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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:46 am Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: | Glad you are happy with the improvement Draganm  |
I wish it hadn't taken me 6 months to find the right setting but I guess better late than never:o
| CIR Engineering wrote: | And incidentally, when I am hired to calibrate a system I always include signal chain optimization with my services. I often don't mention it, but I always go through and make sure that the best combination of settings is used on a client's system to make sure the best possible signal is sent all the way to the projector  I do a lot more than just calibrate the projector when I come in for service.
craigr |
I can see that, the last guy I refereed to you was thrilled with the results. I use to get all kinds of techy video/source related questions from customers and rarely had a comprehensive answer for them. Now I can just forward them to you 
| dochlywd wrote: | The more I read about this stuff, the more I think I understand until I read about real world situations. It's then that I'm reminded that I don't really know squat!!!!!! Which makes me also wonder how many guys there are out there with only a little more knowledge than me actually charging people for calibrations! 
Doc |
Ditto, it seems like with BD and HD getting everything set right has become much more difficult. You can literally toggle yourself into an inferior pic with just one setting off. Like Craig mentioned earlier it's even more confusing because the manufacturers don't even have an agreed upon Terminology yet for common setting like color space. Up until recently where I complained about lack of BTB on my Panasonic in another thread that Craig responded to, I had never even heard of "color space". 
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David_Web
Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 418
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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"White-green-orange-brown seems more like a failure mode than white-brown to me..."
That is why I asked for screenshots as it sounds like a classic decoding error. No way of telling without seeing it though.
Also I hate to waste half resolution for color information when using 422, that always bugged me and I see it in many compressed formats.
10bit isn't even used in most sources. Wish it where.
Although 422 has been deemed good enough by professional use so with a good decoder it might not be a problem at all. And for film it's probably a moot point. But for graphic and computer generated content things would be different.
I have yet to read though all the articles but some shows the problem with formats and ranges.
http://www.spearsandmunsil.com/articles.html
And I don't like the misuse of the phrase "color space"
It's an area of all visible colors that is confined to the displayable formats primary colors. Not 16-365 0-255 YPbPr YCbCr RCB or anything else.
Color space is a "container", how you define the points in it is irrelevant.
That's my view of it.
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rssimm
Joined: 28 Jul 2009
Posts: 48
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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little off topic but relevant. with the fury 1 is there any way to get it to use YCbCr?would the gamma x or box1020 correct the gamma? i tried last night with my ps3 and the colors were washed like you said and the whole picture had a purplish tint to it. just looking for the best setup with what I've got now.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| dochlywd wrote: | So Craig,
When I put in the Avia HD and display it via my PS3, I forget why I don't get BTB. Was it because of my John DVI card, the PS3, or the Integra? I'm almost positive that you set the Integra on pass through but does it still have a layer of processing on it? From what I remember, when you displayed the pixel mapping pattern, the small square in the upper right of the pattern wasn't displaying correctly but I forget why.
The more I read about this stuff, the more I think I understand until I read about real world situations. It's then that I'm reminded that I don't really know squat!!!!!! Which makes me also wonder how many guys there are out there with only a little more knowledge than me actually charging people for calibrations!
There's no training in the world that can replace the field hours and knowledge gained from them to bring the average individual up to someone like Craig's level. I can't stress enough that just having three initials behind someone's name doesn't mean they are qualified. If seeking the best picture possible from your current situation, always, always, always ask about their field experience and check with references so you end up with someone as qualified (well, almost ) and having the expertise that Craig has showing up at your door to dial you in!!!!!!!!!
Doc |
Thanks Doc,
On your G90 you've still got John's DVI IFB. That card is designed for use with 0-255. There are tricks that can sort of be applied to use 16-235 instead, but that card really looks best with 0-255 into it. That's why you aren't getting BTB.
craigr
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| perisoft wrote: | | CIR Engineering wrote: |
With RGB you see three main colors in the scene. The brightest part of the arm is white and then as the light rolls off around the arm it turns brownish.
