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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| westom wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | I dont have a problem with this thread but what I have a problem with is you saying that a properly earth house with a whole house protector on the hot lines will give you 100% protection against any type of lightning strike. This statement is completely untrue. And the CnP I posted above concurs.
Will it give you a very good amount of protection.... sure. 100%.....never. Thats my problem with you. |
Let's put numbers to the protection. From the IEEE Green Book entitled 'Static and Lightning Protection Grounding':
> Lightning cannot be prevented; it can only be intercepted or diverted to a path
> which will, if well designed and constructed, not result in damage. Even this
> means is not positive, providing only 99.5-99.9% protection. ...
> Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct strokes from
> one stroke per 30 years ... to one stroke per 6000 years ... This philosophy is completely incorrect. This was dumb to even post. Makes no sense at all.
That's about as close to 100% as any homeowner should expect especially when the cost is about $1 per protected appliance. Completely untrue and again makes no sense at all.
All appliances contain massive protection. Whereas those standards 40 years ago were 600 volts, today, many appliances are rated in thousands of volts. For example, around 1960, mechanical clocks manufacturers decreased their failure rates to below 1% of previous rates by simply upgrading wire insulation from 2000 to 6000 volts. Nobody is saying a surge must be eliminated 100%. But a 100% protection system means the surge is well below what all appliances can withstand. What your CnP describes as not 100% protection system is 100% when any surge 'leakage' is well below what can cause damage. Routine is to have direct lightning strikes. And currents inside the building so small as to be only noise.
What will a plug-in protector do? Nothing effective. Anything effective is already inside the appliance. If that surge current does get inside the building, a plug-in protector does virtually nothing. And does not claim to do anything for that type of current.
Most everyone at one point makes this mistake. Many argue pointed lightning rods verses blunt. They discuss only what they see. But what determines lightning rod effectiveness is the item not seen - earth ground. Same applies to a 'whole house' protector. What makes any protector more effective? That which is not observed. Single point earth ground. How much surge current seeks earth ground inside a building? Equipotential and conductivity created by earth ground determine that answer. Question: How effective will any protection system be? Answer: How robust is the earthing system? With any protection system, it is only as effective as the unseen - earth ground.
Protection is always about layers. All protectors are installed for lightning protection - which also makes lesser transients (ie switching transients) also irrelevant. Each protection layer is only defined by the item always required in that layer: single point ground. A plug-in protector without earth is not a protection layer - no earthing. Above is a discussion of ‘secondary’ protection. Informed homeowners also inspect their ‘primary’ protection system. An example of what defines that protection layer and what to look for:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html
Blah blah blah blah...... |
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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You know what sucks westom. I can't even ask you a simple question and get a short, simple, intelligent answer.
I might as well talk to my dog. 
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| westom wrote: |
All appliances contain massive protection. |
What is this protection. Be very specific. And answer in your own words without quoting other writings which is what you seem to be doing. Oh, and keep it short. And specific. I am capable of understanding since I repair this stuff all the time including appliances.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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I also have to ask, what country are you in?
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | stefuel wrote: |
I totally agree with the un-plugging thing but.......................What if you're not home when the time is right 
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If I am leaving the house and know their might be a storm coming (watched the weather report) I go around unplugging before I leave. Again, 2 or 3 minutes, tops. And if I'm leaving for an extended period of time (traveling), all is unplugged.
And whats funny is, I do this when I could really just fix the stuff myself if it did get hit. Maybe its because I have seen so much stuff that has been hit.
And before anyone throws a side comment in here, yes, I also disconnect my roof antenna and internet line. |
What I do is run out into the middle of a field naked with aluminum foil wrapped around my head (both of them), holding a golf club as high in the sky as I can reach and a bottle of lube sticking outta my a$$
Happy Friday.................I'm on vacation 
_________________
Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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westom
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | You know what sucks westom. I can't even ask you a simple question and get a short, simple, intelligent answer. |
Maybe you should talk to your dog. When you don't like reality, you refuse to read. This from the IEEE was so simple AND answered your question exactly:
> Lightning cannot be prevented; it can only be intercepted or diverted to a path
> which will, if well designed and constructed, not result in damage. Even this
> means is not positive, providing only 99.5-99.9% protection. ...
> Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct strokes from
> one stroke per 30 years ... to one stroke per 6000 years ...
Now you want explained appliance design - in a sound byte. OK. A datasheet that says 15,000 volts protection - your soundbyte answer that make you expert<cough>:
http://datasheets.maxim-ic.com/en/ds/MAX1487E-MAX491E.pdf
Obviously it says nothing useful. But if you want a propaganda answer in only 'black and white' simplicity - there it is - 100% complete protection.
