CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

Elaine Benes · Joined: 25 Apr 2006 Posts: 1416

I apologize for the dramatic way I presented the info, no offense intended, but I wanted everyone to take note. I think it says a LOT more about the precarious state of CRT sales when the BUYER of a BNIB projector for under $800. reneges on an ebay auction, even taking the hit of paying the listing fees to get out of buying a BNIB Marquee...

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:33 am Post subject:

OK, thinking some more....(always a dangerous thing!)

I've got two windows open to this thread so I can respond to a bunch of stuff in order. Going from the top...

Ben- since I get almost every type of customer, as I stated before, I still get people inquiring about CRT for the first time. I'd have my last two Sony 12XX sold if I could find the time to throw the two last sets of tubes into them.. Smile

So yes, there are still first time CRTers looking at $100-400 ES focusing sets. With the track records of some, no reason they can't last another 5 years let's say. I've STILL got people emailing me that I sold sets to 10 years ago failing for the first time. Some people hardly used them, but lots of people watch them regularly, and have put 5000+ hours on a set. A quick PC board repair, and they are running again.

Long ago, I discounted ES focusing repairs due to the dropping costs of sets, and sometimes I'll just sell boards outright. I have enough Barco 800 boards here to choke a horse, less so for Sony 12XX, in fact I had to buy a LV power supply recently for a 1272 as I ran out.

Gary- I did think of offering a two price structure system for my sets. One with a full warranty and tech support, and one simply being a no DOA warranty with zero support. Say, 25% off for no warranty? That might also scare people away.. 'gee, these must need a lot of work and tech support, maybe I should buy a digital?'

NO question that my tech support and warranty allowed me to have increased pricing. Ditto for guys like Terry and Tim, in fact I think both were on par or higher than I was up to a year or so ago. Haven't heard from Terry in a couple of months, I talk to Tim weekly.

Wan- that's what I don't want, is to get a bad reputation if I sell a set as is. While I still do several component upgrades to sets that I sell, if I blow the sets out, I don't think I'd sit there and do 3 hours of board work to get $150. In that case, I'm better off parting out the set. People are still looking for good tubes, I sold all those SD 187s that I got new in the box over the summer, and did really well on those, considering I kept all the EM focusing tubes in that lot. They went into 8" EM focusing sets, I think I had a total of 4 complete sets of tubes. So, I can part out even a Sony 1031 for say $100 over time, with far less risk of board or tube damage over shipping a whole set. Ditto for almost any other set out there. The parts are worth more than the whole.

I think I've done well overall with my reputation. It's not perfect, but I think I have well under 10 really pissed off customers over the 1500 sets I've sold over the last 10 years. I think that's about right as to the number that I've sold. Out of those that I can recall, I think two were solely my fault, two were customer abuse of the set as admitted on the avsforum, and at least one was a really anal retentive guy that insisted on new performance out of rebuilt tubes, even though he turned down the offer to put in new original tubes.

dturco- not a true statement (about needing 1080p) for first time CRTers. At least once a week I explain to people that they can't see the difference between 1080i and 1080i from 12' away. Ditto for 1080p/24. I don' t think I've had a single customer ever that questioned if the set would do 24p. That's a requirement for the tweakers that have no problem spending $1000 on a scaler to do that... and they'd most likely keep that scaler to tweak a digital if they ever got one.

I still get people coming to me that are all bent out of shape about digital disposability. they want something that works when they turn it on, and something that can be repaired if it fails.

drice- I had several offers to do that when CRTs were booming, but ultimately only one guy in Edmonton ended up selling about 20 low end CRTs to sports bars. Everyone else had wild ideas about selling sets, but never came through. With my stock, either I strip the sets for parts or I sell them whole at dirt cheap prices.

I can't really comment on the eBay sale of the longbow. Based on what I'm paying on average, it's lower than what that longbow went for. Even though the seller seemed legit, he really hurt himself by not putting an actual pix of the machine up. I didn't see the ad before it closed, but wouldn't have paid the $700 without confirmation of the set actually existing. Selling sets on eBay has always been far and few between. I only use eBay to lure customers to email me for the FAQ or to ask questions, then I link them to the site. My mailer sells more projectors than eBay ever has for me.

