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Mark_A_W
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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Sony HW15.
Lcos at $3k.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:33 am Post subject: |
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Mark,
Is that your recommendation or what you just bought? The rumor over at AVS is that Epson is going to be coming out with their own LCOS chips at Cedia. This could provide some good competition for Sony and JVC.
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Mark_A_W
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:42 am Post subject: |
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Recommendation - well, at least a heads up.
A mate replaced his XG-751 with one.
It is amazing - so sharp.
Absolute black level is the only area where the CRT is better (abet an important one).
But I'd still swap my XG LC in a flash for one.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:02 am Post subject: |
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You are forgetting motion resolution. It doesn't seem to bother most people, but I noticed how good CRT does motion while watching Kiev's G70.
I agree that CRT's time is short for a lot of people. If Epson does come out with a good LCOS and we could get some good LEDs, then I could see even the die hards switching.
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Mark_A_W
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:57 am Post subject: |
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We didn't look at a specific test.
But I didn't notice any issues watching all the slow pans in Baraka (bluray).
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, I'm not going to find it easy saying this, but recently I had the chance to see the Anthem knockoff of the HD550 (RS20 ?), the JVC DLA-RS15, and the Epson 9500UB. These projectors happen to be setup at two locations where the wife and I were auditioning some new paradigm Studio 20's for a listening room.
I was stunned regarding how far LCD projection had come in apparent fill-factor, which is the percentage of space occupied by a pixel and transmits actual visual data. LCoS was always high (around 91%, IIRC), and DLP about the same (89%), but the LCD five years ago was still sitting around 55% and screen door all over the place.
No more screen door. My distant vision (near-sided-ness) has not changed in the last seven years. Sitting at or within 1.5x screen widths of a 16:9 screen, I had a little difficult time trying to make out the pixel structure adjacency that was so easy to see on older LCD implementations. Also, I did not notice any mechanical iris operation and actually forgot about dynamic contrast mechanics to ask if the iris was open, closed, or dynamic.
While the perceived blacks looked good, its is just that ... perception. I had nothing with me, nor was the boutique rep prepared with critical material for viewing for me to say anything about black levels. Still, a 1080P Epson 8500UB can be had for $2100, and the 9500UB for $3100. The 9500 is the 8500 with ceiling mount, extra lamp, and three year exchange coverage.
Caveat: The 8500UB is notorious, though, for having a high-necessity of exchange due to panel alignment. And while electronic convergence per panel can be offered, its not on the Epson. On the other hand, the JVC, and the Anthem knockoff, was simply a nice damn picture.
I am a fan of Liquid Crystal on Silicon regardless if its JVC's D-ila or Sony's SXRD. The MTF of the technology lends itself to a nice film-like quality. I am not sure how JVC is implementing the means to take a device with limited 2K-4::1 CR and extrapolating 50K-70K:1 out the lens assy, but its smooth in operation. I have to wonder about external color-filtering to overcome RGB color limiting factors of the lamp might yield in terms of CR, and filtration for lowering BL.
But one thing I can say is I spent the last week over on AVS and noticed several individuals common to this forum haven just made used digital purchases, or inquiring about such if not new items.
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Mark_A_W
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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You can converge the Sonys.
It's freaky. They do it with image processing, but it works.
It makes my brain hurt - you can move the lines in 0.1 pixel increments, and we couldn't spot it going sharp-> blurry -> sharp. The convergence crosshair pattern just moved smoothly across the screen.
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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!? How does THAT work? I don't see how you could do something like that unless you had a much higher pixel density than the resulting 1920x1080 target resolution.
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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I thought the more pricey Sony's had mechanical convergence.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | | !? How does THAT work? I don't see how you could do something like that unless you had a much higher pixel density than the resulting 1920x1080 target resolution. |
I believe you are actually moving the panels, not shifting the image created (like with keystone correction in a digital).
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | | You are forgetting motion resolution. It doesn't seem to bother most people, but I noticed how good CRT does motion while watching Kiev's G70. |
I was worried about that switching, but I think that this is another one of those "you have to be looking for it" things. I notice it VERY rarely on my digi and noticed it most in side by side comparisons of the digi with the CRT. I could never get my wife to see the difference try as hard as I might. I think in your "doesn't seem to bother most people" most is not defined as 51% but more like 99+%. 
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Dave
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Mark_A_W
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| WanMan wrote: | | I thought the more pricey Sony's had mechanical convergence. |
Maybe.