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westom
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | I also have to ask, what country are you in? |
Obviously, god's country. Living in the clouds, we worship earth ground.
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| westom wrote: |
All appliances contain massive protection.
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Not in my experience they dont... I dont see many appliances if any at all with components capable of withstanding much more than their nameplate RMS value. Taking that RMS value to peak value will tell you what they must withstand briefly, peak value of 110rms is about 155.5, peak of 230rms is about 325.3, but they arent designed to take that constantly, that peak will come round at 90* and 270* degrees, at 0* and 180*, the voltage will be zero. At 60Hz, that 360* cycle takes about 16.6ms, and about 20ms to complete at 50Hz.
Can you take some pictures and show us this protection you speak of? Im having trouble grasping your theory again...
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:37 am Post subject: |
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Now I know you have no idea of what you are talking about. And I'm not going to waste my time explaining this to you . You obviously have no electronics knowledge what so ever.
And your electric knowledge seems to be only copy and paste. You have yet to answer a question with your own words and dance around questions you can't find in a copy and paste.
So I wish you all the luck in the world and I will no longer have any conversations with you. Unless you post something of your own words and it has viable substance.
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David_Web
Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 418
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:18 am Post subject: |
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You linked to an ESD protected device. It it not relevant here what so ever.
_________________
SNR of people are ridiculously low.
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westom
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | Not in my experience they dont... I dont see many appliances if any at all with components capable of withstanding much more than their nameplate RMS value. |
CBEMA design standards for 1970 required 120 volt appliances to withstand up to 600 volts without damage; 240 volt appliance to withstand 1200 volts. That was a 40 year old standard. Intel ATX standards require transients up to 2000 volts without damage. Today, we design to meet 2,000 and 15,000 volt requirements even per various IEC 61000-4 standards.
Some examples of minimally sized 'whole house' protectors:
http://www.smarthome.com/4870.HTML
http://www.smarthome.com/4860.html
http://www.keison.co.uk/furse/furse06.htm
Protectors are simple science. The art is earthing. Asking questions about the protector and asking nothing about earthing says you still do not get it. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Refocus your attention on the most critical component in any protection system.
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| westom wrote: | | CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | Not in my experience they dont... I dont see many appliances if any at all with components capable of withstanding much more than their nameplate RMS value. |
CBEMA design standards for 1970 required 120 volt appliances to withstand up to 600 volts without damage; 240 volt appliance to withstand 1200 volts. |
You must think im stupid do you? Have you looked on the side of a strip of TPS lately to see what the specs are? last time i looked, which was not even 8 hours ago, it said, and i quote, .75kV/1kV, which means the insulation is good for 750 volts phase to neutral, and 1,000 volts phase to phase. There is NO STANDARD AT ALL that specifies a 230 volt appliance must withstand 1,200 volts, and youre pullin your pud if you think there is. The cabling isnt even rated to withstand that without insulation breakdown or failure to insulate as this case may be. If that is all the TPS will handle, how do you expect the flex leading to the appliance will cope with anything more?
Dont try to tell me im wrong, dont quote links to me you dont understand, and dont quote bible passages to me about your place of residence either.
Then you ramble on some horse sh*t about grounding, mate every outlet in this country has an earth connection unless it is a SELV outlet, and connected via the switch board to an earth stake or earth matting system which is required by AS/NZ 3000/2007 to be not more than 0.5 ohms. Joined to this earth stake via the switchboard earth bar is the neutral bar of the switchboard through the use of an MEN link, so as to equalize potential between neutral and earth. Everything in the house from the metal pipework to the metal framework to the reinforcing steel in the slab is connected to earth and that is REQUIRED BY LAW. So dont tell me i dont know what im talking about and dont grasp the concept or earthing or equipotential bonding, i know it very well. There is no art to it, its copper cable and guideline standards.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | westom wrote: | | CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | Not in my experience they dont... I dont see many appliances if any at all with components capable of withstanding much more than their nameplate RMS value. |
CBEMA design standards for 1970 required 120 volt appliances to withstand up to 600 volts without damage; 240 volt appliance to withstand 1200 volts. |
You must think im stupid do you? Have you looked on the side of a strip of TPS lately to see what the specs are? last time i looked, which was not even 8 hours ago, it said, and i quote, .75kV/1kV, which means the insulation is good for 750 volts phase to neutral, and 1,000 volts phase to phase. There is NO STANDARD AT ALL that specifies a 230 volt appliance must withstand 1,200 volts, and youre pullin your pud if you think there is. The cabling isnt even rated to withstand that without insulation breakdown or failure to insulate as this case may be. If that is all the TPS will handle, how do you expect the flex leading to the appliance will cope with anything more?
Dont try to tell me im wrong, dont quote links to me you dont understand, and dont quote bible passages to me about your place of residence either.
