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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | And also I welcome your words but I would prefer some support along with it. Like........ your post showing vented and leaking caps. However, any caps that you change that have no visible signs of defect....... Or are you just changing them based on age...... or hours of use?. |
Frankly, I repalce them all because people pay me to do so. in other words when someone sends me a set I replace 140 + parts regardlesss of hours. Everyone gets the same work done. The avergae board set people send me are 12 to 14 years old with 20K hours on them.
| macgyver655 wrote: | | did you value test or ESR all those caps? Or because the originals were 85c/2000 hours and you believe the 105c/5000 hour ones are better? ...... so give me some data. |
I don't value test them, after 12 hours of work all i want to do is scoop the old parts, wick, and clipped wire leads off the counter and directly into the trash bin. I install the 105c caps because saving 20 bucks to put the 85C caps back into the machine isn't what people are paying me to do. Folks like to know that when they shell out money they're getting the best parts available so that's what I provide, simple as that.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | | And also I welcome your words but I would prefer some support along with it. Like........ your post showing vented and leaking caps. However, any caps that you change that have no visible signs of defect....... Or are you just changing them based on age...... or hours of use?. |
Frankly, I repalce them all because people pay me to do so. in other words when someone sends me a set I replace 140 + parts regardlesss of hours. Everyone gets the same work done. The avergae board set people send me are 12 to 14 years old with 20K hours on them.
| macgyver655 wrote: | | did you value test or ESR all those caps? Or because the originals were 85c/2000 hours and you believe the 105c/5000 hour ones are better? ...... so give me some data. |
I don't value test them, after 12 hours of work all i want to do is scoop the old parts, wick, and clipped wire leads off the counter and directly into the trash bin. I install the 105c caps because saving 20 bucks to put the 85C caps back into the machine isn't what people are paying me to do. Folks like to know that when they shell out money they're getting the best parts available so that's what I provide, simple as that. |
Good answer Drag....... I will not comment at all.... 
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:08 am Post subject: |
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Athanasios.... I just reread your one post where you say "Most of us do believe that the shelf life is about 5000 hours" and I'm very curious.............. who is most of us?
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:14 am Post subject: |
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1 more.......
quote:
ALERTS......Customers Beware
Counterfeit Nichicon Products
To all Nichicon customers,
Recently it has been reported that counterfeit Nichicon capacitor products are turning up in the market. These counterfeit products are not produced by nor guaranteed by Nichicon. They are of inferior quality and could cause end product failure as well as possible safety hazards.
In order to protect your company, do not use counterfeit parts. Only use genuine Nichicon products purchased from an AUTHORIZED Nichicon distributor or Nichicon sales office.
If you have any concerns as to the authenticity of any Nichicon product please contact your local Nichicon sales office for support.
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Sparky015
Joined: 12 May 2009
Posts: 1185
Location: Cleveland / Akron, OH
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| Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | 1 more.......
quote:
ALERTS......Customers Beware
Counterfeit Nichicon Products
To all Nichicon customers,
Recently it has been reported that counterfeit Nichicon capacitor products are turning up in the market. These counterfeit products are not produced by nor guaranteed by Nichicon. They are of inferior quality and could cause end product failure as well as possible safety hazards.
In order to protect your company, do not use counterfeit parts. Only use genuine Nichicon products purchased from an AUTHORIZED Nichicon distributor or Nichicon sales office.
If you have any concerns as to the authenticity of any Nichicon product please contact your local Nichicon sales office for support. |
This part is key "buy parts from AUTHORIZED Distributors". I'm still reading up on the issue, but it appears people and businesses are looking for lower cost suppliers and ignoring the authorized distributor part.
Paul
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Sparky015 wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | 1 more.......
quote:
ALERTS......Customers Beware
Counterfeit Nichicon Products
To all Nichicon customers,
Recently it has been reported that counterfeit Nichicon capacitor products are turning up in the market. These counterfeit products are not produced by nor guaranteed by Nichicon. They are of inferior quality and could cause end product failure as well as possible safety hazards.
In order to protect your company, do not use counterfeit parts. Only use genuine Nichicon products purchased from an AUTHORIZED Nichicon distributor or Nichicon sales office.
If you have any concerns as to the authenticity of any Nichicon product please contact your local Nichicon sales office for support. |
This part is key "buy parts from AUTHORIZED Distributors". I'm still reading up on the issue, but it appears people and businesses are looking for lower cost suppliers and ignoring the authorized distributor part.
Paul |
True......problem is your putting all your faith in the hands of that distributor or actually your seller. You cant usually buy from a distributor. And that distributor has to rely on their distributor. Products almost always pass through a few hands to get to the consumer.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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So no one has found a chart for capacitor hours when used under rated temperatures?
Or are we chicken to post...... 
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | So no one has found a chart for capacitor hours when used under rated temperatures?
Or are we chicken to post...... |
I laready posted it,page 5
At 80% applied voltage the failure rate is 90% at 85C core temperature. Note that's core temp.not ambient.
http://www.cde.com/tech/reliability.pdf
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | So no one has found a chart for capacitor hours when used under rated temperatures?
