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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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You won't find those that switched to digital here. We track them down and .... eliminate them! 
Funny, I zipped over to the <$3k forum on avs, and I got a real laugh about the continuing postings of: "I put Svideo into my XXX brand set, and it looks awesome!' posts. There's countless posts (and agreers) there. Quick, run grab that HTIAB, it's on sale at WalMart.
It does make me realize what connoisseurs(snobs) we are here.
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emdawgz1
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 7949
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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FROM MY COLD, DEAD HAND!!!!!
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jkruger
Joined: 24 Oct 2007
Posts: 2435
Location: Carlsbad, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| emdawgz1 wrote: | | FROM MY COLD, DEAD HAND!!!!! |
Uh yeah... he died last year.
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emdawgz1
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 7949
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| jkruger wrote: | | emdawgz1 wrote: | | FROM MY COLD, DEAD HAND!!!!! |
Uh yeah... he died last year. |
Ummmm yeah.
But i dont have a picture of me hoisting a g-90 overhead in one hand..... so I just improvised! 
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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GarenT switched. He snagged the smokin' deal on the Pioneer version of the RS2. Of course, that was a HUGE upgrade for him, going from an old 1252, I think. Obviously, he has a FAR superior picture now, and for FAR less money than he could have obtained any 9" machine for, in almost any condition.
I won't be switching for probably at least another couple of years. I enjoy my theater so much as-is, it would be stupid to switch anytime soon. There just isn't anything out there at any reasonable price that would offer me significantly better PQ, at least not enough that the money would make sense. The only reason I'd love to have a digital is to have a scope screen and go AT, and that ain't happening in my current home. Maybe in my next house...
SC
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emdawgz1
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 7949
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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I i can get the new Bravia SXRD VW-200 w/ an anamorphic lens for around 3 grand, id think about switching.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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I'm confused, John... A VW-200 is what, $10k? Anamorph lens another couple grand? Are you talking used in 5 years, that technology/quality new in the same time frame... or what?
SC
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. Green wrote: | | I have one major beef with bulb projectors. Why does EVERY freaking one have to have a different bulb? Why is there no universal bulb/or 2 for each manufacturer? |
Kind of funny, there are like a gazillion digitals and you want 2 bulbs. There were like just a handful of 8" EM CRT brands (less than half a dozen) and still there were two basic tubes but different pinouts (so technically not drop in compatible) among that small set!!!
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, and that sucked too. 
What kills me is the cost of bulbs. I can get a xenon headlamp replacement for my car for about $20. No, it doesn't have the calibrated color response that a projector bulb needs (but I suspect it wouldn't be hard to get it). On the other hand it lasts for years, with tons of lamp strikes, in the worst possible conditions for temperature swings, moisture, vibration, etc. So why can't they make a xenon (or whatever) bulb for projectors for under $300!?
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emdawgz1
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 7949
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| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | I'm confused, John... A VW-200 is what, $10k? Anamorph lens another couple grand? Are you talking used in 5 years, that technology/quality new in the same time frame... or what?
SC |
What i mean is if I can get the Build quality, pic quality, and performance of the 200, w/ the anamorphic at around that price today, i'd switch.
I dont want it 5 yrs from now because unlike the CRT pj a used Digi box is a POC. Cheap build and components... no long term life expectancy.
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emdawgz1
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 7949
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| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | Yeah, and that sucked too.
What kills me is the cost of bulbs. I can get a xenon headlamp replacement for my car for about $20. No, it doesn't have the calibrated color response that a projector bulb needs (but I suspect it wouldn't be hard to get it). On the other hand it lasts for years, with tons of lamp strikes, in the worst possible conditions for temperature swings, moisture, vibration, etc. So why can't they make a xenon (or whatever) bulb for projectors for under $300!? |
Think inkjet printer.....
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | | On the other hand it lasts for years, with tons of lamp strikes, in the worst possible conditions for temperature swings, moisture, vibration, etc. So why can't they make a xenon (or whatever) bulb for projectors for under $300!? |
I've always wondered that, too. I just assumed they had a massive profit margin on them (like ink jet cartridges), but with no information to back that assumption. If they did just have a super-high profit margin, then I'd expect to see some cut-rate manufacturers selling much cheaper "generic" bulbs, but that doesn't seem to be the case, either. Maybe because there are so damn many bulbs, there's not economy of scale for a "generic".
