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As this forum is rarely used anymore, we've locked it. Feel free to browse and read. Questions? Please reach out to us directly. Cheers! |
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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Westom. We get your point. Please stop posting the same thing over and over again. I dont want to have to get involved in another conversation with you.......... 
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westom
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:20 am Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | We get your point. Please stop posting the same thing over and over again. |
Apparently not. You are again posting the same disconnecting myth. Please stop posting your myths over and over again. We get it. So how do you protect refrigerator, dishwasher, furnace, and fire alarm system? Oh. You leave everything disconnected even when using them.
We got your point long ago. You know only because you know. I who learned before posting makes you angry. If you dislike the science, then stop reading it. An informed consumer earths one 'whole house' protector. Does not leave his computer and big screen TV disconnected when using them because he 'fears' surges - as you must do. If you do not like the science, then stop reading it.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:35 am Post subject: |
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| westom wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | | We get your point. Please stop posting the same thing over and over again. |
Apparently not. You are again posting the same disconnecting myth. Please stop posting your myths over and over again. We get it. So how do you protect refrigerator, dishwasher, furnace, and fire alarm system? Oh. You leave everything disconnected even when using them.
We got your point long ago. You know only because you know. I who learned before posting makes you angry. If you dislike the science, then stop reading it. An informed consumer earths one 'whole house' protector. Does not leave his computer and big screen TV disconnected when using them because he 'fears' surges - as you must do. If you do not like the science, then stop reading it. |
Ok, you asked for it. You and I had these discussions in another thread here and you even failed to answer some of my viable questions.
Also I am going to repost a copy and paste I put in that thread which I copied from a professional commercial lightning protection company. You must of forgot and if you feel the need to comment against it then your entire credibility with me will go to ZERO!
CnP:
Lightning and Surge Protectors / UPS Devices
Surge protectors and UPS units are not suitable lightning protection devices. These appliances provide some degree of protection from voltage spikes from everyday power surges and distant lightning strikes. But when lightning strikes a structure directly or very close to it, lightning protection system or not, all bets are off.
A common surge protector simply cannot have any effect on the violent, catastrophic burst of current from a very close or direct lightning strike. Direct lightning current is simply too big to protect with a little electronic device inside a power strip, or even a hefty UPS unit. If your UPS or surge protector is in the way of the lightning's path, all or part of the lightning will just flash over or through the device - regardless of the amount of capacitors and battery banks involved.
Even 'disconnects', or devices that physically switch off power to a device by activating a set of contacts, will not guarantee protection. A small air gap will not stop a lightning bolt that has already jumped across miles of air. It won't think twice about jumping a few more inches, or even a few more feet, especially if the 'path of least resistance' to ground is across the contacts of the disconnect switch.
Not only that, but not even a full-fledged lightning protection system with rods, cables and grounds will guarantee against damage to electronics and computers. For any system to provide 100% protection, it must divert almost 100% of the lightning current from a direct strike, which is nearly physically impossible: Ohm's Law states that for a set of resistances connected in parallel, the current will be distributed across ALL resistances, at levels inversely proportional to the different values of resistance. A house or building is nothing more than a set of resistors 'connected' in parallel- the electrical wiring, plumbing, phone lines, steel framework, etc. (Even though plumbing and electrical wiring, for instance, may not be physically connected, lightning will use side flashes across air gaps to effectively connect them). In a direct lightning strike, the current will not follow only one path- it will distribute itself across all paths to ground depending on each path's resistance.
Lightning current often peaks at 100,000 or more Amperes. With that in mind, consider if you have a lightning protection system installed, and your house is hit directly by lightning. If the protection system takes even 99.9% of the current, then your electrical wiring may take the remaining 0.1%. 0.1% of 100,000 Amperes is a 100 Amp surge through your lines- which may be enough to take out your computer.
It is not uncommon for 'side flashes' to occur inside a house or building, where all or a part of the lightning will jump across an entire room to reach ground- such as from the electrical wiring system to well-grounded water pipes. If your computer is in the way, it'll be time to shop for a new one, even if you have the most expensive protection system installed.
