get a good picture on the output. The PRO accepts the input 1080p24 and sends out 1080p60 or 72 verified by the Marquee's frequency display but acts as if its sending the 24hz signal and will not lock.
Also I think I have damaged the PRO as it tried to display 960px1920@72hz and hasn't locked onto any signal since even down to 480i 480p or 1080i after a manual reset
It did lock to 1080i on the input and displayed 817x1920@72 once and then I pushed a wrong button on the save and the 960x1920@72happened so... I think I broke it. Overshot the 148Mhz clock for the DVI ?
I'll play with it later on and see if I can find the Gremlin.  |
What the Vision accepts on the input is neither here nor there for this discussion. What we are concerned about is what the VP can output.
I know for sure that the Vision only supports one interlaced output and that is 1080i. The Vision is not capable of any other interlaced output resolutions. What I am unsure about on the Vision is if 1080i is supported at refresh rates other than 60 Hz. What I would like to see is someone try setting up 1080i on the output and then setting the refresh to 96Hz and checking inside the projector menu that it is actually doing 96Hz.
I don't think you could have damaged the VP doing with what you did... probably. More likely the VP is outputting a strange refresh and resolution that the projector does not support. If you accidentally overshoot the clock on the Vision it simply reports an erroneous refresh rate that it is not actually providing to the projector, but is stays below 148.5 MHz. It protects its self from this.
Before you try a force FW update (and that is something that should be tried next) do this.
Enter service mode on the Vision (Meno-0-9-1-0).
Reset to factory default (Menu-0-9-9-9).
Save the new settings.
Power cycle the VP.
If you can't see an image just follow the steps above with the remote pointed squarely at the VP IR receiver.
That may very well do it.
craigr
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Phone: 865-405-6892
Last edited by CIR Engineering on Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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David_Web
Joined: 02 May 2007 Posts: 418 Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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If the VP can't accept 1920x2205@24 over/under that the player will send then what's the point?
And send the proper EDID information to enable it from the player.
_________________ SNR of people are ridiculously low.
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dturco
Joined: 06 Feb 2009 Posts: 3778 Location: Eastern Shore Maryland
TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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Craig I'll try it now and let you know.
_________________ Firefly rules. Can't stop the signal.
http://www.hulu.com/firefly
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 Posts: 4269 Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| David_Web wrote: | If the VP can't accept 1920x2205@24 over/under that the player will send then what's the point?
And send the proper EDID information to enable it from the player. |
The Vision can accept 1080p 24Hz and 1080i 60Hz. 3D would have to be turned on in the BD player as there is no EDID. However, I would expect that most if not all 3D BD players will allow you to manually enable 3D because EDID is notoriously unreliable in all situations.
craigr
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Phone: 865-405-6892
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dturco
Joined: 06 Feb 2009 Posts: 3778 Location: Eastern Shore Maryland
TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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Well Craig, I unplugged the VISION PRO a few days ago and when I plugged it back in still no picture. Did your menu reset and it came back to life, but all of my old settings were still there? Anyway thanks for the info.
Now to your question, set output to 1080i [selected 1080 interlaced after typing 1080 in output box] then selecting VRES 96.00 or 120.00
The marquee see 33.71hz by 59.93hz or just plain ole' 1080i.
So again you were right
Input doesn't matter but just in case input was 480i or maybe 480p with an Integra dps 10.5 set to source resolution. Cables Blue jeans HDMI to DVI to PRO pro out Bluejeans cable to Moome V-2 card.
Thanks for your help and if there's anything else you would like me to check I'd be happy to do it.
_________________ Firefly rules. Can't stop the signal.
http://www.hulu.com/firefly
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David_Web
Joined: 02 May 2007 Posts: 418 Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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If you look under surround sound receivers in the HD Guru article they mention their incompatibility. But it might not affect things if the FHD3D signal won't be sent. But somehow I doubt it. We have to wait and see.
1080p is only half the resolution that will be sent. 2205 if the full height from what I can see.
But as I said earlier someone might make a player that does what we want.
_________________ SNR of people are ridiculously low.
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Kiev Savoie
Joined: 25 Oct 2007 Posts: 432
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: | Just for some info, I have setup Radiance processors to run 1080i @ 120Hz and at 96Hz. My G90 rig will do it right now.
It seems to me that we could just pull the sync timing for the glasses off the RGBHV analog coming out a Moome or HDF3 board to the projector. Then send this to the IR emitter. If you have a VP that can handle the frequencies then all you would need is the 3D BD player and the IR emitter for the glasses along with the sync device.
Also, it's been a while but I am pretty sure the Vision processors will do 1080i at 120Hz and 96Hz... Lumagen does not officially support this, but the processor do a lot of things that are not officially supported. I don't have a Vision here, but if I get a chance I can try it the next time I service one. If the Vision will do it, you guys will also have a cheap VP option.
...or if one of you who has a Vision wants to try 1080i 120Hz please give it a go. I know the VP will report 120 Hz, but you have to check in the analog projector to make certain that the digital coming from the Lumagen really is that frequency.
Also, the Vision and Radiance processors may say the output is 19.88 Hz for 119.88Hz because it does not have a place for that many digits
craigr |
I wasn't going to say anything, since a lot of this discussion goes over my head but, since you brought it up Craig. I've been wondering about this myself. Everyone keeps talking about the high bandwidth demands and flicker problems of using 1080p but 1080i has way less bandwidth and is inherently better when you are concerned about flicker. It seems to me like 1080i with a VP would be the magic formula. You wouldn't have to work your PJ so hard and you could get away with lower refresh rates.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 Posts: 4269 Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Kiev Savoie wrote: | | CIR Engineering wrote: | Just for some info, I have setup Radiance processors to run 1080i @ 120Hz and at 96Hz. My G90 rig will do it right now.