With YCbCr the brightest part of the skin is again white and the darkest part again brownish, but in between the white and brown you will see a greenish tinge to the skin and then an orange tinge and then finally brownish. |
Hmm... if it were me, I'd suspect that the one with -more- colors is wrong. White-green-orange-brown seems more like a failure mode than white-brown to me... |
Usually when you have an error in decoding it is very obvious. One of the main reasons that 10-bit YCbCr 422 was introduced is to allow more color data through to the projector. If you look at the image it is easy to tell that the colors are supposed to be there. I am not talking about distorted weird looking colors. Instead I am talking about subtle differences that add up holistically to make the image more natural.
If you have an eye for video and you look holistically at YCbCr 422 and then compare it to RGB you should notice that something is a little better in the 422 image. If you pause a scene and study it you will be able to see very subtle differences that can be pointed out between the two. And as usual, the larger the screen the easier it is to detect and document the differences.
craigr
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: |
| CIR Engineering wrote: | And incidentally, when I am hired to calibrate a system I always include signal chain optimization with my services. I often don't mention it, but I always go through and make sure that the best combination of settings is used on a client's system to make sure the best possible signal is sent all the way to the projector I do a lot more than just calibrate the projector when I come in for service.
craigr |
I can see that, the last guy I refereed to you was thrilled with the results. I use to get all kinds of techy video/source related questions from customers and rarely had a comprehensive answer for them. Now I can just forward them to you |
Thanks for that Draganm and Lumagen tells me the same thing. They love it when I sell and install their VP's because they almost never get any questions from my clients
| dochlywd wrote: | The more I read about this stuff, the more I think I understand until I read about real world situations. It's then that I'm reminded that I don't really know squat!!!!!! Which makes me also wonder how many guys there are out there with only a little more knowledge than me actually charging people for calibrations!
Doc |
Ditto, it seems like with BD and HD getting everything set right has become much more difficult. You can literally toggle yourself into an inferior pic with just one setting off. Like Craig mentioned earlier it's even more confusing because the manufacturers don't even have an agreed upon Terminology yet for common setting like color space. Up until recently where I complained about lack of BTB on my Panasonic in another thread that Craig responded to, I had never even heard of "color space". [/quote]
You do have to be careful and you certainly can't assume that the source comes out of the box optimized. The manufacturer can't know what your signal chain looks like and usually the default settings are not going to totally give with your entire system.
craigr
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dturco
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3778
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland
TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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Craig, I have the lumagen Vision HDP PRO I can not find the 422 option? All I can find is 444 or RGB. Is it not there or am I missing a "button push" to find it?
Hell since I'm asking it wont pass 1080p24 either Sony BDs 550 1080p24 on DVI /HDMI cable to Lumagen HDMI to Moome V-2 set to 16-235 , 9500L/C shows 67.71? /59.94 on display but drops out like it's 1080p24? and will not sync.
Any ideas?
EDIT: I have installed the latest firmware update via the db9f cable.
Dave
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| David_Web wrote: | "White-green-orange-brown seems more like a failure mode than white-brown to me..."
That is why I asked for screenshots as it sounds like a classic decoding error. No way of telling without seeing it though. |
Look man, I have a crappy old digicam that only supports heavy compression with JPG images There is no way that the subtle differences that I shoot off the screen are going to show up by the time I get a photo posted. The other thing is that I am happy to provide info and help to folks while I drink my morning coffee, but getting up and setting all that up and then positing images is beyond the scope of my contribution to this thread.
| David_Web wrote: | Also I hate to waste half resolution for color information when using 422, that always bugged me and I see it in many compressed formats.
10bit isn't even used in most sources. Wish it where.
Although 422 has been deemed good enough by professional use so with a good decoder it might not be a problem at all. And for film it's probably a moot point. But for graphic and computer generated content things would be different. |
I agree with you on the source point. If the actual video material is not in 422 or 420, than there is probably no benefit to supplying the projector with 422. So if you are watching DISH, 422 is not going to help. Actually, if the DISH box supports 422 and you were to use it, you will likely have a slight deleterious affect on the image because the colors would need to be up-sampled from an 8-bit to a 10-bit level.
| David_Web wrote: | And I don't like the misuse of the phrase "color space"
It's an area of all visible colors that is confined to the displayable formats primary colors. Not 16-365 0-255 YPbPr YCbCr RCB or anything else.