Guarantees on the packaging of UPS/surge protection devices are somewhat misleading when it comes to lightning protection, implying that the devices can stop any effects of a strike. In some cases, they will - as long as they aren't in or near the direct line of fire. But in reality, nothing can guarantee absolute protection from a direct or very close strike.
All this doesn't mean that you shouldn't use a surge protector, UPS, disconnect, or a full-fledged lightning rod system. Any device will provide some degree of protection from everyday power line spikes and distant lightning strikes. But when lightning hits nearby or directly, all bets are off.
The best, and cheapest, way to protect your stereo, television, computer, or any electronic appliance is to unplug all power, telephone, cable, (modem), and antenna connections during a thunderstorm.
END CnP
Now your trying to come off like you know what your talking about and some of what you say is correct. But then you come out with crap comments and you start loosing credibility. Then go go a cause problems with another member here "Case" and without viable facts and poorly explained.
If you think that you are more convincing bt becoming hostile..... your wrong and we will just stop talking to you.
I have no problem reading what you post but its poorly written and it IS the same thing over and over.
Oh, and I have learned science.... and it says......LIGHTNING IS DESTRUCTIVE!!!!!!! Period.
So..... what do you want to tell me?
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:02 am Post subject: |
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Oh, I almost forgot.
| westom wrote: | So how do you protect refrigerator, dishwasher, furnace, and fire alarm system? I have homeowners insurance. Best protection in the world!
Does not leave his computer and big screen TV disconnected when using them because he 'fears' surges - as you must do. I have no fears at all. As I said above, I have homeowners insurance. I unplug to help save my insurance company in the event of a strike. Plus I know it's the right thing to do. |
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | Then go go a cause problems with another member here "Case" and without viable facts and poorly explained.
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Cheers macgyver, its no big deal to me really, what i was talking about was small surges, as you probably saw i explained that to him, but as you also saw, he reverted to lightning strike surges and stated my method wont prevent them causing damage. I never spoke of lightning strikes!!
All i really was getting at was with my suggested method for SMALL SURGE PROTECTION ( and by this i mean the surges you may get in regular electricity supply and not caused by lightning strike ), the disconnect device, in the case i put forward either and RCD or RCBO, with the MOV diverting excess power to earth, and the RCD or RCBO reading current flow between only active and neutral, the device will disconnect supply due to more current flowing in active than in neutral, which will protect the device from further small surges, while a UPS will provide power to given items to give time to shut them down, or time to go and reset the cutoff.
Ive never seen a surge protection device that can restrain a direct lightning strike. We could be talking up in the mega amps there, mega being 1 million, and i dont know of a conductor big enough. There may be one, but im not aware of it.
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westom
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | what i was talking about was small surges, as you probably saw i explained that to him, but as you also saw, he reverted to lightning strike surges |
Said before - and repeated again because you did not grasp it. Protection from small surges is 1) already inside all appliances. 2) Performed by one 'whole house' protector. 3) If using those 'small surge protectors', a 'whole house' protector is needed to protect those protectors. 'Small surge protectors' create new problems. And are located where these problems cause a human safety problem:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
http://tinyurl.com/3x73ol
http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/
http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/news/lesson-learned/surgeprotectorfire.htm
http://www.pennsburgfireco.com/fullstory.php?58339
Protection inside every appliance makes small surges irrelevant. 1) Protectors for small surges require protection from an earth protector. 2) That earthed 'whole house' protector makes small surges further irrelevant. And 3) is an added bonus that costs less money - destructive surge (ie once every seven years) will not overwhelm protection in all appliances. The 'whole house' protector makes the only destructive surges irrelevant - and is necessary to protect those 'small surge' protectors that do virtually nothing.
Yes, repeated again because your post pretends these facts were not posted. Your 'small surge' protector is an obscenely profitable myth. Locations that need protection from small surges install one ‘whole house’ protector - and nothing more. That is 'small surge' protection for everything AND that also makes direct lightning strikes irrelevant – for tens or 100 times less money.
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westom
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | Ive never seen a surge protection device that can restrain a direct lightning strike. |
You numbers are myths. Protector that "restrain a direct lightning strike" is the myth promoted in retail stores. No effective protector does that. Protection is always about where energy dissipates.
