CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

[mhalsan]

I spent the weekend fighting with nvidia's 3D Vision kit. Anyone interested in this should be aware that nvidia's drivers are having MAJOR sync issues between the glasses and the screen refresh, which causes a loss of the 3D effect and serious ghosting on the top or bottom quarter of the screen. There are many users with this same symptom reporting on the nvidia forum, and this isn't limited to CRTs. Flat-panel displays aren't syncing right either. It is highly likely that a sync adjustment on their 3D driver would solve this, however their current driver does not offer any such adjustment. I'll edit this if nvidia comes up with a solution. AT this point, they are aware of the issue and are working on it.

I'm using a 9500LC, Frankenyoke II, Mikrons, HFQ900s, in a 100% black room. As far as the projector's capability is concerned- 3D does work. At 1920x1080, refresh rates of 85 or 100Hz, the 3D effect is very good- 72Hz caused noticeable flicker. With the exception of the sync bug noted above, the issue of phosphor lag causing ghosting wasn't noticeable. Brightness is compromised, but not nearly as much as I would have expected. I have the white level at 70, which is my sweet spot between brightness and starting to lose focus. Mathematically, there is some loss of resolution due to the higher refresh rate, but more disturbing is a slight loss of focus ability at the sides of the raster. Even after re-doing astig and RGB focus, this issue gets severe at 120Hz- scanline height at the raster edges was three times thicker than it should have been. At 100Hz, this problem was minimal, but still noticeable on a high-res crosshatch.

I'm running a core2quad extreme, with a pair of 8800 ultras in SLI. There's a moderate drop in framerate during gameplay. Nvidia has some sample 3D movies available on their website, which look great. I tried a field-sequential copy of Transitions- this was disappointing, mainly due to the poor resolution of the source.

There are a couple posts on this forum noting how we could use a pair of CRT projectors to do polarized 3D, and I agree that that would be the best way. In order to keep the brightness and resolution needed for a good 3D picture, while keeping the picture quality of a CRT projector, I would need another 9500LC with the mods, a silver screen and polarizing filters/glasses. We wouldn't have problems with bandwidth, focus or brightness. (Convergence might be more of a challenge) This is all available now: IZ3D sells a driver that provides left/right video outputs, and berezin.com has the filters and glasses. About $12000 ought to do it. Ouch. I'll start looking for coins behind my clothes dryer.

Thanks, Mark

[Mark_A_W]

Mark, have you tried an interlaced res?

96i or even 144i?


This may get rid of the 72hz flicker.

I'm not sure if the interlacing will cause any issues.

[mhalsan]

Still working on that..............Win7 and nvidia's driver don't make it easy to change video timings. Everything seems coded to respond only to the monitor's EDID, which of course the RGBHV input doesn't have.

I'm working with Rivatuner to see if this can be improved.

EDIT: Don't waste your time. Alter the monitor.inf file instead to whatever resolution/refresh you need.

Thanks, Mark

[Mark_A_W]

Load a custom monitor driver - here's one for an XG 110, but it's easy to change the name and max scanrate (the 110 down near the bottom).

[mhalsan]

The best one I've found is davemon.inf, or davemon64.inf, available over at the nvidia 3D forums. It still isn't a perfect fix, but with it and Rivatuner I have been able to at least get my custom resolutions back. If I try to edit the resolution's video timings, it's no go- the error message is "resolution already exists."

Thanks, Mark

[JohnHWman]

[Alan Head]

I have posted a thread about the potential of blu ray 3D playback via CRT projectors over on avforums as I am UK based. Incova had spotted my post and suggested I take a look at this thread.

Here's what I posted :-

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With the revival of 3D at the cinema I thought I would hook up the old HTPC and see if I could get it working with EDimensional 3D shutter glasses and Stereoscopic player software.

I tried this a few years ago and wondered if it was worth pursuing now.

I have an Nvidia 6600GT video card in the HTPC and have it running at 1440 x 960 at 96Hz. This suits the couple of 3D NTSC DVD's that I own. The system works fairly well although I suspect I may be getting a little ghosting due to phosphor decay not being quite quick enough.

Biggest drawbacks at present are that the available DVD movies are rather limited and the light output is much reduced over watching a conventional DVD without the glasses.

I am still not convinced that this 3D movie stuff is going to catch on at home.

I would like to try a system that is capable of running without shutter glasses. This would involve putting a zscreen that used circular polarisation in front of the CRT's and then using the passive 3D glasses that I bought to watch Avatar at the cinema.