Color space is a "container", how you define the points in it is irrelevant.
That's my view of it. |
I guess that is true and I also don't like it when people call RGB 0-255 or 16-235 a "color space" setting because it is only a difference between two luma level standards. I don't mind so much when using color space to describe YCbCr though. But you are right.
craigr
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| dturco wrote: | Craig, I have the lumagen Vision HDP PRO I can not find the 422 option? All I can find is 444 or RGB. Is it not there or am I missing a "button push" to find it?
Hell since I'm asking it wont pass 1080p24 either Sony BDs 550 1080p24 on DVI /HDMI cable to Lumagen HDMI to Moome V-2 set to 16-235 , 9500L/C shows 67.71? /59.94 on display but drops out like it's 1080p24? and will not sync.
Any ideas?
EDIT: I have installed the latest firmware update via the db9f cable.
Dave |
Dave it should be there i am sure. It will be HDMI 422 i think. there is HDMI 422,444 and RGB 444 and DVI-A if i am not mistaken. You have to set the output to 1080p@60 or 48 for the marquee dave. it will not sync to 24p.
I suggest you try 800p @72 and use the shrink menu in the lumagen for Scope movies. My HDQ's support this, the HDP pro should as well.
On a side note My two Radiance XS's should arrive on friday!!!!
Athanasios
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| dturco wrote: | Craig, I have the lumagen Vision HDP PRO I can not find the 422 option? All I can find is 444 or RGB. Is it not there or am I missing a "button push" to find it?
Hell since I'm asking it wont pass 1080p24 either Sony BDs 550 1080p24 on DVI /HDMI cable to Lumagen HDMI to Moome V-2 set to 16-235 , 9500L/C shows 67.71? /59.94 on display but drops out like it's 1080p24? and will not sync.
Any ideas?
EDIT: I have installed the latest firmware update via the db9f cable.
Dave |
The Lumagen Vision series is an interesting beast. On the input the Vision supports RGB, YCbCr 444, and YCbCr 422. This setting is available as (I think, don't have one in front of me) the first option under the input menu.
On the digital output of the Vision you only can send RGB at either 0-255 or 16-236. The Vision does not support YCbCr on its output. So if you supply your projector with a digital signal from a Vision sereis processor you are constrained to 8-bit RGB color.
The Vision can support analog RGBHV as well though, and it does the conversion to analog in 10-bit space. However, since the Vision is HDCP compliant, you can't just hook up a BD player to the DVI and have analog come out of the processor (Moome HDCP stripper is needed).
With the Vision, you really shouldn't put 24Hz into the processor and then output 60Hz (this is bad for CRT guys). The Vision does a terrible job of converting 24Hz to 60Hz (though it works). The Vision has very good IVTC though so it does a fantastic job extracting 24Hz from 60Hz sources that were originally shot at a film rate.
With your Vision and your projector I would suggest setting up a 2.35 scan rate for 24Hz source material. Have 2.35 input to the Vision at 1080p 24Hz, and then have the Vision output at 817x1920 72Hz. Here is an old link where I bring this up followed by discussion http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=737385
For 60Hz sources you may find that the Vision does do ok with 1080p 24Hz on the input, but you may actually find that setting the BD player to 1080i 60Hz provides a better image. Try both.
craigr
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Phone: 865-405-6892
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| rssimm wrote: | | little off topic but relevant. with the fury 1 is there any way to get it to use YCbCr?would the gamma x or box1020 correct the gamma? i tried last night with my ps3 and the colors were washed like you said and the whole picture had a purplish tint to it. just looking for the best setup with what I've got now. |
The HDF1 is a nice card, but it is old school DVI. Because of this, it only supports RGB. Set the device that feeds the HDF1 to RGB 0-255.
The HDF2 and HDF3 both support RGB and YCbCr 444/422 and they both support 16-235.