Routine is for BT to suffer direct lightning strikes without damage. Typically in excess of 100 per thunderstorm. They don't was money on plug-in protectors. They install the protector that (according to the NIST):
> ... neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply divert it to ground,
> where it can do no harm.
But again I am only reposting what you ignored. One 'whole house' protector routinely earths small surges and direct lightning strikes. And remains functional. The numbers. A typical lightning strike is 20,000 amps. A minimal 'whole house' protector (for lightning and all smaller surges) is 50,000 amps. A solution that costs tens or 100 times less money for smaller surges also makes the direct lightning strike irrelevant. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Numbers say why protectors were harmlessly earthing direct lightning strikes even 100 years ago - and remained functional. Denial does not change reality.
Reposted because anger apparently caused your eyes to glaze over.
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CRT_Ben
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1684
Location: Northern Virginia
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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westom...you apparently joined right before your first post here: http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=223810#223810
Since, you have posted 32 times regarding nothing but lightning strikes and/or surge protection. This is not a lightning strike forum. It's not a surge protection forum. Why are you here??
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| CRT_Ben wrote: | westom...you apparently joined right before your first post here: http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=223810#223810
Since, you have posted 32 times regarding nothing but lightning strikes and/or surge protection. This is not a lightning strike forum. It's not a surge protection forum. Why are you here?? |
Thank you.... 
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| CRT_Ben wrote: | | Since, you have posted 32 times regarding nothing but lightning strikes and/or surge protection. This is not a lightning strike forum. It's not a surge protection forum. Why are you here?? |
Because this thread is about surge protection? There are hundreds and hundreds of posts from HD Fury users that don't have the least interest in CRT projectors, and thousands of threads on subjects other than CRT projectors. Lots of people here rarely post about CRT projectors, but post about a plethora of other things... Why are you singling this guy out?
Personally, I've enjoyed westom's posts... They've been quite informative, IMHO.
SC
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CRT_Ben
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1684
Location: Northern Virginia
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | CRT_Ben wrote: | | Since, you have posted 32 times regarding nothing but lightning strikes and/or surge protection. This is not a lightning strike forum. It's not a surge protection forum. Why are you here?? |
Because this thread is about surge protection? There are hundreds and hundreds of posts from HD Fury users that don't have the least interest in CRT projectors, and thousands of threads on subjects other than CRT projectors. Lots of people here rarely post about CRT projectors, but post about a plethora of other things... Why are you singling this guy out?
Personally, I've enjoyed westom's posts... They've been quite informative, IMHO.
SC |
If you recall I've called out Ron once or twice as well...I'm an equal opportunity ball buster. HD Fury users are here because the product is sold through this website. Many off-topic threads exist but exclusively off-topic PEOPLE are much more rare, like Ron and westom. Ron at least has a CRT. Sure a lot of the regulars may post more about off-topic items than CRTs but that's just because we've been here for so long. His first few posts presented an interesting viewpoint but he repeats the same things over and over without addressing many of the points that have been raised to him.
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westom
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| CRT_Ben wrote: | | If you recall I've called out Ron once or twice as well...I'm an equal opportunity ball buster. |
So you admit to being incendiary. You don't care about the topic. You don't like it. So you attack people to destroy dissemination of information.
I post on subjects I am strongly familiar with; when and where myths are widely believed. Will you tell me light bulbs are destroyed by power cycling? Another myth also exposed. And also is not the topic here. If you don't like the discussion, then leave. You are making nasty comments and disparaging remarks to the detriment of all. If you have knowledge, then post your facts and numbers. But you don't. So don’t post.
This discussion is not about people or appeasing an ego. This discussion is not about disparaging others as you take pride in doing. It is a discussion of technology and a very profitable myth widely promoted by hearsay. The least you could do is stay on topic.
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CRT_Ben
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1684
Location: Northern Virginia
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| westom wrote: | | CRT_Ben wrote: | | If you recall I've called out Ron once or twice as well...I'm an equal opportunity ball buster. |
So you admit to being incendiary. You don't care about the topic. You don't like it. So you attack people to destroy dissemination of information.
