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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:59 am Post subject: |
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Man. I didn't think I'd have to write a large post for a while. That's why I haven't posted anything in the cap thread for a while. Needed a break. But it will take a little bit to explain this.
So I just finished reading an LG LED training manual. Very interesting read. Anyways, yes there are inverters, and very similar to the florescent inverter but slightly different.
This particular LG is the 47" version with full led backlight and local dimming. It has 1536 leds arranged in 128 blocks. There is global dimming and local dimming. The local dimming allows control over the various led blocks allowing dimming just in certain sections based on luminance input.
As you can see there are a lot of LED's to light up. This is where the inverters come into play. In this model there are 2 inverters. Both run off the same 24vdc/5 amp source. From that one source there are (8) 40vdc outputs, each driving 16 groups of leds.
Now it takes a special circuit to increase the output voltage, output current and output frequency. Especially the frequency change. Here we basically have 8 individual conversion circuits.
More then likely the process here is to convert the incoming dc voltage to ac and then convert it back to dc to achieve that goal. Even an actual inverter that converts a dc to ac voltage can usually be reversed to change ac to dc.
In this case it is dc in and eventually dc out.
So it retained the name inverter because of the process use to achieve the outcome.
Any questions class?
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:48 am Post subject: |
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Ya, I guts a question. When you go to BB and look at these, how can you tell if its full LED or edge? I don't recall seeing that on the little sticker on the shelf. I'm obviously going to want the local dimming for better black levels and color reproduction HE HE HE HE He said reproduction
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Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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Elaine Benes
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 1416
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:59 am Post subject: |
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I'm not sure how many of you guys have seen one of these local dimming LED LCD panels in action in a real persons home with a good source and good setup, but just to let you know, I have, and they are FANTASTIC. REAL ACTUAL black, not a reproduction but actual zero light output can't tell where the f'ing tv is black, and stupendous picture. They are head and shoulders above any other tv image I've ever seen, if they were cheap and available in 84" width, I'd replace my projector right now.
Seriously, they're so good its scary...
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:13 am Post subject: |
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The edge led displays are super thin, like around 1 1/2" thick. The full led ones are still around 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 thick.
There is also a third type that uses red, green and blue leds but haven't heard about many of these.
If you go to BB website and look under LED televisions under the overview tab, many (not all)give some description of what type they are.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| Elaine Benes wrote: | I'm not sure how many of you guys have seen one of these local dimming LED LCD panels in action in a real persons home with a good source and good setup, but just to let you know, I have, and they are FANTASTIC. REAL ACTUAL black, not a reproduction but actual zero light output can't tell where the f'ing tv is black, and stupendous picture. They are head and shoulders above any other tv image I've ever seen, if they were cheap and available in 84" width, I'd replace my projector right now.
Seriously, they're so good its scary... |
Yea, that backlighting was a real problem on CCFL. Solving that issue along with 240hz scan rate and I can just imagine. I wouldn't be surprised if super large sizes come out. The large florescent tube was a limiting problem. Now its just a matter of adding more LED's. The panel itself is not size limited.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:25 am Post subject: |
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Well were up to 82" already but looks like regular LCD for now.
Quote:
World’s largest LCD panel
Last but not least, Samsung's 82-inch LCD TV panel is the largest LCD panel in the world, and was produced on the world's largest (1,870 x 2,200 mm) TFT-LCD production line, located in Tangjeong, Korea.
Benefiting from 7G (Seventh Generation) technology, Samsung's 82-inch LCD prototype is equipped with proprietary extended-viewing-angle technology, an unsurpassed vertical and horizontal viewing angle of 180 degrees, 92 percent NTSC color reproduction and a screen quality response speed of 8 ms or less. In addition to the 40- and 46-inch LCD TV panels currently in mass production, Samsung believes that the 82-inch LCD TV panel, along with a 57-inch LCD panel, will impact significantly the growth of the large LCD TV market.
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bbfarmht
Joined: 27 May 2006
Posts: 1273
Location: Where the Mississippi runs east to west!!
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donaldk
Joined: 17 Jun 2008
Posts: 308
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:39 am Post subject: |
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Sharp has had the biggest one at 108" the Biggest FP, till Panasonic started showing the 150" plasma the following year.
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:45 am Post subject: |
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I think they are compensating for their lack of 'stature'.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:16 am Post subject: |
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I am still not convinced. I know some have said that the LEDs are awesome, but I wasn't blown away by anything at Cedia. I know it is a show, but they still look like they have the motion resolution issue.
