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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:40 am Post subject: Marquee Banding Fix |
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Of the most recent mods I'll be offering around the first of April, the following one I'm most excited about..
Finally there's a fix to make that dreaded BANDING on a marquee completely go away. The mod is not a simple one. It would require quite a bit work to include a special. that's all I'll be sharing on it for now, but the pictures (below) should clearly show how well it works.
More will be mentioned about it and the Super VIM only mod real soon.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:47 am Post subject: |
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Damn, that's REALLY impressive!!!
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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Sparky015
Joined: 12 May 2009
Posts: 1185
Location: Cleveland / Akron, OH
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| Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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Cool. Nice mod work. Is this banding only on the newer machines? I don't believe mine has it, or is there a setup that shows it the best?
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~Paul
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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Banding can be avoided by a very careful and methodic set up. There is a great wright up on Tim's web site on a procedure that helps eliminate it.
But for those who do not have the patients the pictured Mod is a must have. I Have the pre programed chip here but have not done the mod yet.
But was told its impossible to get banding with it.
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
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dturco
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3778
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland
TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner
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| Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Sparky015 wrote: | | Cool. Nice mod work. Is this banding only on the newer machines? I don't believe mine has it, or is there a setup that shows it the best? |
If you don't see it do not go looking for it. Just be happy.
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Firefly rules. Can't stop the signal.
http://www.hulu.com/firefly
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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Sparky015
Joined: 12 May 2009
Posts: 1185
Location: Cleveland / Akron, OH
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| Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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Ahhh, got it. I do remember reading that article on Tim's site now that you mention it. I will keep this in mind as I'm redoing mine after the upgrade to 9" LC. Hopefully it will continue to be not needed!
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Sparky015 wrote: | | Ahhh, got it. I do remember reading that article on Tim's site now that you mention it. I will keep this in mind as I'm redoing mine after the upgrade to 9" LC. Hopefully it will continue to be not needed! |
Once you pop those 9" in that projector, and when/if you're able to dial it in at 1920x1080P 60 or 72 hz, you're going to get some banding. To what degree it varies. And that's even if you have an Ultra.
The lower the scan rate the less you'll notice it. the higher the rate, the more it'll show up. the banding is the horizontal lines touching together. And the more lines there are the more likely they will touch together, and that explains why the problem is more obvious at higher scan rates.
And then this, once you zero out your grid, there's no banding, but once you apply geometry adjustments- how likely would you be able to maintain good geometry and not have those lines touching at higher scan rates?
Now when you get those 9" tubes in your setup, try 1920x1080P native or 72hz and then get back to me. If you're able to make the banding go away at the higher scan rates, then you don't have the projector fully optimized for that rate.
keep in mind that you'll have to display a perfect geometry pattern at a higher scan rate without any banding. And the setup must be fully optimized to show the full line structure (bandwidth).
Remember this: Whenever you put a marquee at 1920x1080P 60 or higher, you bring out 3 of the flaws in it that was never corrected either at Electrohome or VDC in a production model..
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Sparky015
Joined: 12 May 2009
Posts: 1185
Location: Cleveland / Akron, OH
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| Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Mike. To sum it up, by doing these upgrades in order to fully resolve 1920X1080p 60Hz or better, I'm basically hitting the edge of performance where this banding occurs. To even have a shot at not having it, I need to have a perfect setup, but probably still run the risk of still having the issue.
When the upgrades are complete, I will report back. If I can't fully resolve 1920X1080p 60Hz or better after all of these mods and upgrades, I will be a very unhappy camper! About the only thing this pj doesn't have is frankenyokes at this point!
Paul
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Sparky015 wrote: | Thanks Mike. To sum it up, by doing these upgrades in order to fully resolve 1920X1080p 60Hz or better, I'm basically hitting the edge of performance where this banding occurs. To even have a shot at not having it, I need to have a perfect setup, but probably still run the risk of still having the issue.
When the upgrades are complete, I will report back. If I can't fully resolve 1920X1080p 60Hz or better after all of these mods and upgrades, I will be a very unhappy camper! About the only thing this pj doesn't have is frankenyokes at this point!
Paul |
Yep, you got it!