$300 for a bulb seems absolutely insane and definitely counter-intuitive when they can make an a bare OEM 30-40" LCD panel for similar money - with all the waste, environmental stuff, etc.
I'd love to know the reason for what seems like a really high price, too.
SC
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Zebu Fellenz wrote: | | Person 99, and Riderbreck (sp?) both switched. |
Yeah, Matt switched long before me. He switched right at the cost/benefit tipping point. I would not have switched then because I didn't yet find the cheap digi's that acceptable (though I thought the $6000+ ones looked decent).
I switched a year later for two real reasons:
1) We had/have the intent to sell the house, so I wanted to sell the CRT, survey the digi market (because the new house would definately be digi as the tech was obviously there at the expensive price point), and put something in the theater I could let go with the house.
2) Experiment in this house with CIH.
While, of course I waited too long to sell the house, so now I'm waiting for the market to come back a bit. As such, I've now lived with this set up for over 1 year.
5 years ago when a good 8" AC machine from Curt was $4000 fully supported and gone over and a new top class 720p machine with poor CR was >$10,000--it was a no brainer.
To me, digital now is a no brainer. I would happily put my current 720p set up against any 8" machine in the world. Judged purely on how much people enjoyed watching movies on them, I've no doubt my current set up would win hands down. Is it as technically perfect as a high end 8" LC? no. But a couple things simply make the less critically perfect image much more enjoyable to watch. These things are:
1) Image brightness. Just like louder music sounds better to humans, brighter pictures look better. Simple human physiology. To get alot of pop on a CRT in needs to be used on a screen much smaller than most are willing to do. For instance, an 8" looks fantastic on a 80" (diag) screen. Definately looses pop on a 92" or bigger which is what most people run. Which leads to:
2) I'm running a 9.5' wide CIH screen which is fun as hell to watch. No way I could do that with a single CRT.
Is my image technically perfect? No. Do people enjoy it--hell yes. Frankly, not one (non-CRT owning) person has declared my former CRT set up to be superior to the current set up (even when I was running them over/under). We mostly watch movies for enjoyment, not to critically assess aspects of the picture. It is easy to get sucked into "yeah, but my effing black is blacker" or "man that ANSI CR sucks". But frankly, I've moved to a point of assessing the experience wholeistically--how much do I enjoy watching a movie on the set up.
To that point, there is a point at which a picture is so bad it is distracting. I think the digis of 2002 produced pictures like this. Then there is a point at which the picture is not incredible, but good enough not to be distracting and even has positive points that make it enjoyable. To me, that was the second to last and last generation of 720p PJs (think Optoma H79, penultimate and last Sharp and Marantz 720p machines, etc). Then there is the point at which the picture is very involving. We are there today on all technologies with only the lower end LCDs really being noticably weak.
I wish more could see my existing set up. Frankly, I think you'd be blown away--my wife was, my neighbors were, and frankly I was as I managed to piece together a set up that exceeded my expectations.
At this point, there is no way I would buy a new CRT and certainly not two to blend! I would only stay with a current CRT under the following conditions:
1) I had a really well set up 8" LC machine with P16 tubes or a 9", AND
2) I had no desire for a really big, fun, scope image.
- OR -
1) I can't possibly spend 1 cent on my theater.
For those that care and don't know, here is my current video chain:
Sources:
LG BH100 (outputting 480i HDMI for DVDs and 1080p/24 for BD and HD DVD).
Mitsu 2000 and JVC D-VHS machines (all outputting 1080i/60).
QIP 6416 (Verizon Fios--at 1080i/60).
Display Chain:
Lumagen DVI (outputting 720p/72 for 1080p/24 content and 720p/60 for 480i and 1080i/60 content).
Optoma HD7100 (1:1 pixel mapped from the Lumagen).
HTB Anamorphic Lens
Wilsonart DW 9.5' wide curved screen.
The Lumagen is not *completely* necessary as the PJ will do the vertical stretch, but I have it for two reasons:
1) It does the vertical stretch better (for instance, the PJ will not do the vert stretch without overscan).
2) The PJ does not accept 1080p/24 nor does it do frame rate conversion (but it will accept and properly display 720p/72 which the Lumi generates frame locked from a 1080p/24 source).