Or are we chicken to post...... |
I laready posted it,page 5
At 80% applied voltage the failure rate is 90% at 85C core temperature. Note that's core temp.not ambient.
http://www.cde.com/tech/reliability.pdf |
LOL.....another reason why I post screen shots. I couldn't find the answer in there but I skimmed it, and I also know what I'm looking for.
Anyways the question doesn't pertain to core temp. Core temp is design dependent and although I agree a high core can cause premature failure, it is an abnormality.
I'm trying to keep this normal use for now.
Most here are curious and want to learn but a long read probably wont get read.
If no answer in a few hours then I'll post it.
So let me rephrase the question.
If a capacitor is being used in an ambient temp less then the max rated temp, how would this affect the rated minimum hours of life.
It was already posted the hours would go up but there is a specific common answer to this with charts.... 
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:09 am Post subject: |
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again, from the article. For every 10 degree Celsius drop in temp. and 20% drop in applied DC voltage life is doubled. so if it's an 85C 100 volt cap rated for 2000 hours and it's run at 45C and 50 volts it should last approxiamtely 7000 hours and still operate within it's rated capacitance. After that internal leakage would presumably start to increase.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:05 am Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | again, from the article. For every 10 degree Celsius drop in temp. and 20% drop in applied DC voltage life is doubled. so if it's an 85C 100 volt cap rated for 2000 hours and it's run at 45C and 50 volts it should last approxiamtely 7000 hours and still operate within it's rated capacitance. After that internal leakage would presumably start to increase. |
For every 10C drop in ambient temp the rated life is doubled is correct. Where your getting that 7000 hour figure at I dont know. Every chart I've seen shows like this.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:29 am Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | again, from the article. For every 10 degree Celsius drop in temp. and 20% drop in applied DC voltage life is doubled. so if it's an 85C 100 volt cap rated for 2000 hours and it's run at 45C and 50 volts it should last approxiamtely 7000 hours and still operate within it's rated capacitance. After that internal leakage would presumably start to increase. |
Alright, you forced me to read that long document and I have this to say.
THAT IS THE BIGGEST PIECE OF bull**** THAT I'VE READ YET....
And whats worse yet is it more so supports what I said. Please dont make me discuss that thing again because it will just piss me off.....
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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In the chart below note the lines marked 1 and 2. These would be 85 degree C, 2000 and 3000 hour rating. If you follow the line showing lower ambient temperature of use you will see that if being used in an environment of approximately 45 degrees C (projectors are mostly under this temp) the minimum life expectancy should be 40,000 to 60,000 hours.
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | Dont be shy to respond. I think this should be discussed openly and with no hard feelings amongst anybody. It may answer questions that many here have. |
| macgyver655 wrote: | THAT IS THE BIGGEST PIECE OF bull**** THAT I'VE READ YET....
And whats worse yet is it more so supports what I said. Please dont make me discuss that thing again because it will just piss me off..... |
oh well, so much for your rationale discussion with no hard feelings. The fact that you know a white paper written by Cornell Engineers who specialize in cap design is "total bull****" is amazing. Maybe you should start your own company making caps that last forever. 
Last edited by draganm on Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | | Dont be shy to respond. I think this should be discussed openly and with no hard feelings amongst anybody. It may answer questions that many here have. |
| macgyver655 wrote: | THAT IS THE BIGGEST PIECE OF bull**** THAT I'VE READ YET....
And whats worse yet is it more so supports what I said. Please dont make me discuss that thing again because it will just piss me off..... |
oh well, so much for your rationale discussion with no hard feelings. The fact that you know a white paper written by Cornell Engineers who specialize in cap design is "total bull****" is amazing. Maybe you should start your own company making that caps that last forever. |
Hey, no hard feelings at all Drag..
And yes I did say post what you have so I'll give you that.
But you have to admit that paper used the word assume this or assume that at least 20 times. It discussed possible assumed failure rates of capacitor banks. Variables that were nothing more then opinion without true tests.
But as I said at the end of my post. It still implies exactly what I said. Capacitor life doubles for each 10 degree C drop im ambient temp.
Dont give up on me Drag. Your the only one questioning me and without that I'm just talking to myself.
I think by the time I got to page 5 I felt like I was jamming a sliver under my fingernail...
Was there something specific in that paper that you felt I should really look at?
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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Now if you want to discuss rated voltage vs applied voltage just say the word.
Or if its time for ripple currents or ESR ?
You pick..... but 1 at a time....
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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Dont get yourself down either Drag. After we get through all the basics and affects on capacitors I'm going to tell you how horrible they are.....
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | Now if you want to discuss rated voltage vs applied voltage just say the word.
Or if its time for ripple currents or ESR ?
You pick..... but 1 at a time.... |
yeah well that's the problem with a simple chart like the ones above isn't it? core temp.,applied voltage, ESR, and ripple current are all part of a single equation that calculates cap life . So to take just one variable, like temp., and plot a graph that supposedly shows a cap will last 30 years is pure nonsense IMO 
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