Your goal would be to get your setup fully optimized. And if you plan to do that at 1920x1080P 60/72hz, it'll require some work. And once that's done, you're also going to see some of the flaws in the projector. much like how my left-side ringing shows up in my screen shots.
Think for a minute about the SMPTE test pattern and the two top vertical/horizontal patterns. You have two pattern with both "ONE" pixel lines representing both vertical and horizontal resolutions -- that should be your goal, and that would be to get both line structures properly dialed in on the screen. Then from there you move out to see how well you'll be able to make the same happen in other places on the screen.
When those lines 9both groups are being displayed, you have respected the line structure, meaning that you have achieved both focus and bandwidth optimization.
You can however, tweak the projector to make the banding appear to be gone, but try and make that happen in respect to maintaining the line structure!
Now you should understand why I don't have my geometry to perfection in my screenshots....if I tweak the geometry to perfection I'll loose line structure..
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Sparky015
Joined: 12 May 2009
Posts: 1185
Location: Cleveland / Akron, OH
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| Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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Ah, ok I'm following. I love this stuff! I can't wait to complete the work and start tweaking, although I'm not sure I will be able to fully mazimize the tubes with stock yokes. We'll see. It's going to be a busy spring!
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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Hopefully Paul I'll Have a complete set of Custom Barkenstein Yokes made up. I am awaiting one more set to come in so I can use the ones I have now for experimenting and the ones I have coming( hopefully) will get the best wind combination.
This also depends on my personal time to get them apart, rewind them, put them back together and test .
But when that happens i'll drive down to bring them and help you do a set up. Your only a few hours away.
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
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Sparky015
Joined: 12 May 2009
Posts: 1185
Location: Cleveland / Akron, OH
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| Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Nash, I would love to be apart of your testing. IF you'd like my help with the winding, let me know. We have a winder here at work we use to make some of our sensors. I could probably snag it's use for a few prototypes on the weekends.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | | Damn, that's REALLY impressive!!! |
Ditto that!!! Mike that is AWESOME!!!
craigr
_________________
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:28 am Post subject: |
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There is another way to totally eliminate banding and produce better colors,.................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................. buy a AmPro 
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A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
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dvh99
Joined: 25 Dec 2009
Posts: 2158
Location: nederland
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| Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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where can i obtain the chips to do this mod.
i thought i saw a picture of the mod but now its gone??
think this mod will take me 2 hrs, not nearly as long as the tants.
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marquee 9500ultra HD10L moome hdmi1.3 v3+ some mods.
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David_Web
Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 418
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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Wow. Geometry engine of the marquee is really lousy. As I set up mine I noticed the digital bits and groups that makes up the "curved" correction.
No wonder it bands as the "group of lines" are pulled apart and pushed together with no interpolation between groups at all.
The problem is digital.
For some reason, even when returning geometry to 50 I still seem to get banding. Although faint.
To avoid some of the problems, mainly the band at the center of the screen one could use exactly mirrored amount of top/bottom bow.
How bad would using convergence instead of geometry be?
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| David_Web wrote: | Wow. Geometry engine of the marquee is really lousy. As I set up mine I noticed the digital bits and groups that makes up the "curved" correction.
No wonder it bands as the "group of lines" are pulled apart and pushed together with no interpolation between groups at all.
The problem is digital.
For some reason, even when returning geometry to 50 I still seem to get banding. Although faint.
To avoid some of the problems, mainly the band at the center of the screen one could use exactly mirrored amount of top/bottom bow.
How bad would using convergence instead of geometry be? |
I usually adjust bow until I find the sweet spot that has the least banding. Sometimes linearity can affect the banding as well. Find the setting with the least banding with the geometry controls.
After that, use interpolated zone to fine tune the shape. Follow that by random access zone. It will work, but there is always some banding even if it is very very faint.
Mike's mod seems to eliminate all the banding thous so it will be a much better fix with less stress on the point system.
craigr
_________________
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JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
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Sparky015
Joined: 12 May 2009
Posts: 1185
Location: Cleveland / Akron, OH
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| Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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I take it someone is going to sell this mod, and that's why the pic of it was removed? If this chip has to be programmed, it's kind of hard to copy.
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