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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | Mac,
I appreciate your vast knowledge on caps and your experience on consumer electronics, which too have also been involved in.
But my comments is more geared toward commercial grade product, which does not and have not been using the same grade caps. therefore our experiences have been slightly different. So can you answer my question on which CRT projectors manufactured in the later 90's on had caps that leaked the same way that Curt indicated on that particular NEC, and why was the split later put on the top of the cap?
If your comment was geared more towards commercial grade then you should of said that. It certainly did not imply that.
Or do you have any experience with the later commercial grade equipment and the caps used?
Again, I'm not talking devices, I'm talking caps in general. Any device could end up with any grade of parts. Your comment was not consumer/commercial orientated. I also said in my reply that commercial devices should most likely have better quality caps
Concerning ESR. It would be nice to have a ESR meter and I plan to get one one day. But you'll be surprised at what one could do simply with a scope and the right equipment.
What I do know is that a scope and what ever other equipment cant do is make a failing cap good again or prevent it from failing if the process has already started..the scope will also not tell you if a cap is failing. Unless you have your scope set up for testing ESR.
And my comments on the LVPS and ESR... If a marquee LVPS has been working flawlessly for thousands and thousands of hours, at what point did the high ESR cap caused it to fail. Forget the consumer stuff for now. no way would it ever get those hours of use on it and still maintain good scoped readouts.
This is device orientated so it doesnt fall under my comment. Look Mike, I have been one of your biggest supporters of projectors NOT having issues with consistent cap failure. So I would have to assume they are using better quality caps. Even the supposed NEC cap issues I dont feel fall under general poor made caps but possibly lower grade better made ones. And what about those supplies that have failed, or other boards that have failed. What caused them to fail? Could it have been a high ESR cap. You surely dont know. You dont have a meter. What were those dried up caps out of that you posted pictures of recently where I first mention testing ESR to you?
No question I understand ESR. so don't think you need to finish a thread on caps to make sure I'm informed properly on it. And also keep in mind what I said about certain caps failing in certain circuits, which I find to be common because of the circuit. But regardless of the theories, what caps of the later batch used in commercial gear has had a high failure rate from drying out. leaking out on the board from the bottom. And other than the CT cap failures, which commercial grade CRT projector using the later caps has a history of ESR failing caps in the power supply that actually caused the supply to fail?
If you truly understood ESR then why would you make this comment "I don't really get into the ESR thing, I'm thinking it may have more to do with audio and passive power supplies, because most of these projectors are not bothered at all when a cap also shows a bad ESR reading".[i]How would you know this? Your not testing ESR, right?
I spent almost a month back in January and a part of February looking into the Marquee LVPS. We even showed scoped measurements showing what the signal looked like coming out of the supply. I used my LVPS which had 40,000 hours on it, and my test Marquees LVPS which had even more hours of use."
How would you know if they are not bothered by ESR if you dont have an ESR meter? And a high ESR cap wont always affect a scope pattern. Marquees may not be affected by high ESR caps because it doesnt have any yet. How would you know without testing them.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | Quote: | | Todays good quality cap manufacturers have made great advancements in their products but there are also those shady manufacturers making crap caps. And the crap caps are going in the devices at the electronics manufacturers. Then the repair guy has to replace them with high quality one. |
Ok, so you are also acknowledging here that there are better made caps, as well, as there still being cheaply made caps.
Already said that.
Do you think these cheaply made caps would hold up in the switching power supply, deflection, etc. of one of the projectors I've mentioned?
Answered that.
| Quote: | | Now you would think that crt projector manufacturers would have used high quality parts in the devices, especially since they cost soooooooo much when new. But, who knows. For the most part they still seem to be holding up pretty well in what most here are running |
Are you agreeing with me here??
If you mean front crt projectors then yes, I always did. Are you speed reading again Mike? lol
| Quote: | | Today, manufacturers need to sell tv's cheaply so people will buy them. So they use cheap made parts. Cap failure on standard consumer electronics built over the past 8 years is staggering. And that is a fact. I talk to these guys replacing them on a daily basis. And this includes tv's made through 2009. And other electronics devices are included in this also. |
Of course this would be the case. where were these TV's manufactured and what would be the production cost of each one of them. Even on the ones also being used in commercial applications to get around the cost of the more experience commercial monitors, when I'm asked about repairing one, I simply suggest replacing it. Giving the quality of the components I've been seeing in them, I'm surprised they work as long as they do.
| Quote: | So what does this mean?