As for my warranty, it's been 90 days on the chassis, 1 year on any new tube for a long time, maybe 5 years. For corporate, I usually put a 1 year on the whole set. I recently had an issue where I had a $20K sale about 3 years ago to Europe for three 9" sets, with all 9 tubes being green (!). I also extended the CRT wiring by 3' so each tube could be mounted separately. The customer emailed me recently about all sorts of problems ever since they had the sets. Customer wasn't too techy smart, so I contacted one of the Eurpoean techs who did a 2 day service call. I think all I had to send was one neckboard, which I did at no charge, and the tech emailed me, saying it was all setup issues. The customer was happy, and since I made killer coin on the sale 3 years ago, I had no issues doing a small freebie. End result: super happy customer.

Person99 (Dave): I agree with most of what you said (!!) Smile

With the exception of a couple of things:

I have one website that everyone sees. I can't really do a split pricing thing between consumer and pro on the same machine. I mean, I suppose I could, but I don't think it would fly. Now if I approached it as a 'warranty is XX price', that might work.

Forum- I can't see the high end pros posting here. By that I mean the flight simulator guys, someone that works at Barco, etc. Heck, the Moome and Fury products are more 'professional' than a used projector, and I think the freeflowing style of the website has even helped them instead of hindering. I link people to the forum all the time, esp now that I'm getting digital inquiries, and MacGuyver has stepped up to the plate. Smile

THat part I don't think I'll change. I can't put the time into splitting the site into pro and consumer HT at this point, why bother? Ditto for the forum. I see why you suggested it though. Thing is, I think any used device, be it cars or computers or CRT is approached differently than say an audiophile or a Porsche forum. Look at the verbage spewed over on the $>20K avs forum. I think the only reason I'm tolerated there is because from a techy point, I know what I'm talking about. Otherwise they would have kicked this jeans and T shirt guy out a long time ago. Hah!

As for getting more into other areas of HT, nah, that's not my bag. I'll do pro audio before I get into full HT systems. That's what the other site will be..once I have some time to set the site up. Probably over Xmas.

I think the only way to get the mystique back into CRT is to make radical changes here. Blow off people like Nashou that knows more about Marquee mods than I ever will, blow off the buy/sell section where people sell stuff for less than I do.. and I'll alienate 1/2 the forum members. Nah, again, I can see your point, and had I implemented stronger rules in the beginning, then maybe I could have run with it, but at this point I like all the guys here, and the odd sale I might lose to someone selling a part here is more than made up for by the fact that this is probably the biggest CRT site out there. I never thought that Kal and I would get to that level. Kudos to Kal once again. Now, when the audio side takes off, I've got some specific ideas for that, which hopefully won't be copied. Time will tell.

The 'mandatory' HDMI input is a good idea though. I'll be sending an email to the Fury people.. Wink

Again, not all people need/want the Fury, might already have one, but at this point I keep at least one here, and if I sell it, I order another one right away.

The thing is, we'll see in about 2 months where things are at. This year was very strange indeed for sales. From Aug to Dec 2008, things were dead, more so than this year. I was really struggling this time last year, and then in Jan 2009 Barco announced that they were out of CRT forever. I thought that really was the last nail in the coffin.

To my surprise, the opposite happened. Sales and inquiries went insane mid January, and to all of my above customer types, and all makes and models of sets. I'd say the first 7 months of the year were higher than any of the previous 3-4 years.

Then, Aug 1, sales died. They picked up a bit in the last 2 weeks, I've sold two 9" sets (one Runco DTV 1200 and one Marquee 9500 Ultra) so I can now coast until Jan or so, so if this year repeats itself in 2010, I'll be fine. I can't expect things to pick up, so I'll delve into sound as mentioned before. Rest assured, I won't ever bail on CRT though.

digitalayon · Joined: 02 Mar 2009 Posts: 921

Curt,

short story: I worked for a computer store chain here in Utah that was owned by 1 person. I was a technician that would work on warranty pc's all day. The PC's were expensive but it came with free service for the life of the PC. Well pretty soon we were so good at fixing them that they didn't need to buy a newer PC. We literally had mounds of warranty computers and no sales to support the repair department. Needless to say the company closed all 8 stores and the owner went crazy. If the products you sell still have value, market them to the people who buy them. Most people in here probably don't come here to by a CRT. They want help getting theirs going and fixing their issues(like me). I think you should start at the service level and decide from there how much it eats into your profit VS. selling a machine at a cheaper price. Value is still value. You might drop warranty support unless the price goes higher for a set. If I am getting a redone 26,000 dollar set for 1 grand, I should expect the warranty to be almost non-exhistant. If I buy a car that is 8 years old and has 500 miles on it and there isn't a scratch on it and looks in new condition and is being sold for 2,000 dollars, do I expect a warranty?....no....it is still 8 years old. When you sell a set, Just make sure it is not DOA and offer no warranty if the unit sells for a cheap price. I would also sell the units on a different site. Dedicate the site to selling the sets and marketing them with the better picture philosophy VS. a justification of why you should choose a CRT. Put real pictures on it and show the units themselves and not a general picture.

