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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | Now if you want to discuss rated voltage vs applied voltage just say the word.
Or if its time for ripple currents or ESR ?
You pick..... but 1 at a time....  |
yeah well that's the problem with a simple chart like the ones above isn't it? core temp.,applied voltage, ESR, and ripple current are all part of a single equation that calculates cap life . So to take just one variable, like temp., and plot a graph that supposedly shows a cap will last 30 years is pure nonsense IMO  |
You are correct in that each of those things you stated will affect cap life if they are at a point to affect cap life. If none of them are above normal range then the graph would apply. But if just 1 is above normal then it would affect life.
This is the point of this thread and I'm glad you keep bringing this up. So how about we keep exploring these things 1 at a time. Reason being 1 at a time so as to get an understanding on just how each of these things do affect cap life and by changing any of these, can then increase cap life back to a normal weraout time period.
Your philosophy seems to indicate that you just want to bundle every negative together without understanding them and claim that caps just wear out in less then their rated life at full rated temp.
So which would you like to start with? 
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, I almost forgot. You commented on that chart that I posted. If you didn't notice, I didn't include the address bar in that screen shot on purpose. You'd be surprised where that chart came from..... 
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | The best cap is no cap Ok Now mac when you move to the next subject dont forget to change the topic heading from capacitor life VS temp to Cap live Vs ???
Nashou |
Yea, I guess this thread has evolved to be something more like "all about capacitors". But I think in the end the final solution will still pertain to the original topic....
If I just posted a chart like I did above, then many here would just pass it off as having no support. We have to address every angle that affects cap life in order to support a final out come.... 
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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Alright, I had to post this one last document on shelf life of capacitors. Its especially for you Drag.... 
Its a paper that was published in Nuclear Science Magazine, Nuclear Science Symposium and Medical Imaging Conference, 1992., Conference Record of the 1992 IEEE. IEEE stands for The Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers.
The pic contains an abstract from that paper. I couldn't find a complete copy of the paper without paying for it so this is all I have.
Read part B..........
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dturco
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3778
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland
TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:08 am Post subject: |
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Pupom does indeed declare indefinite.
Just one question WTF is Pupom?
_________________
Firefly rules. Can't stop the signal.
http://www.hulu.com/firefly
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:30 am Post subject: |
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Purpose........
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Sparky015
Joined: 12 May 2009
Posts: 1185
Location: Cleveland / Akron, OH
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | Alright, I had to post this one last document on shelf life of capacitors. Its especially for you Drag....
Its a paper that was published in Nuclear Science Magazine, Nuclear Science Symposium and Medical Imaging Conference, 1992., Conference Record of the 1992 IEEE. IEEE stands for The Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers.
The pic contains an abstract from that paper. I couldn't find a complete copy of the paper without paying for it so this is all I have.
Read part B..........
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Just one comment on this article, it's from 1992 written about 1992 and older technology. When this was written, Microsoft was releasing Windows 3.1.... I would recemmend reading it for nostalgia sake, and not think what you buy today follows this article to the letter.
Paul
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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I see it as though they tested caps of that and older era which are whats in our projectors.
I'm not seeing your point......
I'll get to whats in our newer stuff soon....
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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And I really dont understand this "and not think what you buy today follows this article to the letter"
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Sparky015
Joined: 12 May 2009
Posts: 1185
Location: Cleveland / Akron, OH
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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Fair enough, but this article even predates the first Marquees, so not even sure it even applies to stock Pjs people currently have?
| Quote: | | And I really dont understand this "and not think what you buy today follows this article to the letter" |
What I mean by this, is that I would not recemmend reading that article and expect 2009 technology caps to follow that article's findings. Some may, some may not. Either find a newer white paper, or I would encourage the boys and girls at home to to their own DOE (Design of Experiments) and report back with newer results
Not trying to bash you Mac, but I thought there should be a huge disclaimer that goes along with posting that article being that it is nearly 18 years old and most of us don't even have pjs that old.
Paul
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, I didnt think of it as bashing. I'm still discussing.
But if I understand what your saying, then newer caps should exceed this papers findings. Correct? The conclusion stands that a majority of caps that have been in long term storage before and after being reformed show functional parameters within manufacturers specifications.
It found that caps manufactured prior to 1992 should have an indefinite shelf life. This also concurs with other stuff I posted here and stuff I read and didn't post.
Also the paper refers to storage life and my point behind the subject of storage was to merely show that if you stuff your projector away for some years or buy one that had been in long term storage that there is a high possibility that the caps should be fine.