As for their price, I still think they are high, but not out of sight like flat panels from a couple of years ago. Since most here are focused on price/performance, I would go plasma. Sears had a 50" LG last Saturday for $875. 720p is even cheaper. My guess is that there will be a lot of good deals on plasma from now till the Super Bowl.
Oh, I forgot to add that Mac you need to get up there and retrieve that lovely Ampro. After that, you can journey on down to Cape Canaveral for some nice warm weather. If you are up to it, then you and Scott can turn the Ampros into the greatest CRT ever. 
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RVonse
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 3152
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | David_Web wrote: | | LED are DC to DC (or DC to current) which means an inverter. |
OK, I'm thoroughly confused. I understand an inverter for DC-to-AC for CCFL. But, why with DC-based LED's do you need an inverter? I thought an inverter was specifically to convert DC to AC. Or, are they using some sort of modified AC LED in a high-voltage AC circuit or something?
SC |
I could be wrong but here is what I always thought. An LED display uses an inverter to power the backlighting. I know my laptop has an LED display and when I blew out the inverter the display still worked but it was so dim you could barely make anything out. I am guessing the backlighting device must be powered by some kind of voltage much higher than what the laptop battery can normally deliver. Anyway, when I replaced the inverter board it was bright again. Plasma display I think is different though because the elements themselves produced bright light by themselves. And stefuel is right that plasma does put out quite a bit of heat. I can feel it when I walk past mine.
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:02 am Post subject: |
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I had a couple of minutes to search BB for a suitable LED. So, if we've come to the conclusion that the full back lit, local dimming ones are the way to go, in the 46" range Toshiba is the one to consider. I also tried to compare energy usage between the same size LED's and plasma's but they were only listed as "Energy Star compliant". I think you actually need the owners manual in front of you for that information. The last time I was in BB I was speaking to a female sales person in the Magnolia section who had big boobs and brains to match (at least she seemed to have brains. The other was obvious) told me that the Plasma's used the most energy followed by the LCD and then the LED's. I can't remember if she said the LED's used about a third of the power of the LCD or the Plasma's but considerably less than the others. That's important as this one the kids use all day when they are home. Damn, those boobs were fogging my judgement
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Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| stefuel wrote: | | I had a couple of minutes to search BB for a suitable LED. So, if we've come to the conclusion that the full back lit, local dimming ones are the way to go, in the 46" range Toshiba is the one to consider. I also tried to compare energy usage between the same size LED's and plasma's but they were only listed as "Energy Star compliant". I think you actually need the owners manual in front of you for that information. The last time I was in BB I was speaking to a female sales person in the Magnolia section who had big boobs and brains to match (at least she seemed to have brains. The other was obvious) told me that the Plasma's used the most energy followed by the LCD and then the LED's. I can't remember if she said the LED's used about a third of the power of the LCD or the Plasma's but considerably less than the others. That's important as this one the kids use all day when they are home. Damn, those boobs were fogging my judgement |
Yea, I know what your saying. Whenever there's boobs involved I'm usually arguing with that voice in my head, saying (no, we can't do that, we'll get arrested, while the other voice is saying, your wrong, she'll enjoy it and drag us into the back room, I saw it on tv).
Meanwhile, I pretty much hear nothing she is saying. 
And if she's smart too then she has a white overcoat and glasses on in my head....
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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The chart on this site shows plasmas being the biggest energy hogs by far -- not surprising considering the "fry an egg on the screen" comments. Everything else seems to be relatively comparable. Supposedly the LED backlights only save about 30% or so. That seems surprising if the CCFL's are so inefficient.
| Spanky Ham wrote: | | As for their price, I still think they are high, but not out of sight like flat panels from a couple of years ago. |
That Samsung that Adam linked to is supposed to go for over $64k... I'd call that out of sight!! 
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | stefuel wrote: | | I had a couple of minutes to search BB for a suitable LED. So, if we've come to the conclusion that the full back lit, local dimming ones are the way to go, in the 46" range Toshiba is the one to consider. I also tried to compare energy usage between the same size LED's and plasma's but they were only listed as "Energy Star compliant". I think you actually need the owners manual in front of you for that information. The last time I was in BB I was speaking to a female sales person in the Magnolia section who had big boobs and brains to match (at least she seemed to have brains. The other was obvious) told me that the Plasma's used the most energy followed by the LCD and then the LED's. I can't remember if she said the LED's used about a third of the power of the LCD or the Plasma's but considerably less than the others. That's important as this one the kids use all day when they are home. Damn, those boobs were fogging my judgement |
Yea, I know what your saying. Whenever there's boobs involved I'm usually arguing with that voice in my head, saying (no, we can't do that, we'll get arrested, while the other voice is saying, your wrong, she'll enjoy it and drag us into the back room, I saw it on tv).