draganm · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 8990 Location: Colorado

I like the people here but could give a rat's "you know what" about their opinion on HT or CRT. I mean that in the best possible way too. Wink

Curt making decisions like this in the middle of the worst recession in 20 years and right before X-mas will not help you make a good decision. CRT is still a cool hobby and there's some people out there who are interested in it. Not many but they are there

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:53 am Post subject:

Nah, I'm not desperate nor will I make a rash decision. As I said, it was far worse last year and I weathered it out, then things went nuts in January.

I just wanted some ideas, and I always know I can count on people here to give that.

So thanks, if I think of something brilliant, I'll post it.

Nashou66 · Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 16171 Location: West Seneca NY

Curt all I can say is you and this Forum Rock!! I hope the small contributions My bellow sales helps. I just sold two sets today and am officially in the green!! Smile

If I sell 5 more sets the money i made will have to go back for another run of 100 .

But this forum has given me fun,frustration and friends .

Keep it going as long as you can!!

Athanasios

**AnalogRocks** · Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:13 am Post subject:

huggy · Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:21 am Post subject:

Curt
Why not just add the option of extended warranty period (labor only)for X amount of dollars ?

eg: 1 year = 250
2 years = 350

Just like you have to purchase an extended warranty on nearly all electronics these days,which we never complain about.I can't see why anyone would have a problem bitching about a set that broke if they were too tight to pay for warranty.
This way you could reduce the cost of units and sell them off and have more units out there.

Dave

km987654 · Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:13 am Post subject:

How many of your customers are not in north America? You would have the best CRT business anywhere in the world but do you really take advantage of that? Perhaps a shrinking business in the US and Canada may not be a shrinking business world wide.

I would probably by a 1 customer but I am really forced into that situation by cost including exchange rate and transport. I would really love a Barco 909 but add the former costs to the price of the PJ and its a killer.

Perhaps you could have agents that you ship container loads of PJs to each market thereby reducing the transport costs and perhaps if there is enough margin you might be able to account for the exchange rate.

Just thoughts.

stefuel · Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:24 am Post subject:

If it were me, I'd blow out most of the low end sets, part out the rest. I said in a earlier thread that I guessed you were making more money on parts and service for the projectors you've already sold than the sale of refurbed projectors but only you know that for sure. I would not buy any more low end sets and only take one in trade if a customer is upgrading to a high end set and only if the customer pays the shipping. I love CRT projectors but I think your Cash Cow is gradually running out of milk and it won't be long before this is just a second job for you. You your self has said many times that digital is a throw-away technology and that may be so but they along with the lamps are getting better and cheaper all the time. Right now I could buy a damn nice digital for the price of a new set of 9" tubes. The projector those tubes would be going in is now almost 14 years old. I guess that speaks for AmPro's reliability. I'm going to really have to think hard about dumping about $3,500-4,000 in new tubes in a 14 year old set. The thought of starting over with a newer to me but still older set does not sit well with me. To many of the sets bouncing around now have been in the hands of others who have tried their hands at modding and had less then stellar luck. Do I wish to get involved in that? Hell no.

mp20748 · Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:34 pm Post subject:

I have to agree with Dave on most of what he's posted, with some things I've already shared with Curt.

Your main concern at this point should be the industrial/commercial customer. They're out there everywhere needing what you have to offer. Numbers 1, 2 and 3 really has to seek you out, and for the most part are already familiar with you and have been doing business with you already. But as time has gone by, 1,2,and 3's have been dwindling and sometime soon, won't be able to keep things going for you.

OTOH - The commercial/Industrial customer needs to know that you exist and that you can offer them a very valuable and needed service in keeping the many CRT and other electronic repairs functioning properly for the many more years they have to stay with their present systems.

However, in order to get and keep those customers, you'll need to either start a second website that deals with that customer specifically, or make some serious changes to this site, which would have to also show what you'll want to offer to that type of customer.

You're well situated (technical experience, tools, parts, etc) to do this caliber of work. You also have a US address that could get you a substantial amount of US business. But in order for this to happen the way it would need to from the industry that you'll want to really go after, you'll need to have a clean website that basically spells out what service you'll be offering, to include in that same website, it would have to reflect the character and culture of the customer that you'll be after.