I post on subjects I am strongly familiar with; when and where myths are widely believed. Will you tell me light bulbs are destroyed by power cycling? Another myth also exposed. And also is not the topic here. If you don't like the discussion, then leave. You are making nasty comments and disparaging remarks to the detriment of all. If you have knowledge, then post your facts and numbers. But you don't. So don’t post.
This discussion is not about people or appeasing an ego. This discussion is not about disparaging others as you take pride in doing. It is a discussion of technology and a very profitable myth widely promoted by hearsay. The least you could do is stay on topic. |
I love it...keep telling people to leave who were here three and a half years before you  For all you know I could be the god of lightning strike protection. So f*ck off when you assume I have no knowledge...
Since you've answered my question and are here on a mythbusting spree, do you care to address the points that Mac has raised? Like electricity not taking one singular path (even if it's the path of least resistance to ground). Do you think that if you touched a live wire that was already shorted to ground that you wouldn't feel a thing?
Why are you talking about lightbulbs? And man, if you think my comments are somehow "nasty", I suspect you haven't seen the rest of the internet.
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westom
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| CRT_Ben wrote: | | Since you've answered my question and are here on a mythbusting spree, do you care to address the points that Mac has raised? Like electricity not taking one singular path (even if it's the path of least resistance to ground). |
I don't know what resistance question you are asking about. Another posted a question about a gap - ie open switch - that has megohms resistance. Well, yes, is resistance is linear. It’s not linear for all voltages or currents. If the gap in a switch can stop a surge, then why does three miles of sky not stop that same surge?
Well resistance is not a valid parameter. A surge is a current mode event. That means voltage will increase as necessary to blow across anything that might stop it. Wire impedance (not resistance) is a more important parameter.
Without better definitions of your question, I cannot answer it.
It comes down to this - quite simple. Either you are really asking technical questions. Or there are plenty of other discussions that would welcome incendiary conversations. I don't care if you are the founder. The discussion here is about protecting a CRT projector and other appliances. If anything needs protection, then everything does. Disconnecting is a more unreliable protection method especially since earthing and 'whole house' type protectors were even used in the last 1800 so that phone operators could work, with headsets attached to their heads, through every thunderstorm. These protection techniques are that well understood even that long ago. Plug-in devices violate those principles and may even make appliance damage easier.
In every case, the principle always applies. Each layer of protection is defined by the only and always required system component – earth ground. Protection is always about where energy dissipates. Any and every solution must answer that question. Which is why every protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Protections is always about where that current flows to get to earth.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| westom wrote: | | Disconnecting is a more unreliable protection method |
Alright, maybe you worded this incorrectly so I'll give you a chance to reword it.
I dont have a problem with this thread but what I have a problem with is you saying that a properly earth house with a whole house protector on the hot lines will give you 100% protection against any type of lightning strike. This statement is completely untrue. And the CnP I posted above concurs.
Will it give you a very good amount of protection.... sure. 100%.....never. Thats my problem with you.
Also the only one in this thread that appears to be incendiary is you.
If someone makes a comment or suggestion, you in not so many words call them dumb, stupid, dont know what your talking about.... and such. This is causing people to feel negative about you.
And it doesn't surprise me of SC's comment. He is the forum trouble maker anyways......
Oh, by the way SC. I'll be resurrecting another thread that you will just love. Gary will love it too.... LOL.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| westom wrote: | | CRT_Ben wrote: | | Since you've answered my question and are here on a mythbusting spree, do you care to address the points that Mac has raised? Like electricity not taking one singular path (even if it's the path of least resistance to ground). |
I don't know what resistance question you are asking about. |
Read my CnP!!!!!! Are you even reading anything anyone else says?
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| westom wrote: | | Will you tell me light bulbs are destroyed by power cycling? Another myth also exposed. |
Whoah, whoah... Wait, what? My own experiences seem to indicate otherwise... But, maybe I'm no considering all the variables. This thread is so exciting, I don't want to side-track it...  But,I'll be interested to hear what you have to say.
Light bulbs... Is power-cycling bad?