Meanwhile, I pretty much hear nothing she is saying.
And if she's smart too then she has a white overcoat and glasses on in my head.... |
Well I heard what she said, when she said, she'd love to see what the 4600HD looked like. That's when the "other voice" kicked in, in overdrive
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Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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CircuitCity has a good assortment of LED panels also.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| stefuel wrote: | | I had a couple of minutes to search BB for a suitable LED. So, if we've come to the conclusion that the full back lit, local dimming ones are the way to go, in the 46" range Toshiba is the one to consider. I also tried to compare energy usage between the same size LED's and plasma's but they were only listed as "Energy Star compliant". I think you actually need the owners manual in front of you for that information. The last time I was in BB I was speaking to a female sales person in the Magnolia section who had big boobs and brains to match (at least she seemed to have brains. The other was obvious) told me that the Plasma's used the most energy followed by the LCD and then the LED's. I can't remember if she said the LED's used about a third of the power of the LCD or the Plasma's but considerably less than the others. That's important as this one the kids use all day when they are home. Damn, those boobs were fogging my judgement |
| garyfritz wrote: | The chart on this site shows plasmas being the biggest energy hogs by far -- not surprising considering the "fry an egg on the screen" comments. Everything else seems to be relatively comparable. Supposedly the LED backlights only save about 30% or so. That seems surprising if the CCFL's are so inefficient.
| Spanky Ham wrote: | | As for their price, I still think they are high, but not out of sight like flat panels from a couple of years ago. |
That Samsung that Adam linked to is supposed to go for over $64k... I'd call that out of sight!! |
Based on some quick math of 4k hours usage a year, you would spend an extra $80 in electricity. If you are interested in the environment, then you could get a plasma and put the money saved into a solar panel or wind turbine.
Mac,
Do you think these will have higher failure rates or about the same as regular LCDs in the first year or two?
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | | stefuel wrote: | | I had a couple of minutes to search BB for a suitable LED. So, if we've come to the conclusion that the full back lit, local dimming ones are the way to go, in the 46" range Toshiba is the one to consider. I also tried to compare energy usage between the same size LED's and plasma's but they were only listed as "Energy Star compliant". I think you actually need the owners manual in front of you for that information. The last time I was in BB I was speaking to a female sales person in the Magnolia section who had big boobs and brains to match (at least she seemed to have brains. The other was obvious) told me that the Plasma's used the most energy followed by the LCD and then the LED's. I can't remember if she said the LED's used about a third of the power of the LCD or the Plasma's but considerably less than the others. That's important as this one the kids use all day when they are home. Damn, those boobs were fogging my judgement |
| garyfritz wrote: | The chart on this site shows plasmas being the biggest energy hogs by far -- not surprising considering the "fry an egg on the screen" comments. Everything else seems to be relatively comparable. Supposedly the LED backlights only save about 30% or so. That seems surprising if the CCFL's are so inefficient.
| Spanky Ham wrote: | | As for their price, I still think they are high, but not out of sight like flat panels from a couple of years ago. |
That Samsung that Adam linked to is supposed to go for over $64k... I'd call that out of sight!! |
Based on some quick math of 4k hours usage a year, you would spend an extra $80 in electricity. If you are interested in the environment, then you could get a plasma and put the money saved into a solar panel or wind turbine.
Mac,
Do you think these will have higher failure rates or about the same as regular LCDs in the first year or two? |
Until these companies start using higher quality capacitors, failures are going to be high.
The only real differences between the Florescent and led's are the lamps and the inverter style. There are very few florescent lamp failures so that probably wont change unless the leds end up being a common failure.
I would say the led inverters will be less likely to fail from what I have seen as far as the design because they dont have a particular part that was a semi common failure part on the florescent inverter.
So the basic answer would probably be, the failure rate will probably be about the same.