But this is bottom of the SXRD range. About A$3200, which would be less than $3k in the US.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| WanMan wrote: | | While the perceived blacks looked good, its is just that ... perception. |
Hey Einstein, the way humans perceive things is all that matters to audio and video since we cannot perceive it any other way!
| WanMan wrote: | | I am not sure how JVC is implementing the means to take a device with limited 2K-4::1 CR and extrapolating 50K-70K:1 out the lens assy, but its smooth in operation. |
It is not in the lens assembly. They use a voltage controlled polarization filter.
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Dave
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | Spanky Ham wrote: | | You are forgetting motion resolution. It doesn't seem to bother most people, but I noticed how good CRT does motion while watching Kiev's G70. |
I was worried about that switching, but I think that this is another one of those "you have to be looking for it" things. I notice it VERY rarely on my digi and noticed it most in side by side comparisons of the digi with the CRT. I could never get my wife to see the difference try as hard as I might. I think in your "doesn't seem to bother most people" most is not defined as 51% but more like 99+%. |
It may be. I guess it is right up there with rainbows.
I am hoping to drop by VDC next week and see the new LED pj. It has motion blur and this may eliminate one more advantage of CRT.
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huggy
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Posts: 927
Location: Melbourne,Australia
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:53 am Post subject: |
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Out of all the digitals I've seen (including the JVC) I actually preferred the image from one of the cheaper DLP's (can't remember the brand though). Blacks were better and their was something about the image that was appealing.I think it's the DLP pop they talk about.
My problem however was the friggin rainbows,I see them all the time,I tried not too but they were just too distracting.It was the only reason I decided to stay with crt.
Dave
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | WanMan wrote: | | While the perceived blacks looked good, its is just that ... perception. |
Hey Einstein, the way humans perceive things is all that matters to audio and video since we cannot perceive it any other way!
| WanMan wrote: | | I am not sure how JVC is implementing the means to take a device with limited 2K-4::1 CR and extrapolating 50K-70K:1 out the lens assy, but its smooth in operation. |
It is not in the lens assembly. They use a voltage controlled polarization filter. |
I chose poorly by saying perceiving black, vs. perceiving 'black level' in a scene.
For instance, take a scene from Men in Black. Any old daytime scene in which the two leads are in their white shirts and black jackets in broad daylight. The perceived level of black, in how it is represented, is quite good on almost any technology, including those digital technologies from five years ago.
In another example, take the scene from Dirty Harry in which Harry walks down a dark alley, at night, trying to follow what he believes might be the killer. He stands on a trash can, but get's pulled down and beaten up. This is a very dark scene (one of my favorites), and it is one in which the technology affords your perception of black level to be something completely different.
Dynamic contrast aside, its the specific scene in which how one's brain perceives the black level, or the representation of black, that changes while the technology itself does not, not the technology's ability to represent black [level]. And it is one reason no retail shop showcasing projectors these days will ever have a movie like Dirty Harry on hand, because it risks showing the limitations of that multi-thousand dollar projector.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | | Person99 wrote: | | Spanky Ham wrote: | | You are forgetting motion resolution. It doesn't seem to bother most people, but I noticed how good CRT does motion while watching Kiev's G70. |
I was worried about that switching, but I think that this is another one of those "you have to be looking for it" things. I notice it VERY rarely on my digi and noticed it most in side by side comparisons of the digi with the CRT. I could never get my wife to see the difference try as hard as I might. I think in your "doesn't seem to bother most people" most is not defined as 51% but more like 99+%. |
It may be. I guess it is right up there with rainbows. |
I'd argue the rainbows are worse than the motion blur. But yes, they don't bother the vast majority of people.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Mark_A_W
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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I've never seen a DLP rainbow.
But I admit 99.9% of the DLP's I've seen are doing Powerpoint 
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark_A_W wrote: | I've never seen a DLP rainbow.
But I admit 99.9% of the DLP's I've seen are doing Powerpoint |
I have a DLP in the theater now with a 5x wheel and I occassionally see them, but it has to be a movie like Dark City or something. I don't see them on most movies and even when I see them I only see a couple times in a movie.
Interestingly, I see them less now then when I first got the projector. I consider it a very small price to pay for the "pop" of the DLP's high ANSI CR.
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Dave
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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People who don't see rainbows are fortunate. DLPs are a good answer for them.
For me, I've never seen a DLP I could stand to watch long-term -- and that includes yours, Dave.  Watching something like Ice Age it's no problem, but any dark scenes with moving bright areas show lots of inappropriate color. It's kind of the visual equivalent of ticks & pops on a vinyl album -- very distracting.
I'm hoping the LED projectors will cycle the lasers fast enough that even I won't see the rainbows.
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