Cheers,
SC
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, f*ck it, i dont see the point in bothering to defend myself to Westom anymore. Im off to work where ill attempt to "grasp it"...
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westom
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | I dont have a problem with this thread but what I have a problem with is you saying that a properly earth house with a whole house protector on the hot lines will give you 100% protection against any type of lightning strike. This statement is completely untrue. And the CnP I posted above concurs.
Will it give you a very good amount of protection.... sure. 100%.....never. Thats my problem with you. |
Let's put numbers to the protection. From the IEEE Green Book entitled 'Static and Lightning Protection Grounding':
> Lightning cannot be prevented; it can only be intercepted or diverted to a path
> which will, if well designed and constructed, not result in damage. Even this
> means is not positive, providing only 99.5-99.9% protection. ...
> Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct strokes from
> one stroke per 30 years ... to one stroke per 6000 years ...
That's about as close to 100% as any homeowner should expect especially when the cost is about $1 per protected appliance.
All appliances contain massive protection. Whereas those standards 40 years ago were 600 volts, today, many appliances are rated in thousands of volts. For example, around 1960, mechanical clocks manufacturers decreased their failure rates to below 1% of previous rates by simply upgrading wire insulation from 2000 to 6000 volts. Nobody is saying a surge must be eliminated 100%. But a 100% protection system means the surge is well below what all appliances can withstand. What your CnP describes as not 100% protection system is 100% when any surge 'leakage' is well below what can cause damage. Routine is to have direct lightning strikes. And currents inside the building so small as to be only noise.
What will a plug-in protector do? Nothing effective. Anything effective is already inside the appliance. If that surge current does get inside the building, a plug-in protector does virtually nothing. And does not claim to do anything for that type of current.
Most everyone at one point makes this mistake. Many argue pointed lightning rods verses blunt. They discuss only what they see. But what determines lightning rod effectiveness is the item not seen - earth ground. Same applies to a 'whole house' protector. What makes any protector more effective? That which is not observed. Single point earth ground. How much surge current seeks earth ground inside a building? Equipotential and conductivity created by earth ground determine that answer. Question: How effective will any protection system be? Answer: How robust is the earthing system? With any protection system, it is only as effective as the unseen - earth ground.
Protection is always about layers. All protectors are installed for lightning protection - which also makes lesser transients (ie switching transients) also irrelevant. Each protection layer is only defined by the item always required in that layer: single point ground. A plug-in protector without earth is not a protection layer - no earthing. Above is a discussion of ‘secondary’ protection. Informed homeowners also inspect their ‘primary’ protection system. An example of what defines that protection layer and what to look for:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html
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westom
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | Whoah, whoah... Wait, what? My own experiences seem to indicate otherwise... But, maybe I'm no considering all the variables. |
The light bulb is a perfect example of conclusions based only in observation. From junior high science, we learn what is necessary to have a fact. A hypothesis based in well proven science. And the observation - the experiment. Without both, then we have no fact.
Your observation was that a light bulb burned out when powered on. That observation is not tempered by known facts. Therefore any conclusion meets the definition of junk science.
So we add the underlying science. How a light bulb fails. With hours of operation, the light bulb filament vaporizes onto the glass. You see that blackness inside the glass before the bulb will fail. That blackness, according to well proven science and defined in the industry bibl (IES Handbook), is determined by hours of operation and voltage (filament temperature).
When the filament is that damaged, then either the bulb will fail in the next few hours. Or it fails when powered on. But power cycling does not shorten a bulb life expectancy. A light bulb is a perfect example of a junk science conclusion created by using only observation.
Let's go back to lightning. Many have seen trees damaged by lightning. Therefore 'know' lightning is a massive force. But they only saw the exception. What statisticians call an outlier. In reality (research by Alan Taylor of the US Forestry Service), well over 95% of a trees struck by lightning leave no significant indication. Another example of what was observed verses what really exists when using good science practice. Another example of why observation alone results in junk science conclusions.
The point of the light bulb was not to discuss light bulbs. The point was to discuss how junk science conclusions are so easily believed. Struck trees and burned out light bulbs - completely different conclusions once good science practice and known facts are applied. Observation alone can only result in a speculation - a reason to study further.
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