It seems to me that we could just pull the sync timing for the glasses off the RGBHV analog coming out a Moome or HDF3 board to the projector. Then send this to the IR emitter. If you have a VP that can handle the frequencies then all you would need is the 3D BD player and the IR emitter for the glasses along with the sync device.
Also, it's been a while but I am pretty sure the Vision processors will do 1080i at 120Hz and 96Hz... Lumagen does not officially support this, but the processor do a lot of things that are not officially supported. I don't have a Vision here, but if I get a chance I can try it the next time I service one. If the Vision will do it, you guys will also have a cheap VP option.
...or if one of you who has a Vision wants to try 1080i 120Hz please give it a go. I know the VP will report 120 Hz, but you have to check in the analog projector to make certain that the digital coming from the Lumagen really is that frequency.
Also, the Vision and Radiance processors may say the output is 19.88 Hz for 119.88Hz because it does not have a place for that many digits
craigr |
I wasn't going to say anything, since a lot of this discussion goes over my head but, since you brought it up Craig. I've been wondering about this myself. Everyone keeps talking about the high bandwidth demands and flicker problems of using 1080p but 1080i has way less bandwidth and is inherently better when you are concerned about flicker. It seems to me like 1080i with a VP would be the magic formula. You wouldn't have to work your PJ so hard and you could get away with lower refresh rates.  |
1080i 120Hz is the same BW as 1080p 60Hz. So any projector that can run 1080p 60Hz potentially could run 1080i 120Hz. The VP just needs to interlace the 1080p 48Hz signal and double (or more) the refresh. I think 1080i 96Hz may actually work better (and is less BW than 1080p 60Hz) because it's exactly 2x 48Hz.
craigr
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Phone: 865-405-6892
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kschmit2
Joined: 09 Mar 2006 Posts: 1141 Location: Heidelberg, Germany
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: | I think 1080i 96Hz may actually work better (and is less BW than 1080p 60Hz) because it's exactly 2x 48Hz.
craigr |
And that resolution runs perfectly well on the VisionPro HDP, so it may be a good starting point.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 Posts: 4269 Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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I just spent a while on the phone with Jim at Lumagen. The next major release they are working on for the Radiance processors is to support 3D. Please have a look at this thread.
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=255316
Unfortunately for the Vision crowd, after talking to Jim I think that the Vision will not support 3D. The reason for this is that the input on the Vision does not have enough bandwidth It looks like the 1080p 24Hz signal being supplied will actually require about the same BW (slightly less) than 1080p 60Hz which the Vision just can not do. So sorry for getting Vision people's hopes up
But I think the Radiance people can start getting giddy now.
craigr
_________________ JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
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OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
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www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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Miller101
Joined: 16 Jun 2010 Posts: 6 Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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Lots of very nice and detail information, thanks guys, also I was checking out the LCD 3D setups and the nVidia 3D card over the weekend.
The 3D blue ray was disappointing, the setup has a Samsung LCD hooked to a Blue Ray 3D player with the shutter type glasses. The picture does not come even close to the theaters let alone something like IMAX. the image looked slightly blurred even with the glasses.
The nVidia setup looks much better, but not a very good comparison to the 3D LCD as this was playing a 3D game. But the 3D effects looked more pleasing.
As I already have a HTPC running my Marquee 8500, with HDFury II, this is the setup I am planing on trying first. My concern is if the HDFury will be able to handle the extra bandwidth for the 3D signal. And to figure out a way to control the shutter synchronization. It looks like the wired version posted in one of the posts here will solve that problem.
But with the price of the package still in the $300 range, I will have to wait a few months till the price drops to a acceptable level to do experiments with. javascript:emoticon(' ')
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Sparky015
Joined: 12 May 2009 Posts: 1185 Location: Cleveland / Akron, OH
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| Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | "To get the FULL 3D experience you will need 4 projectors, each displaying 60hz.
Two projectors per side of an edge blended setup. Seeing as the bandwidth for 1080P120 is somewhere around 373mhz, and about a 20% overlap will be used, the total bandwidth comes out to around 448mhz. Divide this by 4 projectors and each one has to cover only 112mhz, easily done.
Do this, and you will acheive immortality. " |
Do that, and you have a boat load more money than most too!
_________________ ~Paul
Last edited by Sparky015 on Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 Posts: 4269 Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| piratepowwow wrote: | Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
1080P at 120hz...I don't know if there are any CRT projectors that can handle that kind of bandwidth reasonably.
The best projector on the list is the Cine9 and it only has a bandwidth of 180mhz. 1080P60 uses about 187mhz. The Cine9 has slightly less bandwidth than 1080P60 uses; it's going to be rather soft at 120hz.
Of course our projectors will display content well beyond the projector's bandwidth capabilities, but you lose detail and color.
To get the FULL 3D experience you will need 4 projectors, each displaying 60hz.
Two projectors per side of an edge blended setup. Seeing as the bandwidth for 1080P120 is somewhere around 373mhz, and about a 20% overlap will be used, the total bandwidth comes out to around 448mhz. Divide this by 4 projectors and each one has to cover only 112mhz, easily done.
Do this, and you will acheive immortality. |
No one is suggesting 1080p 120Hz, that ain't gonna happen. The problem is not just the projectors, but no HDMI chipset can come close to that sort of BW.
We can try 1080i 120Hz, but Jim at Lumagen says he thinks a down rez from 1080p to a lower progressive resolution at 120Hz will work best on CRT.
craigr
_________________ JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
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Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
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www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 Posts: 4269 Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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How did my quote of your post wind up on top of your original post
craigr
_________________ JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
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Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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