| Author |
Message |
Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| CIR Engineering wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: | I dont need to run the astig as I can get the dots nice and round with the CPC magnets, and the astig coils are built into the focus coils. The squiggles don't bother me as much, its the jail bars that are very noticeable on screen. And that has not gone away with any testing and swapping and changing. I could try the LVPS and HVPS but I don't see how it could be those. Only other thing is the way they route the wires? On theses there all tucked nicely away between everything On all other PJ's there just everywhere. But even that might not be it, I have a different HDM and those wires are just hanging.
Athanasios |
You may be onto something here with the wire routing. I have seen this exact same looking distortion on Mits RPCRT's and it is caused by the position of the mini-coax cables... On the Mits sets, moving wires around can make the issue worse or better.
craigr |
Craig, do you mean the lighter and darker jail bars or the vertical squiggle lines that run horizontally?
Yes Ani they use the little thin wires with mini RCA's.
I have one cable i made to test, i could put that on a tube and se if it helps that tube.
But the vertical squiggles go away to almost not noticeable looking at the tube face if i disconnect just one astig connector, it doesn't matter which one.
Athansios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Nashou66 wrote: |
Close up of distortions, these have always been here since I got the longbows.
Athanasios |
First, we need to establish that I'm the noise expert 'round here..
Especially when dealing with the Marquee...
You have two different noises in that image. One is coming from the CLM. the other from the DC rails.
The vertical lines, are coming from the CLM's internal generator. It's actually in the video chain at all times, so it can put whatever noise that's floating around on the CLM into the chain. And it's most likely increased from the Bandwidth peaking mod, which is doing exactly what it's supposed to do (increase bandwidth), but when it does what it does, it also widens the window to noise into the video chain.
So that circuit 'could' enhance this problem... but considering that it's a modification to improve the performance of the projector for those who're not so concerned with minor noise, or will never notice the noise. it's really a great and powerful modification for something that was limited before the mod. And it's also possible that the noise would still be there even when using an original stock VIM that does not have the peaking circuit. Either way, the VIM is picking up noise from other areas of the projector.
To better understand what is going on, you'll have to except that there's a lot of noise floating around in a Marquee. And the higher the bandwidth it is capable of, the more noise you'll see - unless, you find a way to filter/decouple the noise from the video chain.
The squiggly lines are almost always inherent of a higher (than original stock) bandwidth video chain.
If you put in a regular version VIM, the squiggly lines should go away. A few cap upgrades on the CLM should lower the line noise.
I'll see if I can bring up a full green pattern similar to what you're showing in that image. My 02 VIM is higher bandwidth and well decoupled, so let's see what happens....
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks for the input mike but, It might be some of what you said but i have doubts.
1) | Quote: | | The squiggly lines are almost always inherent of a higher (than original stock) bandwidth video chain. |
Then why does it go away when I remove any of the astig coil connectors?
2) the vertical lines or bars, this might be from the CLM but i have a feeling it might be something else, I used a non peaking VIm, still there and also used another CLM with the filters that you posted awhile ago on your 02p vim success
thread over on AVS, its the one in my marquee thread. also that CLM was heavily modified for each chip with added capacitors of each rail or each chip. I think its a nice CLM the bars were still there.
New findings, After what Craig said about routing i did some moving of the HDM cables to move them around.
the bars on the red tube changed. The middle brighter one's that show up in the pic on the green( all tubes looked very similar with maybe varying size fluctuations of the bars) now are the same width as the lighter ones not as visibl;e but still there. muting green and blue and ramping contrast on the screen i can't see it as much, i really had to look.
So i connected the astig board(red) and the squiggle came back, this time i removed the blue astig and all squiggles gone bars still there as before for the red. Green and Blue still look like the pics of the green bars.
then I looked at the cables coming out of the back heat sink boards. on all marquees from before they were all separated. These are braided tightly together. I have a feeling that its that. I moved some out away from the mother board , they were tucked right under the metal cages near each connector for the HDM and FGM. the bars diminished in brightness just a bit. I'm hoping if I un braid the cables the bars will go away. I figure the CVA cables carry the signals for size and the HDM does the phase id assume. This is why the bars expanded and shrunk when size was adjusted but not phase, and if all the astig focus, and Vertical deflection wires are wrapped up with the CVA wires the EMI and cross talk through the wires might be causing this. Not sure till i start taking it all apart. Not feeling well now so not sure when i'll try it.
But I do know from my other marquee's i never saw any of this, i also put the new Vim into the older marquee to see how well it resolved compared to the 03p vim i had. This was before I even had one of the Longbows hooked up.
And that Vim did not exhibit any bars or squiggles in my 8500.
So you might be right Mike but I think EMI airborne noise is just as bad or worse than noise running through PCB's.
I think the HV wires create the most and i want to do what HK-Steve did!! he is the noise master of all types!!
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
|
Well. I'm sure you'll get to the bother of it.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tse
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 1014
Location: Sweatbucket, Fl.
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
Athanasios,
The stig amp is prone to oscillate. I have seen it many times. Any time you can move wires around and see changes in weird stuff it usually means something is oscillating at a fairly high frequency. Maybe 100 or 200MHz. Generally only one of the stig amps is the problem but it's output gets on everything so it is hard to tell which one is the culprit. Unplug all of the outputs and reconnect, one color at a time, to try to find which color ia causing the rucus. Once you find which color it is you have to determine if it is the "X" amp or the "Y" amp. Maybe it is just easier to change the amp out.
I think Mike is right. There are two noises there. I'm not sure what the bigger, wider noise bars are from. Some careful probing around with the scope should help to narrow it down.
Sorry. I know that is not much help.
Scott
_________________
"Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we would soon want bread."
Thomas Jefferson
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
I thank you both for your help. Scott, but both PJ's showing the same oscillation casing those squiggly lines? And they get worse at lower internal frequencies .
I just can't see two Pj's that are basically bran new have bad astig amps somewhere.
Now with the bars , the red bars are all the same in width now but hardly as noticeable.
the blue and green are the same.
Now i just cleaned the HDM contacts and the mother board contacts and the socketed Chips and the main deflection coil wires all with Stabilant22.
Things have gotten better in intensity so ow when i look at both PJ on screen the right untreated PJ shows the bars on the screen easily where the left Pj is not as noticeable.
I'll clean up the rest of the contacts and then untangle or unbraid the CVA,VDM,and Astig wires and see what happens.
I do not doubt there is noise , just where its coming from. If it was one PJ that did it id say something is faulty but both? Not so sure.
I assume scott youd want me to scope the CVA and astig and VDM cables correct? If so what should i be looking for.
And for scoping the video what should I use as a pattern to look at on the scope?
Once again thanks for both your inputs.
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
Ok, I unraveled the CVA, astig and VDM wires from eac other and let them hang, i left the blue astig disconnected. The bars are gone from all colors!!!
So I connected the Astig blue again and the distortions came back. I did the internal frequencies and I was wrong. At lower frequencies its not there. As I go higher they come back and the highest is just massive squiggles.
Ok So can I pull the astig cable off while the PJ is running or should I power off each time?
I'm going to unravel the green and red now.
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
Just did the astig cable testing and found that the red does not cause it , but Green and Blue do. So if I leave the blue astig off no squiggles. Blue focus is not as critical and usually you need to defocus blue for proper greyscale.
So for now I think I figured it out. Some time when i have a chance I'll swap out the SAB with one of the other ones I have.
Thanks guys.
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
benareeno
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1614
Location: ottawa, canada
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
usually red is driven less than the other 2...could it be related to red drive? Raise it and see if introduces the noise?
Also..is this noise only worrisome on test patterns? Too many people waste too much time looking at test patterns...they can reveal things that just aren't an issue when you switch to video content.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
hi ben, this is on all tubes, and visible on real video content. but looks like the bars that was more of a problem for me have gone. i have to do the other long bow also, but this time with no Stabilant22. I'll just unravel the braided sets of wires and see what it does. This way i can be sure that it was the only cause and not bad connections.
But I am sure the squiggles will remain. I did not test the right Longbow with removing one connector yet on the astig. if the same connectors cause an issue then it has to be something else and not the same amps on the boards.
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
Well I got rid of the Squiggles on the one marquee. I thought about what Mike and then Scott said about noise. especially when scott mentioned noise in the 100 MHz range.
So i have a couple of those ferrite beads that you put around power cable. audio cables etc. They are for attenuating 100Mhz noise so i put one on the Blue astig coil cable. First i put in near the coil but remembered the magnetic field. It shifted the blue so i moved it toward the amp side and the squiggles are gone . I tested a few points alone the wire and any where i put it it works as long as its not near the tube. I might buy individual small ferrite beads t put on each wire of the astig or just test one at a time to find out if its the x or y causing it. Then I can go after it on the board level if i get ambitious or I can leave that up to Mike
So it worked so good on the astig I tried it all over . On the CVA it cables it lowered the bars to where i can only see them with contrast at 30 or lower i mean even less now since i unraveled the wires, that did the most. I will see what it does on the PJ i did not unravel, i will put then on the entire bundle to see what happens.
So those little ferrite beads can go a long way!
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
1031
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 657
Location: Finland
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Nashou66 wrote: | Well I got rid of the Squiggles on the one marquee. I thought about what Mike and then Scott said about noise. especially when scott mentioned noise in the 100 MHz range.
So i have a couple of those ferrite beads that you put around power cable. audio cables etc. They are for attenuating 100Mhz noise so i put one on the Blue astig coil cable. First i put in near the coil but remembered the magnetic field. It shifted the blue so i moved it toward the amp side and the squiggles are gone . I tested a few points alone the wire and any where i put it it works as long as its not near the tube. I might buy individual small ferrite beads t put on each wire of the astig or just test one at a time to find out if its the x or y causing it.
Athanasios |
Iīm glat to hear that you have found culprit for that odd behavior. But remember that amp can still oscillate, ferritebead just hides that. You can check that if there is oscillation with scope (just compaire signal outputs with good channel)
_________________
Marquee 9500LC (Frankenyokes / Thomas electric tubes / HD-10L / +many modīs)
DVDO VP-50
New hobby, Rally
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX2Rtpr1njs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZP9FEFXV5c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j065vei6j6s
http://www.facebook.com/pages/JTS-Racing-team/204443719572685
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
AWESOME 
craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| CIR Engineering wrote: | AWESOME
craigr |
Thanks Craig, looks like the moving of wires helped. But the issue is still there for oscillation on the SAB board Like TSE stated. I noticed they use a new chip the EL2245 and its a 100Mhz chip and that seems like the noise getting through.
I am pretty sure i seen a SAB board with the MC3402 chip which is much less. I am at work now so have to look.
Steve and I were talking and He thinks he used the TLE2072 chip there. I have some at home and might try it. But i have to wait for his confirmation. Not sure what bandwidth requirements are needed for the astig adjustment but i don not think its a high bandwidth need, unless its dependent on the refresh rate your running, in my case 72 hz. So then maybe a op amp in that range would do better not allowing the higher frequencies through. Not sure if my line of thinking is correct, i never said i am an EE just a restauranteur
EDIT: Ok just got home and the older boards have the same chip. Maybe Steve was mistaken, have to wait and see.
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tse
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 1014
Location: Sweatbucket, Fl.
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
The stig amp has been a problem child all along. If it was up to me (it isn't) I would have redesigned it years ago. It only has to output a few hundred milliamps and the bandwidth is max a megahertz or so. The idea of placing a ferrite suppresor over the cable is good. That absolutely had to happen with the two piece units where the stig amp is driving the stig coil through the 10' cable. The stig amp was not happy with the long cable and would oscillate like crazy. Those all had to have ferrite beads over the output wire right at the amplifier. The ferrites made for low freqs (look for ones specified at 10MHz) worked the best.
Scott
_________________
"Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we would soon want bread."
Thomas Jefferson
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
| tse wrote: | The stig amp has been a problem child all along. If it was up to me (it isn't) I would have redesigned it years ago. It only has to output a few hundred milliamps and the bandwidth is max a megahertz or so. The idea of placing a ferrite suppresor over the cable is good. That absolutely had to happen with the two piece units where the stig amp is driving the stig coil through the 10' cable. The stig amp was not happy with the long cable and would oscillate like crazy. Those all had to have ferrite beads over the output wire right at the amplifier. The ferrites made for low freqs (look for ones specified at 10MHz) worked the best.
Scott |
If you hang a bit i am uploading a scope video and some pics so all can see, very very interesting to see how much Noise of instability is on that board.
No Ferrite, first pin from right(nearest convergence amp) Red (bottom ) and Green ( Top) channels
Now with ferrite, on any channel i have this on green.
And now with wire double wrapped around ferrite
And the Video, might not play i will also upload to youtube soon
http://gallery.me.com/nashou.66#100182/DSCF1243&bgcolor=black
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
Wow what a difference a couple of ferrite beads make!
_________________
Tech support for nothing
CRT.
HD done right!
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
antorsae
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 297
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
WOW - SO you can use one ferrite bead for all 3 stig cables?
Athanasios - you ROCK!
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