Then you ramble on some horse sh*t about grounding, mate every outlet in this country has an earth connection unless it is a SELV outlet, and connected via the switch board to an earth stake or earth matting system which is required by AS/NZ 3000/2007 to be not more than 0.5 ohms. Joined to this earth stake via the switchboard earth bar is the neutral bar of the switchboard through the use of an MEN link, so as to equalize potential between neutral and earth. Everything in the house from the metal pipework to the metal framework to the reinforcing steel in the slab is connected to earth and that is REQUIRED BY LAW. So dont tell me i dont know what im talking about and dont grasp the concept or earthing or equipotential bonding, i know it very well. There is no art to it, its copper cable and guideline standards. |
You see Westom. This is what an intelligent, knowledgeable post looks like. No copy and paste. And words of fact.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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Ahhhhh, finally some devices. I've only been asking for months now.
Sooooooooooo, have you even bothered to read the datasheets on these devices? I'm chuckling inside and I'm not going to give you the answers.
But you need to read those datasheets and hopefully understand them.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| westom wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | | You know what sucks westom. I can't even ask you a simple question and get a short, simple, intelligent answer. |
Maybe you should talk to your dog. When you don't like reality, you refuse to read. This from the IEEE was so simple AND answered your question exactly:
> Lightning cannot be prevented; it can only be intercepted or diverted to a path
> which will, if well designed and constructed, not result in damage. Even this
> means is not positive, providing only 99.5-99.9% protection. ...
> Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct strokes from
> one stroke per 30 years ... to one stroke per 6000 years ...
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Oh, by the way, I read this section of the IEEE that you copied and pasted here and you left out a few things that it states in that paragraph, like...."even this means is not positive" and "This is fundamental theory"....and " complete protection can be provided only by enclosing the object in a complete metal encapsulation". And the strokes per year thing is only an incidence of theory.
I'm surprised you didn't bring up the rotating sphere for a zone of protection... lol.
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westom
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | You must think im stupid do you? Have you looked on the side of a strip of TPS lately to see what the specs are? last time i looked, which was not even 8 hours ago, it said, and i quote, .75kV/1kV, which means the insulation is good for 750 volts phase to neutral, and 1,000 volts phase to phase. There is NO STANDARD AT ALL that specifies a 230 volt appliance must withstand 1,200 volts, ... |
I think you are consumer who never had to design anything. Who never had to deal with reality if something was damaged by a surge. For example, wall receptacle grounds clearly are not earth ground. Otherwise earth lighting rods would be earthed even to a motherboard ground. Please learn basic electrical concepts. Motherboard ground connects to chassis ground connects to wall receptacle safety ground, connects to kitchen appliance chassis, connects to cable TV ground, connects to breaker box bus bar, connects to earth ground .... and all are electrically different. With introductory design experience, you would know that. You would even understand why motherboard ground is electrically different from chassis ground.
If we design something for 1kV without damage, then we tell you it is .75kV. Called derating. And it makes my point. All appliances contains significant protection.
What happens when a protector adjacent to the computer suffers a major surge. If a 330 volt protector for 120 volt operation, then actual voltages exceed 900 volts during a serious surge. If a 600 volt protector for 230 volt operation, then voltages may typically exceed 1400 volts. Don't take my word for it. MOV datasheets are quite clear about this in charts. You do consult design specs before posting? Why not? So where is the protection?
Wall receptacle safety ground is not earth ground. You would know that had you learned simple electrical concepts such as wire impedance. Many people will post nasty comments (and no specification numbers) because reality hurts the ego. Too many fear to admit having been scammed by plug-in protector propaganda. Sound like your every reply.
All applainces contain serious protection. Otherwise your are lining up every day to replace dimmer switches, clock radios, and dishwashers. Protection so effective that destructive surges occur typically once every seven years (a number that can vary significantly even within the same town). Why are you not replacing dimmer switches hourly? Because even dimmer switches and digital clocks already contain serious surge protection. Computers are required to have even better protection.
Protection inside all appliances is not overwhelmed when an informed consumer earths only one 'whole house' protector. The scammed consumer will reply with nasty comments and insults. Even your own numbers says appliances contain serious protection. Even Ethernet ports are rated for 2000 volts. Meanwhile CBEMA specs from the 1970s required 1200 volts for 240 volt appliances - despite your emotional outbursts.
None of this is for CasetheCorvetteman. He is entrenched in his myths. He demonstrates so many experts who know but forgot to first learn industry standards or basic design principles. Protection is always about where energy dissipates. Wall receptacle safety ground obviously is not earth ground. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.