Here is what this would cost to get my set up now (didn't cost me much more than this 1 year ago):
Lumagen DVI: <$300 (step up to an HDP to be able to do 1080i/60->720p/72 well [DVI doesn't do it well which is why I don't do it--thankfully most content I watch now is BD, so it doesn't matter] for <$900).
Projector: <$400.
New PJ bulb: $180 (don't know how many hours on bulb, so budget for a new one. This could be up to $300 depending upon PJ--this is the price of the bulb for my PJ).
HTB-AR Anamorphic lens: $600 (you can get a bit better lenses for about $2000 or build your own bit worse lens for <$100. Personally, I found the HTB-AR to be far superior to DIY lenses and when properly set up, very close to the $2000 lenses--and that is the key--setting it up well is much harder than setting up a $2000+ lens well).
Screen: : <$200.
That is under $1800. And I can't stress enough how impressed you would be if you just sat back and watched a movie on it. Anyone in Dallas is welcome to come see my set up to judge for yourself.
If someone where willing to spend about $5K on a set up (not be cheap like me), then it is simply no contest.
To me, the difficiencies of the digital are way overblown. They are not the digis of 6 years ago. Hell, my on/off CR AND ANSI CR exceeds by a decent margin that of every single commercial theater on the planet regardless of projection tech. So, it is kind of hard to say that a picture that beats a commercial theater in most respects is crap!!!!
As for bulbs, the average person on average needs one every 3-4 years. For my PJ that is $180. So $45-$60 per year expense. Not that big of a deal!
<flame suit on>
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | Funny, I zipped over to the <$3k forum on avs, and I got a real laugh about the continuing postings of: "I put Svideo into my XXX brand set, and it looks awesome!' posts. There's countless posts (and agreers) there. Quick, run grab that HTIAB, it's on sale at WalMart.
It does make me realize what connoisseurs(snobs) we are here. |
Curt, I think you need to become familiar with this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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drice1234
Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 1309
Location: Allen, Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:14 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I wish more could see my existing set up. Frankly, I think you'd be blown away--my wife was, my neighbors were, and frankly I was as I managed to piece together a set up that exceeded my expectations.
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Just call for a "former CRT owner" meet
Dan
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huggy
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Posts: 927
Location: Melbourne,Australia
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| Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:49 am Post subject: |
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I really don't care much for fade to blacks ( how often do they occur?)or 100% accurate colours ( as long as they aren't cartoonish) or numbers,figures,charts,contrast ratio's etc.......etc.....
To me THE most important thing is image depth and brightness,I get the image depth I want only from a crt and well I cheated on the brightness by getting a 2 gain stewart screen.Coming from a 720p digital,I have to admit Brightness is adictive.
I recently demoed the hd750 with CAVX MKIII lense on a 120" diagonal scope screen,unit was pro calibrated and demo was in a batcave.I can't tell you how much I wanted to fall in love with this setup and replace the behemoth hanging in my theatre ,the image was bright ,uniform and definately had the WOW factor initially however,after sitting down and and just relaxing and enjoying the movie, that initial wow factor wore off and I just wasn't drawn into the movie the way my 9" draws me in.So I felt let down,maybe I had high expectations or I just have an emotional attachment to my crt,but have decided to get a digital for t.v and games,so the best of both worlds really.
Personally the whole Bang for buck thing is a moot point as living in OZ makes it cheaper to go a decent digital than a 9",people want drug money down here for 7" and 8" AC units.
I do understand and respect peoples desire to switch from CRT to digital,but I'm coming from the other side and am finally content with the image I have at home.
Dave
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WTS
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1276
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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I'm with you Dave, one of my brothers has the RS20 on a bit bigger screen than mine in a batcave. And it looks great but it just doesn't have what my Zenith 1200 has. After watching his then going home and watching mine it's like, ahhh that's better. The CRT just has something that draws you more into the screen/picture/movie etc. It's not only the blacks but it's the depth of the image, the smoothness and some other undescribables that makes watching a good CRT that much better. Would I be happy with the RS20, sure if I hadn't watched mine previously or been exposed to CRTs. Hell just watching my old trinitron is better than watching any LCD panel and some plazmas, although my other brothers big Pioneer elite plazma is pretty nice for a panel TV.