The next step is for 3D Blu ray playback. Everything I have read so far suggests that 120Hz refresh rate is required for 3D movie playback. My G90 projector does not have anything like enough bandwidth to handle this signal. However I am sure I can achieve a slightly compromised resolution at 96Hz. This should allow 48Hz (each frame displayed twice) per eye, which for film based material should be adequate.

I am sure I could build a PC capable of generating the images but I need to get the Zscreen to sync. I believe Barco used to make such a zscreen but I am not sure how it synced to the signal.

I see a market for the thousands of projector owners out there to provide a 96Hz zscreen system for 3D playback. If the product was cheap enough we crt owners could have 3 linked together or 1 big zscreen like Barco used to do. In this day and age I would suspect an dvi or hdmi passthrough system could be used to get the sync correct.

Am I just dreaming or is any of this feesible ?

Anyone know where I can get hold of an old Barco zscreen to experiment with ?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As way of an update:-


I have tried 1920 x 1080i at 96Hz but could not get it to work. I suspect this is likely to be an issue with stereoscopic player (now using Nvidias version) being unable to handle an interlaced signal. Surprisingly the G90 will happily lock on to a 1920 x 1080p signal at 96 Hz ! I realise that it will not be able to fully resolve that resolution but dvd sourced material looks pretty much the same as it does at 960p


Alan

[Sparky015]

Not sure if it's a zscreen, but there is a Barco 3D table on eBay for $2500....

[jradwanski]

Just so you guys are aware there is some trickery going on with 3d bluray as a for instance you need a duallink dvi cable to do 3d at 1680x1050 at 120hz this is a pixel click of 243 mhz a standard single link dvi or hdmi cable is only capable of 160mhz pixel clock max give or take a dual link hdmi cable is a completely different connector all together to do 1080p at 120 hz is way more than a standard hdmi cable is capable of. they are doing 1080p but only 1080i per eye at in order to fit within the bandwith and multiplying the refresh rate to work with the shutter glasses otherwise current 3d hardware that accepts hdmi1.3 would not be upgradeable to 3d ie mitsubishi 3d ready dlp rptvs. they have a firmware update on the 3d vision cd to work and will be the same for 3d blu ray

[mhalsan]

I tried the Nvidia 3DVision with my 9500, and it didn't work very well........flicker, ghosting due to phosphor lag, and sync problems.

Dual projectors with a "silver" screen and passive polarization should work, I hope to have this up and running in a few months. At this point I have enough spare parts for a second 9500. The non-depolarizing screen, being rather pricey, is the holdup.

I think the only way to play 3D Blu Ray on something like this is with a PC with two videocards, both HDMI/HDCP, and a driver like IZ3D, which has stated planned compatibility with a setup like this. 3D gaming with dual projectors is already well established.

Sounds good so far, I'll believe it when I see it work.

EDIT: Harkness has my screen order, but demand is high for the Spectral 3D surface. My screen won't ship until Sept. 17th. Everything else is ready- dual projectors, 3D drivers..............now for a 3 month wait................it's here! Now to install it.

Thanks, Mark.

[scir16v]

It seems to me inorder to do 3d correctly with CRT, you would need 2 CRT projectors for a "stack". Aside from that a processor that will split the frames and send one projector the even frames, and the other projector the odd frames. Does that sound like a feasible solution????

[mhalsan]

My understanding of 3D Blu-ray is that the video is stored on the disc as over/under, in a 2K by 2K frame, which is why the higher capacity of HDMI 1.4 is required for a single-link connection. The new standard is advertised as being "display agnostic," which implies an amount of flexibility in the user's 3D solution.

I did find this device, however it uses HD-SDI instead of HDMI for "dual output."
http://www.doremilabs.com/appnotes/Dimension%203D%20for%203D%20format%20conversion.pdf

Real-D makes some neat converters, but not the one we would need.
http://www.reald.com/Content/PODS.aspx

In the absence of a standalone 3D format converter, we're back to using a PC. This has the advantage of existing 3D drivers, as well as other software that can ease compatibility between the Blu-Ray standard and various display technologies.

Thanks, Mark

[jontag]

Here's what I have used for 3d with my Marquee 8500 with pretty good results: I have a control box orig made for std tv orig I-O systems but still here: http://www.ultimate3dheaven.com/3dshthfortwo.html

Doesn't have the add to cart but the battery powered and wireless http://www.ultimate3dheaven.com/3dsyst1.html should be the same.