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westom
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | Oh, by the way, I read this section of the IEEE that you copied and pasted here and you left out a few things that it states in that paragraph, like...."even this means is not positive" |
That's right. Because the IEEE also says 100% protection is possible is using a Faraday cage. You said 100% protection is not possible. Show me the homeowner who builds his house into a Faraday cage? You cannot. Cage was not relevant.
You said 100% protection is not possible. Then I and the IEEE agreed with you. Properly earthing a 'whole house' protector means only 99.5 to 99.9% protection. That means damage once every 30 years is now once every 6000 years. You could not even understand that? It is not 100% protection - and more than sufficient for every homeowner.
Why do you discuss Faraday cages? Because you want to argue and confuse all other readers. Wacko extremist do that. Is that your agenda?
Proper earthing and one 'whole house' protector means even direct lightning strikes cause no damage to the furnace, dimmer switches, and bathroom GFCIs that are so important to human safety. And what most needs protection during a surge - fire detection equipment. What protects that? Only earthing a 'whole house' protector. Instead, you would use a 'magic box' power strip to protect only one TV for tens or 100 times more money? Are you that dumb or just want to trade insults. What does a Faraday cage have to do with anything? Nothing. Your ego is exposed because I caught you lying to everyone. Really macgyer655 - can you demean yourself any further? I sure hope you are not an American. Otherwise this country is in serious trouble. Posted in a tone your intelligence level would understand.
Faraday cage is somehow relevant? How dumb. The informed homeowner wastes no money on plug-in solutions. Earths one 'whole house' protector to protect everything even from direct lightning strikes. Only the dumbest among us would argue that 99.9% protection is not good enough. And the dumbest among us will reply again with more insults - because that is your agenda. Faraday cage is somehow relevant only because you want to confuse others - an ego trip.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| westom wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | | Oh, by the way, I read this section of the IEEE that you copied and pasted here and you left out a few things that it states in that paragraph, like...."even this means is not positive" |
That's right. Because the IEEE also says 100% protection is possible is using a Faraday cage. You said 100% protection is not possible. Show me the homeowner who builds his house into a Faraday cage? You cannot. Cage was not relevant.
You said 100% protection is not possible. Then I and the IEEE agreed with you. Properly earthing a 'whole house' protector means only 99.5 to 99.9% protection. That means damage once every 30 years is now once every 6000 years. You could not even understand that? It is not 100% protection - and more than sufficient for every homeowner.
Why do you discuss Faraday cages? Because you want to argue and confuse all other readers. Wacko extremist do that. Is that your agenda?
Proper earthing and one 'whole house' protector means even direct lightning strikes cause no damage to the furnace, dimmer switches, and bathroom GFCIs that are so important to human safety. And what most needs protection during a surge - fire detection equipment. What protects that? Only earthing a 'whole house' protector. Instead, you would use a 'magic box' power strip to protect only one TV for tens or 100 times more money? Are you that dumb or just want to trade insults. What does a Faraday cage have to do with anything? Nothing. Your ego is exposed because I caught you lying to everyone. Really macgyer655 - can you demean yourself any further? I sure hope you are not an American. Otherwise this country is in serious trouble. Posted in a tone your intelligence level would understand.
Faraday cage is somehow relevant? How dumb. The informed homeowner wastes no money on plug-in solutions. Earths one 'whole house' protector to protect everything even from direct lightning strikes. Only the dumbest among us would argue that 99.9% protection is not good enough. And the dumbest among us will reply again with more insults - because that is your agenda. Faraday cage is somehow relevant only because you want to confuse others - an ego trip. |
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha, stop, my sides are hurting. Looks like I hit a nerve..... hahahahahahahahaha. I have exposed you as a fake and you cant handle it, hahahahahahahaha, so you now resort to name calling and insults.
You are funny...... Its not my ego that has been damaged....... hahahahahahahaha.
This is just comical.
Hey, did you read those datasheets or can't you understand them.... hahahahahaha.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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Just to recap for everyone else here, a good NEC recommended earth ground is going to help in the event of a power surge and some lightning strikes. And the breaker box devices are also an advantage to help protect your electronics under the same type events.
I just dont want you guys to be fooled to think you are completely protected. You are greatly protected, but not completely. The possibility is still there.
And the years thing is just funny because you cant predict lightning strikes and some locations have higher strike numbers and levels then others.
And to give a protection percentage on something that is unpredictable just doesn't make sense. Which is why IEEE states it as theory .
If anyone else here whats to have an intelligent conversation on this subject I would be glad to do so. I just cant talk to westom any more. My sides can't take it.
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westom
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha, stop, my sides are hurting. Looks like I hit a nerve..... hahahahahahahahaha. |
So that is why you are posting. You have no ability to grasp reality. You are here to exchange insults. That is why gives you a hard on.
Get a wife.
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