It means that even though the cap is performing well in the circuit that it is in...... it is still failing. Because the ESR test has shown the cap has lost some fluid and is starting to fail. How long before it fails? That depends. |
Again, I fully understand ESR and the importance of it. My point is simple, if I've been seeing projectors run up to 100,000 hours and did so without a cap failure. Would these projectors be using "cheap" caps, or is it possibly that the cap is a better grade cap that may also be an inexpensive cap?
Again, your saying without cap failure. Has there been any failure? And if so, what was the root cause of the failure? You cant use the phrase, without cap failure if your not testing ESR. You yourself has already shown in another thread that a dried out cap still had a good value test. But it surely cant perform without any fluid. If your getting 100,000 hours without any electronic failure then your a member of a very elite club, lol. Plus if you've been watching 100,000 hours on the display yourself, you watch too much tv, lol.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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This isn't a catfight. Do we coin a new term... TECHFIGHT! 
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Sparky015
Joined: 12 May 2009
Posts: 1185
Location: Cleveland / Akron, OH
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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I can attest to ESR. We use a cap bank at work to provide current to a solenoid to not only actuate it, but hold it openwhile subjected to extreme pressures trying to counteract it. We've had some assemblies come back for repair and not show the ability to hold or actuate the solenoid. They actually show the correct cap value. It's not until we hookup the ESR meter that it shows way out of spec. Granted, this application is different than a TV, but hopefully it illustrates the importance of ESR. Not that I want to enter the techfight, but I wanted to share. That design really opened my eyes to caps.
_________________
~Paul
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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I did not mean for my replies to insinuate any type of aggressive response. I guess I'm just trying to be firm in what I'm trying to say. No offense intended Mike, 
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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This SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY in the square circle.
TECHFIGHT!
BE THERE!
We'll sell you the ticket for the entire seat, but you'll only need the edge!
_________________
Tech support for nothing
CRT.
HD done right!
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | | This isn't a catfight. Do we coin a new term... TECHFIGHT! |
oh goody, I really had to pee too .I'm really bored of the cap-fight but I really don't see any other parts on a board that start to fail slowly and then eventually crap out entirely. Resistors, transistors, diodes, etc. All those things are either working or failed, there's no sort-of-working condition for any of them.
A couple of gems from recent Marquee board re-builds, CLM DPB and CVA. The DPB was in a machine that would experience random shut-downs.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | I did not mean for my replies to insinuate any type of aggressive response. I guess I'm just trying to be firm in what I'm trying to say. No offense intended Mike, |
What you are doing is boasting a point about caps that I agree with, but you keep forgetting my point of it not being such an issue on the commercial sets, and the fact is, how is these sets getting so many hours and it's rare that one actually fail from A cap. the exception is the few caps that I had already mentioned would be common failing because of the circuits that work in.
Now, can you do a search and bring up a recent (commercial grade) CRT projector that has a lot of cap failures?
If in fact what you're preaching is that the caps are failing from high ESR ratings.
I'm not doubting the importance of ESR at all, all I'm trying to get across is cap failings in commercial grade CRT projectors, and you keep going from a consumer TV reference, where the entire board in your common TV was made in China and at a price of maybe $50.00 for the complete electronics.
Again, show me a thread, where someone had to replace a cap because it caused the LVPS to fail?
I chose a LVPS because it should be the real test.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | I really don't see any other parts on a board that start to fail slowly and then eventually crap out entirely. Resistors, transistors, diodes, etc. All those things are either working or failed, there's no sort-of-working condition for any of them.
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Good, maybe you can tell me what set this would be happening on, and what year it was manufactured. Hopefully, you're not referring to a consumer TV.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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Dragan, those are scary pix above. I don't think I've EVER had a bad cap on a Marquee. (thinking, thinking)..
wait, I have had a couple of shorted caps in the LVPS, but they were not electrolytics.