At present, this site is perfect for the average Joe HT owner, that gets off work pops a brew and feels relaxed enough to post whatever he feels is appropriate on his favorite HT forum. The problem here is, the average Joe is not going to be the main source of income in the near future. And to have the average Joe on a forum that's also connected to your MAIN website, it does not do well for the culture of customer you'll need to go after and make your target group.

The forums are great, but there's just too many non professional discussions going on to be able to have your site also listed in a folder that your business contact would feel comfortable to discuss in a procurement meeting with the rest of their agency.

Over the years, I've wondered why AVS did not allow certain discussions - now I know.

I've also visited or have membership in a lot of other forums, that deals with things from cars to health issues. What I've noticed with all of them, is that there's never a place where there's also discussions on Sex, drugs, politics.

You have great potential to do very well in what you're really good at, but in order to make that happen, you're going to have to leave some things behind.

TheVerge · Joined: 19 Jul 2009 Posts: 928

I don't know if lowering the price of the 7 and 8 inch sets will help that much, unless you make a huge cut on them, like literally 50% off or so.

Living in BFE Arkansas, it's gonna cost me 500 in shipping just to get a set, so the difference in $1000 and $750 is quite negligible to people that aren't local. Might as well leave the prices the same, you know...

Sparky015 · Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:18 pm Post subject:

Some really great points. I just have to say from a marketing standpoint, that this forum attached to your website is marketing genius. You get instant access to the pulse of your market.

As a solid customer 1, I would say that I picked up an 8500 for cheap and have been fixing it up for 1080p and did not buy from you, only because I couldn't afford your prices for an 8" machine. I would love a nice 9" (I'm plugging my brother-in-law who designs flight simulators for the military to dive into their Barco 909 stock fo me, but with no luck so far), but I definitely can't afford a 9-incher price.

I would also agree that not everyone is looking for 1080p. Not everyone is twitching if they don't break out their hubble calibrator once a week Very Happy

I had a Marquee 8000 that I sold to a local CRTer here in Ohio for $500 because he wanted an 8 incher that was capable of 720p with good tubes. They are out there, but the price has to be right. 8 inch CRT technology is now for those HT hobbiests who can't afford digital. Yes, digitals don't have as a good of a picture of a CRT, but for the average enthusiest, it's perfect. Like I said, not everyone has the twitch to tweak and analyze a picture. With that said, I would do a little more of a deep dive and see if you can't segment your customer base further. That will lead you to see if your pricing is where it needs to be.

This thread at least got you solid customer feedback from your die hard CRT group, probably both high end 9 incher and low end 8 incher who can't afford a 9 incher.

Paul

Spanky Ham · Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 5643 Location: Comedy Central

Some very good ideas and I was going to throw out one, but MP has thrown a curve ball. I was going to say that you should just list the 7" and 8" pjs for sale wherever you find them. You could put them on ebay and craigslist. You could charge a finders fee and offer a service contract that Dave was talking about. In this way, you eliminate the shipping charges and can get people into CRTs on the cheap. Dave's idea of a service contract is probably your best bet.

Now MP had to go and open his mouth. Smile

Everything Mike said is probably your best course of action. You might want to ask around with Mike and other commercial/industrial clients and see what they are looking for. The only thing I differ with is the website. I would say leave this one alone and start a new website just for this market. Industrialcrt.com or commercialcrt.com should be fine. Kal could probably pop one out in a couple of hours. It isn't like VDC or Thomson have extravagant websites.

draganm · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 8990 Location: Colorado

Person99 · Joined: 09 Mar 2006 Posts: 4899 Location: Flower Mound, TX

Spanky Ham · Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 5643 Location: Comedy Central

macgyver655 · Joined: 22 Aug 2007 Posts: 8508

Sell it all and get a 1-900 number for component level repair...... Laughing

You wont know what to do with all that cash...

Do they still have 1-900 numbers........ Laughing

Then you can become a chef and just have one of those headsets for tech support..... Laughing

stefuel · Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 11:12 am Post subject:

Mike says there's still a commercial market for CRT. Perhaps but the only one I can think of is dome projection that a digital alone can't do but it can however do it with warp technology digitally in processing.
If there were still a market for "new" CRT then why has everyone but VDC dropped it?
No offense to Curt but a big corp is not going to put all their marbles in a one man show bag. It would be viewed as being just to risky. They might come to him as a last ditch effort to keep existing equipment running and I don't think a new website is needed for that.

mp20748 · Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:09 pm Post subject: