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psychoacoustic
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:17 pm Post subject: TBI tweets reviewed |
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| WTS wrote: | Well I'm not sure if I'm the first to review these tweeters or not but Curt sent me a pair of the TBI HDSS TWEP51.
These things are small, they're about 1.5" diameter 3/4" deep. The box says the cap crossover is at 3.5k but the paper inside says 2kHz so I'm not sure which one it is.
I suppose what I compared them to isn't exactly fair but it's the only set of high end speakers I have. The drivers in my speakers are all Dynaudio's top end drivers, the tweeter alone are worth over $1k and the mids are close to that. With that said how I went about comparing them was I connected the TBIs to the same connection which power my upper drivers as I have a biamped system. I draped a heavy double folded towel down from the top of the speaker cabinet to cover the tweeter and the upper midrange drivers, then I hung the TBI tweeter just over the top of the cabinet infront of the towel. I then switched back and forth from covered to uncovered - when the main drivers where uncovered the TBIs were covered etc.
Some of the discs I listened to were Chet Atkins/Mark Knopler Neck To Neck, Dire Straits Brothers in Arms, Dave Grusin Migration.
What can I say, for such a small driver it sounded quite remarkable. It never sounded strained at any time and at times the peaks got very loud. But that is the good point, the bad points are they sounded congested/vealed, their sound stage was very narrow, although that could be because they weren't mounted on proper baffle (all my drivers are mounted on a 1" thick lead baffle). They tended to emphasize certain areas and not others along the frq response curve, no freq curve was supplied so I have no idea where the peaks and valleys occur with these tweeters. Also they did seem to be fairly directional. I never listened to them for hours on end but I had the feeling they could get fatiguing. Of course I should mention that there was no doubt a hole created in the full freq response when I covered up my drivers to use the TBIs, how big it was I don't know as I don't know if the TBIs crossed over at 2k or 3.5 k, so there was a hole between my upper bass drivers and the TBIs.
I suppose a more fair test would have been to compare these TBIs to something in their price range/class from the Seas or ScanSpeak line of tweeters. According to their website these tweeters sell for $150.00USD/pair.
Never the less for the small size of these units they really surprised me with what they could do.
After I digest what I heard some more I might add some more verbiage to this post. |
Walter,
Thanks for the fair review. I have attached a coupla graphs that demonstrate the dispersion characteristics of the tweets with and without ETL alignment.
Dave
| Description: |
| 1-inch dome tweeter w/ETL |
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TWEP51CO.pdf |
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| 1-inch dome tweeter w/o ETL |
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1inchtweeternoetl.pdf |
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psychoacoustic
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:46 pm Post subject: ETL vs T/S |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | OK, my turn.
Oh, and as for the transmission line concept that Dave talked about, I called my speaker expert that I used to work with years ago, and he says that yes, a cabinet resonance can be reduced/lowered by doing what Dave says, even for tweeters. So I learned something new.  I don't believe it's a new concept with a new patent though, since my speaker guy knew all about it. Perhaps the 'new' patent is a specific application, I didn't do the research.
<edit> it helps if I get Dave's name right! |
Thanks for the review, Curt. Your speaker expert colleague was most likely referring to transmission line speaker enclosure designs that employ T/S alignment , not ETL (closed loop embedded audio transmission line) alignment technology. I am attaching some technical data that might clarify that for him.
Dave
| Description: |
| ETL vs T/S graphs & technical explanation |
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ETL vs TS graphs.doc |
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psychoacoustic
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:31 pm Post subject: Old people |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | Dave, here's a target market that my speaker guy suggested: Old people.
Why? They have more hearing loss than younger people, and maybe I PMed you already, there's a reason that the Klipsch center channel speaker is popular: It as a built in horn to accentuate the high frequencies. Market the tweeter to the aging that have a HTIB, and you've got instant sales. |
We're all over that, Curt. You're right again (damn) but here's another thought on that subject.
Many younger people also suffer from a lack of hearing acuity and would really like the sound that these particular tweeters produce; having ruined their hearing from listening to loud music, etc. I know that my hearing was damaged from working around jet fighters in the Air Force, but the highs I can hear from these little guys are revealing details I've not heard since my youth. Maybe it's psychoacoustics  , but I've auditioned a lot of speakers with different tweeters that have never done that... at least for me.
Dave
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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All I can add to that is:
THOSE DAMN YOUNG KIDS AND THEIR LOUD ROCK AND ROLL MUSIC! 
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psychoacoustic
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| WTS wrote: |
I suppose what I compared them to isn't exactly fair but it's the only set of high end speakers I have. The drivers in my speakers are all Dynaudio's top end drivers, the tweeter alone are worth over $1k and the mids are close to that. With that said how I went about comparing them was I connected the TBIs to the same connection which power my upper drivers as I have a biamped system. I draped a heavy double folded towel down from the top of the speaker cabinet to cover the tweeter and the upper midrange drivers, then I hung the TBI tweeter just over the top of the cabinet infront of the towel. I then switched back and forth from covered to uncovered - when the main drivers where uncovered the TBIs were covered etc.
Some of the discs I listened to were Chet Atkins/Mark Knopler Neck To Neck, Dire Straits Brothers in Arms, Dave Grusin Migration.
What can I say, for such a small driver it sounded quite remarkable. It never sounded strained at any time and at times the peaks got very loud. But that is the good point, the bad points are they sounded congested/vealed, their sound stage was very narrow, although that could be because they weren't mounted on proper baffle (all my drivers are mounted on a 1" thick lead baffle). They tended to emphasize certain areas and not others along the frq response curve, no freq curve was supplied so I have no idea where the peaks and valleys occur with these tweeters. Also they did seem to be fairly directional. I never listened to them for hours on end but I had the feeling they could get fatiguing. Of course I should mention that there was no doubt a hole created in the full freq response when I covered up my drivers to use the TBIs, how big it was I don't know as I don't know if the TBIs crossed over at 2k or 3.5 k, so there was a hole between my upper bass drivers and the TBIs.
I suppose a more fair test would have been to compare these TBIs to something in their price range/class from the Seas or ScanSpeak line of tweeters. According to their website these tweeters sell for $150.00USD/pair.
Never the less for the small size of these units they really surprised me with what they could do.
After I digest what I heard some more I might add some more verbiage to this post. |
Walt,
Here are some observations and comments. You covered up both the tweeter and mid-range drivers and replaced them with our tweeter. Gathering from this information, your speaker is most likely a 3-way or 4-way system. Meaning that your midrange driver probably covers frequencies that our tweeter and the filter that it comes with is not designed for. This set up most likely created a big gap in the response. If it is a original Dynaudio system, you can be certain they are using 6db slope cross overs which is a good thing considering we are using the same slope they are.
Nevertheless, the woofer used in the Dynaudio is most likely not voiced to operate at frequencies which would be necessary for our tweeter to sound coherent with. As you said, the little TBI tweeter is remarkable on its own but it cannot replace both midrange and upper frequencies. I'm guessing that there must be a problem disconnecting just the Dynaudio tweeters and inserting the TBI tweets while leaving the midrange drivers alone (rather than covering them up). In addition, the efficiency of Dynaudio drivers is much lower than the TBI tweeter with no pad. I understand now why the highs must have been much too loud compared to the woofers output; no wonder you were talking about listening fatigue.
Audio engineers agree that the crossover is a vital part of any speaker system involving multiple speaker drivers. In fact one reason the single driver TBI Majestic Diamond 1 series full range mini monitors sound as good as they do is, you guessed it: no crossover. You might like them to have more highs sometimes, I like to EQ mine. It seems to be the least destructive way to manipulate the response. Digital Filters (not all of them) can accomplish tone control with minimal phase shifts, something passive line-level crossovers can not claim.
In short, adding a tweeter (especially to a high end speaker system) always comes at a price since there is always a cross over involved. I would hope that you might give it another try, if feasible, after reading this.
Dave
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psychoacoustic
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | OK, my turn.
Let me start by saying that I opened the box with anticipation. What I got was 'car stereo' tweeters as expected, with surface and flush mounts, with a little inline crossover. Nothing new here really, I see these from Pyramid at say $20 per pair, or from Alpine or other name brand at say $200 a pair.
I then connected them to my bench POS 4" 2 way speakers with an internal tweeter, the TBIs were larger than the tiny tweets (dome) in my bench speakers.
I connected the TBIs in parallel with the boxes, and no question, the top end was extended. Whether I could listen to the extra high end is certainly a question as WTS says. What I did notice is that a lot of these tweeters are crossed over at 3-4Khz, resulting in very little mids coming through the factory box tweeters. Disconnect them, and you lose the highs, but you retain the mids. From what I heard by connecting the TBIs only to the speaker line is more mids than I'd normally expect from tweeters.
So, given the application in a HTIB system with LCR speakers with poor highs, these additions will certainly bring that out. Will they add to a high end HT system? Probably not, assuming that existing tweeters cover the range that these do.
I exchanged a couple of emails with Dave, and suggested that the tweeters be mounted in a surface mount small box so that they could sit on top of a center channel or even a plasma. What came in the box is a surface mount plastic thing that needed a screw drilled into something to hold it in place. He then emailed me some mockups of cabinets, which addressed my issue.
Another thing that the TBI doesn't address is is various speaker sensitivities. Bose come in at 84-88db 1w/1m, Klipschorns come in at something like 102db. Dave said that they had entertained a level control, but decided against it due to costs.
I want to fire these into my car, as I've got cheapie tweeters at the tops of each door, and want to see how these do. Haven't had time to do that yet.
So, will they do what Dave claim? Sure.
Oh, and as for the transmission line concept that Dave talked about, I called my speaker expert that I used to work with years ago, and he says that yes, a cabinet resonance can be reduced/lowered by doing what Dave says, even for tweeters. So I learned something new. I don't believe it's a new concept with a new patent though, since my speaker guy knew all about it. Perhaps the 'new' patent is a specific application, I didn't do the research.
Bob also says that the 'car stereo' box will be reworked shortly, that's just the way he gets them in.
Bob, feel free to add or clarify on any of the above.
<edit> it helps if I get Dave's name right! |
Curt,
Okay, so our tweets didn't blow your skirt up. But wait to you hear our new "Isoteric" subwoofer - it'll blow you away. This ETL aligned sub was designed with the HT enthusiast in mind, who also likes very natural and realistic low to mid bass in their music. It has a 10" driver.
If you think I caused a stink on your forum, check out the response from the Audioholics forum members on the thread "Where are all you experts now?" at http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62125. They went absolutely ballistic until one of their most respected members actually showed up at our showroom in Atlanta and auditioned the prototype. He said,
"We listened to some fretless bass, and I was very impressed with how the resonance (that "singing" sound unique to fretless bass) was reproduced on the TBI sub. It was nice. I don't know what characteristic would assist reproducing this sound, but TBI clearly had it over the Martin Logan. I did not hear anything that the Dynamo did better than the TBI sub, so have to conclude that the TBI is a better (albeit more expensive) sub. Later, we hooked up the Magellan VI su to compare against the Dynamo. It also bested the Dynamo in the same fretless bass and produced solid and deep musical bass from the 6" driver! Again, I would consider this a better sub than the Dynamo (and again it is more expensive, but not by so much if you go to the pre-closeout price for the Dynamo). I am very impressed that a sub with a 6" driver could perform as well as the TBI does regardless of the price."
Incredibly, all the other Audioholics mavens have now been silent.
Dave
| Description: |
| "KEW" auditions the new "Isoteric" subwoofer at TBI Sound showroom |
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Audioholics member review.doc |
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