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:20 am Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | Spanky Ham wrote: | | stefuel wrote: | | I had a couple of minutes to search BB for a suitable LED. So, if we've come to the conclusion that the full back lit, local dimming ones are the way to go, in the 46" range Toshiba is the one to consider. I also tried to compare energy usage between the same size LED's and plasma's but they were only listed as "Energy Star compliant". I think you actually need the owners manual in front of you for that information. The last time I was in BB I was speaking to a female sales person in the Magnolia section who had big boobs and brains to match (at least she seemed to have brains. The other was obvious) told me that the Plasma's used the most energy followed by the LCD and then the LED's. I can't remember if she said the LED's used about a third of the power of the LCD or the Plasma's but considerably less than the others. That's important as this one the kids use all day when they are home. Damn, those boobs were fogging my judgement |
| garyfritz wrote: | The chart on this site shows plasmas being the biggest energy hogs by far -- not surprising considering the "fry an egg on the screen" comments. Everything else seems to be relatively comparable. Supposedly the LED backlights only save about 30% or so. That seems surprising if the CCFL's are so inefficient.
| Spanky Ham wrote: | | As for their price, I still think they are high, but not out of sight like flat panels from a couple of years ago. |
That Samsung that Adam linked to is supposed to go for over $64k... I'd call that out of sight!! |
Based on some quick math of 4k hours usage a year, you would spend an extra $80 in electricity. If you are interested in the environment, then you could get a plasma and put the money saved into a solar panel or wind turbine.
Mac,
Do you think these will have higher failure rates or about the same as regular LCDs in the first year or two? |
Until these companies start using higher quality capacitors, failures are going to be high.
The only real differences between the Florescent and led's are the lamps and the inverter style. There are very few florescent lamp failures so that probably wont change unless the leds end up being a common failure.
I would say the led inverters will be less likely to fail from what I have seen as far as the design because they dont have a particular part that was a semi common failure part on the florescent inverter.
So the basic answer would probably be, the failure rate will probably be about the same. |
Ahhhhh, but what is the biggest cause of failure little grasshopper? Cmon, I know you know this one and why LEDs are claiming such a long MTF rate.
OK, what happened to the little light bulb emoticon
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Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:46 am Post subject: |
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| stefuel wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | | Spanky Ham wrote: | | stefuel wrote: | | I had a couple of minutes to search BB for a suitable LED. So, if we've come to the conclusion that the full back lit, local dimming ones are the way to go, in the 46" range Toshiba is the one to consider. I also tried to compare energy usage between the same size LED's and plasma's but they were only listed as "Energy Star compliant". I think you actually need the owners manual in front of you for that information. The last time I was in BB I was speaking to a female sales person in the Magnolia section who had big boobs and brains to match (at least she seemed to have brains. The other was obvious) told me that the Plasma's used the most energy followed by the LCD and then the LED's. I can't remember if she said the LED's used about a third of the power of the LCD or the Plasma's but considerably less than the others. That's important as this one the kids use all day when they are home. Damn, those boobs were fogging my judgement |
| garyfritz wrote: | The chart on this site shows plasmas being the biggest energy hogs by far -- not surprising considering the "fry an egg on the screen" comments. Everything else seems to be relatively comparable. Supposedly the LED backlights only save about 30% or so. That seems surprising if the CCFL's are so inefficient.
| Spanky Ham wrote: | | As for their price, I still think they are high, but not out of sight like flat panels from a couple of years ago. |
That Samsung that Adam linked to is supposed to go for over $64k... I'd call that out of sight!! |
Based on some quick math of 4k hours usage a year, you would spend an extra $80 in electricity. If you are interested in the environment, then you could get a plasma and put the money saved into a solar panel or wind turbine.
Mac,
Do you think these will have higher failure rates or about the same as regular LCDs in the first year or two? |
Until these companies start using higher quality capacitors, failures are going to be high.
The only real differences between the Florescent and led's are the lamps and the inverter style. There are very few florescent lamp failures so that probably wont change unless the leds end up being a common failure.
I would say the led inverters will be less likely to fail from what I have seen as far as the design because they dont have a particular part that was a semi common failure part on the florescent inverter.
So the basic answer would probably be, the failure rate will probably be about the same. |
Ahhhhh, but what is the biggest cause of failure little grasshopper? Cmon, I know you know this one and why LEDs are claiming such a long MTF rate.
OK, what happened to the little light bulb emoticon |
I must of ate to much turkey today, as I cant decipher what your asking or saying. Can you elaborate?
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