The funny thing on the HDF1,2,3 is that the HDF1 has the sharpest picture of the three and the best bandwidth. The HDF2 supports the 10-bit color, but the frequency response of the board is not very good so the image is softer. The HDF3 is sharper than the HDF2, but not as sharp as the HDF1.
craigr
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Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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Craig i thing you might be wrong on this as I have confirmed it. If you have a Digital connection and the display is digital it will default to DVI-D.
and from the manual:
http://www.lumagen.com/docs/VisionHDQ_User_Man_3-9-07.pdf
| Quote: | Connections from left to right
· POWER: Connect to the supplied external 5 Volt DC power supply.
· RS-232: Connect the supplied external 5 Volt DC at 5 Amp power supply.
· Analog Video output: Provides analog RGB or component video output.
· DVI-I Video output: Provides digital (DVI-D) video output. |
Also here:
| Quote: | Initial Output/Input Setup:
· Connect video cables as described in the Rear Panel section. Then connect power and turn all
required components on.
· Select the output type: Skip this step if a DVI-D/HDMI display is connected. If a DVI-D display
is connected, DVI-D will be selected by default, otherwise analog RGBHV output is the default.
For analog output, the mode can be changed as shown below. For more info see the Output
Configuration Section (page 14). |
When you told me this before when we talked about my own Colorspace issues with the lumagens and Tv-Ones used together i was very confused. I then figured it out after i went through each unit and set it all to 422. Things inproved and all was well in the world.
Athanasios
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | Craig i thing you might be wrong on this as I have confirmed it. If you have a Digital connection and the display is digital it will default to DVI-D.
and from the manual:
http://www.lumagen.com/docs/VisionHDQ_User_Man_3-9-07.pdf
| Quote: | Connections from left to right
· POWER: Connect to the supplied external 5 Volt DC power supply.
· RS-232: Connect the supplied external 5 Volt DC at 5 Amp power supply.
· Analog Video output: Provides analog RGB or component video output.
· DVI-I Video output: Provides digital (DVI-D) video output. |
Also here:
| Quote: | Initial Output/Input Setup:
· Connect video cables as described in the Rear Panel section. Then connect power and turn all
required components on.
· Select the output type: Skip this step if a DVI-D/HDMI display is connected. If a DVI-D display
is connected, DVI-D will be selected by default, otherwise analog RGBHV output is the default.
For analog output, the mode can be changed as shown below. For more info see the Output
Configuration Section (page 14). |
|
I am not sure what this is in reference to Tom? You can hook the Vision up with either RGBHV or DVI-D. The Vision supports either, but if you input digital with HDCP you can't use the analog RGBHV output (without stripping the HDCP).
The Vision supports digital output resolutions with clock rates below 148.5 MHz. This can be at any scan rate including 72Hz. The analog RGBHV supports full 1080p 72Hz. The Vision DVI output does not support full 1080p 72Hz because that requires more than 178 MHz (which is a lot more than 148.5 MHz).
craigr
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dturco
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3778
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland
TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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[The Vision supports digital output resolutions with clock rates below 148.5 MHz. This can be at any scan rate including 72Hz. The analog RGBHV supports full 1080p 72Hz. The Vision DVI output does not support full 1080p 72Hz because that requires more than 178 MHz (which is a lot more than 148.5 MHz).
craigr[/quote]
So if I go to RGBHV cables and do not usee the Moome card I can get 1080p@72? And possibly a better/smoother picture because of the extra Bits?
EDIT: I got excited, I re-read your post and see where you said Moome stripper would be needed. 
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Last edited by dturco on Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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dturco
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3778
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland
TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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Craig, I just saw your other post where you gave the details for my set-up. [I missed it while I was posting my edit.]
Thank you.
Dave
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | Hi Craig, I mean the hdq can send ycbr on the digital out , can't it?
Nasou. |
No, absolutely not. That is what you and I talked about on the phone the other week. The Vision CANNOT send Digital YCbCr through the DVI output. The digital output of the Vision only supports RGB.