Now if you want to discuss newer technology here then let me say this. Sure current technology may be better, if you can find them and not end up with counterfeits. And thats if your doing your own work. What about your devices your buying? Where did the manufacturer get their stuff from? Were they concerned about quality? Or the dollar bill?
So what do you think a newer paper would say? That one says indefinite and newer stuff is suppose to be better.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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Oh and one more thing. You say that it doesn't affect marquees or newer projector then 1992. How do you know how old the caps were when they were being installed in newer then 1992 projectors?
And actually it would be worse to use a newer paper in this circumstance. You could then argue that the newer paper only applies to newer technology capacitors. And then say that it wont apply to older caps because of their technology.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | Mac, Ever hear the expression " they don't make um like they used to!" ?
Just saying...
Athanasios |
Yep, and it usually means it was made better back then........ 
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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In a couple hours I'll start the next part....
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Sparky015
Joined: 12 May 2009
Posts: 1185
Location: Cleveland / Akron, OH
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | Oh, I didnt think of it as bashing. I'm still discussing.
But if I understand what your saying, then newer caps should exceed this papers findings. Correct? The conclusion stands that a majority of caps that have been in long term storage before and after being reformed show functional parameters within manufacturers specifications.
It found that caps manufactured prior to 1992 should have an indefinite shelf life. This also concurs with other stuff I posted here and stuff I read and didn't post.
So what do you think a newer paper would say? That one says indefinite and newer stuff is suppose to be better. |
Peace, no argument here, although that document doesn't say what test they did to come up with "indefinite". Sounds suspiciously like "we stopped the test after X many hours" and we are calling it indefinite. They could very well store indefinitely, or as long as today's tech, it just doesn't feel right to me, but I may be totally wrong. Probably splitting hairs, as I'm sure both vintages store long enough anyway.
| Quote: | | Also the paper refers to storage life and my point behind the subject of storage was to merely show that if you stuff your projector away for some years or buy one that had been in long term storage that there is a high possibility that the caps should be fine. |
Again, no argument here, although storing unused electronic components in a controlled environment is much different than your pj in your basement, garage, U-Haul, or other non-humidity controlled environment begs the question if that statement is indeed true. I know, splitting hairs again, but there is a science in itself for storing components, especially for harsh environemnt product such as nuc power plants. To say just because controlled storage for a cap is "indefinite", doesn't mean that Ampro sitting in your garage can handle indefinite periods too.
| Quote: | | Now if you want to discuss newer technology here then let me say this. Sure current technology may be better, if you can find them and not end up with counterfeits. And thats if your doing your own work. What about your devices your buying? Where did the manufacturer get their stuff from? Were they concerned about quality? Or the dollar bill? |
I read the counterfit topics, and the same theme kept coming up, people buying from shady sources not authorized by the manufacturer. I called Mouser and Digi-key to enquire about where they buy their components from. They told me if they don't buy direct, they buy from authorized distributors. Therefore if I'm buying the parts, and they are still in production, getting counterfits should be pretty slim. Key word is should be. Now, if I'm buying a finished device, 1) I expect the quality testing to be done so any counterfit parts would be caught at the factory, if not and "quality is not job #1" so-to-speak, that's what the warranty is for! Afterall, today's electronics are only designed for the warranty period before they are ready for the circular filing bin anyway, right?
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Sparky015 wrote: | | Now, if I'm buying a finished device, 1) I expect the quality testing to be done so any counterfit parts would be caught at the factory, if not and "quality is not job #1" so-to-speak, that's what the warranty is for! Afterall, today's electronics are only designed for the warranty period before they are ready for the circular filing bin anyway, right? |
Ahhh...Thats my man Sparky. Always bringing up key points to support my point...
Let take the first sentence.... testing for a counterfeit..... If you read some documents on the technical aspects of the counterfeits then you would know that the counterfeit will test perfect, and as good as a true original. They dont show their true color until after they have been in use for some time, which appears to be anywhere from 500 to 2500 hours. This includes any rating even 125C/10,000 hour.
This would then apply to your second part which would show that they wont begin to fail until they are out of warranty...
Oh, for others reading here... we are on current devices now, not pre 1999.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | To say just because controlled storage for a cap is "indefinite", doesn't mean that Ampro sitting in your garage can handle indefinite periods too. |
Doesn't mean it wont either.....
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | although that document doesn't say what test they did to come up with "indefinite". Sounds suspiciously like "we stopped the test after X many hours" and we are calling it indefinite. |
What is says is: Testing will continue until the capacitors fail to reform.
I would take that as they didn't have any that failed to reform so testing will continue but so far the tests reveal the shelf life of a capacitor to be indefinite.
But I'm not trying to defend it either. I'm just giving you the facts, Jack.....
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