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ralpharch
Joined: 02 Nov 2007
Posts: 211
Location: Derwood
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| Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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Another switcher here. Have my $99 1080p digital on order (ok - add another 9 to that to be accurate (optoma hd20) but the reference was to the cheap digital thread here).
Really couldn't see investing more effort into my Marquee AC 81110+ even if it was a late model. After a fall winter and spring without problems, an intermittent (heat related?) vertical sync problem returned this summer. So after troubleshooting (yes - my blly fans are all working but removing the sides didn't help me see that; and no I am not going to deoxit all the IC's and contacts a third time) and then trying to watch a movie on two successive nights this week without success; and having to retreat to the family room with our guest; my patience with the Marquee is over.
As others have said - its not worth fixing versus the alternative (for me) of a cheap digital. I missed out on a local parts machine for $150 or so on E bay - but I can't see spending time effort and money on my current pj.
Looks like there will be at least one cheap parts machine with good tubes available soon.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| huggy wrote: |
To me THE most important thing is image depth and brightness,I get the image depth I want only from a crt and well I cheated on the brightness by getting a 2 gain stewart screen. |
But there is no free lunch! I hate the way a true 2.0 gain screen looks. So, I consider that to be too much of an image distraction.
It is interesting that you would talk about image depth. Basically, after many years with a CRT (last one was the same as Kal's) and now 1 year with a PJ doing an honest to god 647:1 ANSI CR, I've come to the following conclusions:
The CRT renders low APL scenes very believable and with as much depth as can reasonably be expected in low light situations (think the opening morning scene of Gladiator). The digi renders this much more flat and the best I can say is "passable" (but as I pointed out, better than any comercial theater presented that scene). Most watching the scene on my digi would not complain about it, but in a side by side comparison with a great CRT, the digi looks like sh*t.
Now, mid to high APL is a completely different story. Bright scenes by the very nature of our perception have the possiblity for greater depth. On these scenes, the digi just spanks my CRT. My current set up has a FAR greater image depth than the CRT had (I mean like blow you away depth). So much so that my wife even noticed it.
So, with all things, it is a trade off. I used to be more of a perfectionist. Now, I really only care about enjoying the movie. My biggest disappointment with the CRT was the inability to do a really nice big CIH. I don't have a "critical screening room". I have a 2 row theater where friends and family gather to watch movies. I 9.5' wide CIH screen is really ALOT more fun that a 92" 16:9 screen.
The CRT rarely had image aspects that were distracting (most often would be things like a CRT cannot render scenes in Ice Age and Happy Feet well). It was as WTS says, always involving.
As I've said before, if you want to sit around and pick out flaws, the CRT will "win" as it has less flaws. If you want to sit around and watch a movie and see how much you enjoy it, all of my friends and family pick the current set up--and that is all that matters to me. I find watching movies on the new set up overall more enjoyable. I'd say I enjoy it more than the CRT the vast majority of the time but spot very mildly distracting flaws <2% of the time. Most people never see these flaws and I personally can live with them for the overall experience.
Frankly, the only thing that ticks me off now is misinformation on either side. No body cares much about CRTs anymore, so the misinformation about them is pretty minimal. But, there is much misinformation about digitals among the few remaining CRT die hards. It is sad because it may mislead someone that would have been perfectly happy with a digital or ecstatic with a CIH set up and ends up pretty unhappy trying to set the beast up.
But, I don't care what display chain anyone uses and I'm not trying to sell you anything. I'm only offering one man's opinion and it is worth about as much as any opinion. ;-P And if you think I'm a "CRT hater", search for my AVS posts from 4+ years ago.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| ralpharch wrote: | | Another switcher here. Have my $99 1080p digital on order (ok - add another 9 to that to be accurate (optoma hd20) but the reference was to the cheap digital thread here). |
My two cents for what it is worth. None of these low end Optomas impress me. I would find a used high-end DC 720p PJ that was bright like the Marantz VP12s4 before grabbing one of these. It will have image quality that blows the HD20 away--trust me on this one. Honestly, even my HD7100 which you can find used for under $500 will beat this guy in overall image quality. Resolution isn't everything and even less if you are doing CIH and watching alot of scope content.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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