The Vision CAN send analog YCbCr through either the DVI-I (analog wires with RGBHV brake out cable) or Y(green)/Pb(blue)/Pr(red) BNC connectors. But with a CRT front projector there is really no reason to ever use analog component at all with a VP because they all support RGBHV.
craigr
_________________
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Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
Last edited by CIR Engineering on Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: | Hi Craig, I mean the hdq can send ycbr on the digital out , can't it?
Nasou. |
No, absolutely not. That is what you and I talked about on the phone the other week. The Vision CANNOT send Digital YCbCr through the DVI output. The digital output of the Vision only supports RGB.
The Vision CAN send analog YCbCr through either the DVI-I (analog wires with RGBHV brake out cable) or Y(green)/Pb(blue)/Pr(red) BNC connectors. But with a CRT front projector there is really no reason to ever use analog component at all because they all support RGBHV.
craigr |
Ok Gotcha, its the wording in these manuals and no manufacturer uses the terms. The manual says digital out put then says DVI-D. I thought DVI-D was the digital YcBcR. But there is not only a Analog RGB there is a digital RGB as well.
and this is what I have to set my Tv-One to. I think its finally sinking in. 
Well tomorrow i should have the radiance's here and i'll be able to finally see if my Tv-Ones have a colorspace conversion issue We talked about. Now i'll be able to go 422 right to the Moome Vim-HD card.
Once Again Craig your knowledge of all things video never stops to amaze me and it is really appreciated.
Athanasios
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | | CIR Engineering wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: | Hi Craig, I mean the hdq can send ycbr on the digital out , can't it?
Nasou. |
No, absolutely not. That is what you and I talked about on the phone the other week. The Vision CANNOT send Digital YCbCr through the DVI output. The digital output of the Vision only supports RGB.
The Vision CAN send analog YCbCr through either the DVI-I (analog wires with RGBHV brake out cable) or Y(green)/Pb(blue)/Pr(red) BNC connectors. But with a CRT front projector there is really no reason to ever use analog component at all because they all support RGBHV.
craigr |
Ok Gotcha, its the wording in these manuals and no manufacturer uses the terms. The manual says digital out put then says DVI-D. I thought DVI-D was the digital YcBcR. But there is not only a Analog RGB there is a digital RGB as well.
and this is what I have to set my Tv-One to. I think its finally sinking in.
Well tomorrow i should have the radiance's here and i'll be able to finally see if my Tv-Ones have a colorspace conversion issue We talked about. Now i'll be able to go 422 right to the Moome Vim-HD card.
Once Again Craig your knowledge of all things video never stops to amaze me and it is really appreciated.
Athanasios |
Tom you are going to LOVE the Radiance processors. The Vision does a good job, but MAN the Radiance is something else entirely. You should be impressed once you start pumping out 1080p 72Hz with YCbCr 422
craigr
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: |
Ok Gotcha, its the wording in these manuals and no manufacturer uses the terms. The manual says digital out put then says DVI-D. I thought DVI-D was the digital YcBcR. But there is not only a Analog RGB there is a digital RGB as well.
and this is what I have to set my Tv-One to. I think its finally sinking in.
Well tomorrow i should have the radiance's here and i'll be able to finally see if my Tv-Ones have a colorspace conversion issue We talked about. Now i'll be able to go 422 right to the Moome Vim-HD card.
Once Again Craig your knowledge of all things video never stops to amaze me and it is really appreciated.
Athanasios |
Also, Lumagen's terminology is always correct. Whenever you see DVI-D you can assume in 99.99% of cases that it is RGB because DVI spec only includes RGB. HDMI does not include any analog specs, but it does include digital RGB, YCbCr 422 and 444.
It is possible to have a DVI device support YCbCr, but they are rare. Furthermore, DVI does not include the "info frame" which with HDMI instructs the display what color space to use. In the absence of the "info frame", the display will always default to RGB because the display assumes that you are sending DVI (which must be RGB).
The only devices I am aware of that support DVI YCbCr are the Lumagen Vision processors, The Accupel HDG-4000, and some HTPC video cards (there are probably some others). Since these devices use DVI chips, these devices can not send the info frame. Thus you must manually select the correct color space when using YCbCr; hence the input settings on the input of the Vision processors.
craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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