Put a T on the vert BNC conector and a BNC to RCA adaptor and run that to the control box. shutters @ anything above 85hz @ most resolutions and best with no ghosting at @ 2048x1538 85Hz interlaced. I'm think it has something to do with the timing details concerning sync width for the ghosting. Any software/driver capable of page flipping to the v-sync will work.

Xp was alot easier for setting/altering refresh but now mainly run 7 x64. Used Powerstrip to write a monitor driver for 7 which makes it easier to make custom rez and refresh.

Wish I knew alot more about monitor timing and such... pretty sure should be able to reduce or eliminate ghosting @ 1080p 110Hz by tweaking the various settings....

[mhalsan]

The only issue with this would be getting vertical sync if we're using an HDMI source. Getting a vertical sync signal from somewhere inside the projector is certainly possible, but I'm not qualified to say for sure.

I tried Nvidia's 3DVision kit last February, with disappointing results. The glasses were slightly out of sync, and it was unwatchable at any refresh rate. I returned the kit after a couple weeks. BUT, the possibilities were fascinating!

I've got my second 9500 assembled from a pile of spare parts, mounted and set up. Polarizing filters were a lot less expensive that I thought, and matching glasses aren't bad either. All I need is a non-depolarizing screen- and this can't be skimped on. Still, I hope to have this done in a month or two.....

The PC gaming scene is moving to 3D with a lot of confidence; we'll see if 3D Blu Ray goes anywhere. People I know locally are interested in 3D- right up to where they find out their new flat screen and late-model player won't work with it. It's just like popping a balloon!

Thanks, Mark

[CasetheCorvetteman]

[Mark_A_W]

I have solar on my roof (1kW). Almost pays the extra $$$ for the Green power. I'd need about 7kW to cover my usage completely.



Despite it's rating, my XG uses a measured 500w for black and 600w for white. It's really a 500w heater that happens to throw out some light.

1000 to 1200w + audio (~300w) = 1500w just to watch a movie...and movies last for 2 hours. That's a lot of power. A kettle is higher, but it's only for a few minutes.





It's not about the money. Electricity should cost $170 c per kWH, not 17.


Coincidentally I'm watching "The Human Power Station" while I type this....80 people riding exercise bike generators to power a household..puts it in perspective.


(BTW my powerpoint is 240v. 230v is intended for the future, but it's 240v for now.)

[CasetheCorvetteman]

No mate, look up AS 3000:2007 Wiring Rules and see what it says, it is nominated 230/400 volts in Australia, not 240, and has been 230v since AS 3000:2007 took effect as the required minimum standard, however the variance of +10% or -6% of that figure meaning that 240 is still within spec. Prior to the 3000:2007 taking effect it was indeed nominated 240/415 volts by the AS 3000:2000 Wiring Rules. Any licenced electrician in Australia will ( or certainly should ) have that book.

1kW is not a solar system, that is a kid's toy!! I hope you didnt have to pay for that!! How much do you need down there before you get paid the bonus i heard some people can get? We dont get that in QLD yet, but we do get paid 52 cents a kWh for all electricity exported to the grid, which in my case is all of it.

But if its not about the money, and i didnt think it would be, what is it about? Time of setup?

P.S. Dont spose you have a custom monitor EDID over ride file there to suit a 9PG do ya?

Cheers mate

[CasetheCorvetteman]

Ive got an electronic version of AS 3000:2007 here, ive dug up the info for ya:

This book:
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a185/Casethecorvetteman/wiringrulescover.jpg

Page 50, clause 1.6.2 part (c)
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a185/Casethecorvetteman/page50AS3000.jpg

[Mark_A_W]

Whatever. It's 240 until they actually change it. Just measured it, 241 volts.


And it's not about the projector at all. It's about power usage. A blend, or a triple stack, is just nuts.


My toy solar system generates 3kW/h per day on average over the year. Enough gets exported to make me about $70 per quarter (as well as saving the 3kW/h from the bill). We then use about 8- 10kW/h from the grid. Apparently this is about half of the average household, which boggles my mind.


It cost me A$1300. Less than my 68cm tele did.




Monitor driver attached.


But you will need to override EDID in your display drivers as well.

[CasetheCorvetteman]

Cheers for that file mate, appreciate that!! I had to create one for this monitor im using at present, as you probably know with Windows 7 and nVidia it wont allow you to exceed what the EDID reports, and this 1080p display reported a max res of 1280x768. I did all the changes back when i did that, and its been fine since.

Ill send you a PM