Seeing that pix above would make me suspect of the rest of the set. I'll bet it was installed in far too hot an environment, and the caps cooked themselves to death.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | I don't think I've EVER had a bad cap on a Marquee. (thinking, thinking)..
wait, I have had a couple of shorted caps in the LVPS, but they were not electrolytics |
Well Curt, that makes two of us. You think the failed caps that were not electrolytics failed from an ESR problem..
| Quote: | | Seeing that pix above would make me suspect of the rest of the set. I'll bet it was installed in far too hot an environment, and the caps cooked themselves to death. |
Yep, that's very unusual. Looks to me to be external in nature, maybe heat or moisture related.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | | I did not mean for my replies to insinuate any type of aggressive response. I guess I'm just trying to be firm in what I'm trying to say. No offense intended Mike, |
What you are doing is boasting a point about caps that I agree with, but you keep forgetting my point of it not being such an issue on the commercial sets, and the fact is, how is these sets getting so many hours and it's rare that one actually fail from A cap. the exception is the few caps that I had already mentioned would be common failing because of the circuits that work in.
Now, can you do a search and bring up a recent (commercial grade) CRT projector that has a lot of cap failures?
If in fact what you're preaching is that the caps are failing from high ESR ratings.
Holy crap Mike. You better check your medication. I think your getting low, lol.
I HAVE BEEN SAYING IN THIS THREAD THAT i WAS NOT TARGETING COMMERCIAL OR CONSUMER PRODUCTS IN MY COMMENTS. I'M TARGETING CAPS IN GENERAL AND TO YOUR SPECIFIC COMMENTS ABOUT CAPS NOT BEING BAD ANYMORE.
Now as far as a recent CRT projector??????? There is only one left, isn't there? And what are the quality of those caps they are using now?????? I have no idea.
I'm not doubting the importance of ESR at all, all I'm trying to get across is cap failings in commercial grade CRT projectors, so your saying that commercial crt projectors never fail? they just keep running? How is Curt still in business?
and you keep going from a consumer TV reference, where the entire board in your common TV was made in China and at a price of maybe $50.00 for the complete electronics.
I'm not referencing consumer or commercial. I'm referencing caps.
Again, show me a thread, where someone had to replace a cap because it caused the LVPS to fail? Has a LVPS in any crt projector ever failed? And if so, what caused it to fail?
I chose a LVPS because it should be the real test. |
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: |
How is Curt still in business?[/color] |
Check this out:
| Curt Palme wrote: | Dragan, those are scary pix above. I don't think I've EVER had a bad cap on a Marquee. (thinking, thinking)..
wait, I have had a couple of shorted caps in the LVPS, but they were not electrolytics.
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So one thing for sure, of all the Marquees he's been repairing over the years, the repairs must NOT have been cap related. Or should I have said electrolytic related..
| Quote: | I'm not referencing consumer or commercial. I'm referencing caps.
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When you can preach your cap gospel from a commercial CRT projector EXPERIENCE, get back to me, because there's a HUGE difference between consumer and commercial electronics, even when it comes to the grade of caps..
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: |
How is Curt still in business?[/color] |
Check this out:
| Curt Palme wrote: | Dragan, those are scary pix above. I don't think I've EVER had a bad cap on a Marquee. (thinking, thinking)..
wait, I have had a couple of shorted caps in the LVPS, but they were not electrolytics.
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So one thing for sure, of all the Marquees he's been repairing over the years, the repairs must NOT have been cap related. Or should I have said electrolytic related..
How would he know for sure since he just started ESRing caps. And actually he has admitted that since he has started ESR testing he is finding more bad caps and fixing things that were previously unable to find. All I'm saying is that commercial boards fail. And its possible that a dried up cap that still shows good value could cause the failure.
| Quote: | I'm not referencing consumer or commercial. I'm referencing caps.
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When you can preach your cap gospel from a commercial CRT projector EXPERIENCE, get back to me, because there's a HUGE difference between consumer and commercial electronics, even when it comes to the grade of caps..
Hey, your the one preaching commercial stuff. I just commented on caps in general. And if you cant acknowledge that ESR testing of caps is the superior way to currently test them then just keep beating your self up. Plus I already have said that crt projectors seem to have fewer cap problems. I dont know why you keep saying I said something different.
And when you start ESRing caps mike, then I'll listen to your preaching..........You may be repairing projectors that still have dried up caps in there and you wouldn't even know it. Your commenting on ESR and you dont even practice it.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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And even commercial grade high quality caps go bad. Its all in knowing how to test them.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | mp20748 wrote: |
The main problem with caps was solved some time back when they started using a different method (Hermetically) to seal them. Before then, it was common to see caps spew their innards. That's not been the case for awhile now that the caps are so well sealed from leaking and finding one that actually dried out on the shelf (shelf life) is also rare.
I don't really get into the ESR thing, I'm thinking it may have more to do with audio and passive power supplies, because most of these projectors are not bothered at all when a cap also shows a bad ESR reading.
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LOL. Good thing you didn't post this on a electronics repair site, Mike. The techs would hammer you silly. |
Just figured I'd repost what started all this. I'm still trying to find where is says commercial caps only.
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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out of approx 130 or so Aluminum EL caps on the marquee boards (not including power supply's), only 2 or 3 are 160C rated or what I consider "premium grade". The rest are 85C generic bottom of the barrel parts. The fact that they have lasted on average of 13 years for a typical 1997 set shows that Rubycon (Panasonic) simply had very good QC in place when they made these. I still feel , based solely on pic performance observations, that they are at or near the end of their life spans. Before anyone jumps down my throat that's simply MY OPINION.
What would be really interesting is to to take the next set I pull and bag them according to the board they came off of, then have Curt test them for ESR. Shouldn't take more than 20/30 minutes to do a general evaluation. You up for that Curt?
Last night I also thought about having Curt send me a set for the "HD mod's" work but I'm just too back-logged to do that right now. Hopefully later this summer as I would love to have someone who's had eyeballs on a thousand Stock MArquee's evaluate perecieved differences or improvements. I've been doing this for months now and since I test everything before/after the difference to me is very obvious but again, that's MHO.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | out of approx 130 or so Aluminum EL caps on the marquee boards (not including power supply's), only 2 or 3 are 160C rated or what I consider "premium grade". The rest are 85C generic bottom of the barrel parts. The fact that they have lasted on average of 13 years for a typical 1997 set shows that Rubycon (Panasonic) simply had very good QC in place when they made these |
The next time you open a LVPS and see those large series rail inductors (9 each), they are the reason why 85c caps were fine in most of the circuits.
The Rubycons were most likely designed and geared for industrial sales, and that may be why they have held up so well. So well, that the only caps that were upgraded from the manufacturer after many years of observing the boards was the two 22uf 160v on the neck boards. they too held up well, but suffered in higher temperature environments, and that's why on the boards that has a burning on the 400 ohm resistor leads, the caps most likely also suffered. So they were later replaced with 105c temp caps. But under normal operating conditions, the 85c on the neck boards held up fine, even on very high hour Marquees.
The sets that has the burning on the resistors leads were more commonly found in flight simulators and other closed environments where the projector and neck boards were subjected to very high environmental temperatures - this would not be considered a cap failure, based on the recommended operating conditions stated for the projector.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | draganm wrote: | | out of approx 130 or so Aluminum EL caps on the marquee boards (not including power supply's), only 2 or 3 are 160C rated or what I consider "premium grade". The rest are 85C generic bottom of the barrel parts. The fact that they have lasted on average of 13 years for a typical 1997 set shows that Rubycon (Panasonic) simply had very good QC in place when they made these |
The next time you open a LVPS and see those large series rail inductors (9 each), they are the reason why 85c caps were fine in most of the circuits.
The Rubycons were most likely designed and geared for industrial sales, and that may be why they have held up so well. So well, that the only caps that were upgraded from the manufacturer after many years of observing the boards was the two 22uf 160v on the neck boards. they too held up well, but suffered in higher temperature environments, and that's why on the boards that has a burning on the 400 ohm resistor leads, the caps most likely also suffered. So they were later replaced with 105c temp caps. But under normal operating conditions, the 85c on the neck boards held up fine, even on very high hour Marquees.
The sets that has the burning on the resistors leads were more commonly found in flight simulators and other closed environments where the projector and neck boards were subjected to very high environmental temperatures - this would not be considered a cap failure, based on the recommended operating conditions stated for the projector. |
Now this is the Mike Parker posts that I remember so well and admire......
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