CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

VideoGrabber · Joined: 09 Apr 2006 Posts: 933 Location: Michigan

SC,
> I've got slight geometric distortion (damn you Sony!) that bugs the crap out of me, I've got a little waviness on the left side of the screen/raster at 1080p, and of course sharpness is far inferior to any 1080p digital. <

I may be wrong, but it sounds to me like at least 2 of your main 3 gripes with your G70 (the last 2) are a result of pushing it to 1080p, which is beyond its bandwidth limit. IIRC, you tested and eliminated both 1080i and 720p because the scan lines are too obvious to you at your close viewing position.

But I'm wondering if you've tried either something more attainable between 720-1080p (coupled with AAS on scope, to get more out of the bandwidth you have), or 1080i @96Hz with dot-shape tuning to help improve fill? Or if you want to keep the 1080p, have you tried 48Hz on films to see if you're OK with the flicker? All of these will give you a sharper image, and minimize distortions that your PJ can't compensate for when it's pushed too far.

Lastly, while CIH is hard to do optimally on a CRT PJ, some have found that CIA makes a nice compromise, that helps preserve the dynamic of scope vs. everything else... while retaining a single seating position that's good for both.

**AnalogRocks** · Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:50 pm Post subject:

VideoGrabber · Joined: 09 Apr 2006 Posts: 933 Location: Michigan

Jeremy,
> I can't stand seeing pixels <

One of the things on the Panny 3000 and 4000 that these guys are talking about is that they have an internal defocusing filter that smooths things out just enough that pixels are NOT visible, without sacrificing image sharpness. The ironic downside to this is that they're harder to focus, because there is no "pixel snap in" to observe. Also, the focus is motorized, and tends to overshoot, so for best results you need to be at the screen and spend some time in a back and forth to nail it precisely.

Short answer is that some manufacturers are aware of that problem, and pixels shouldn't be an issue on some of the newer digitals.

**AnalogRocks** · Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:13 am Post subject:

ecrabb · Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:41 am Post subject:

Umm... That "slightly out of focus" image is sharper than the sharpest 9" CRT, Jeremy. Not only that, but the pixels are so small, that unless you're standing WAY closer to the screen than you'd ever watch from, you aren't going to see any pixels. I watched both setups at my typical 1.2-1.5x screen widths, and I couldn't see any pixels. None. Zilch. Pixels or screen door are not an issue any more with 1080p projectors.

As for the "fade to grey", please. It's getting so good as to not be an issue. Yeah, my G70 has better black level and on/off, but a $2000 AE4000 kicks my G70's ass in every other department including brightness, ANSI contrast, white level, sharpness, size, weight, noise, and maintenance.

Besides, if you're doing perfect, full fade to blacks, you're also crushing your shadows. Even with gamma boost, you can't get the blacks perfectly. The way my G70 is set up, with gamma boost set so I can see 2-3 IRE, I can only drop brightness down to where it takes my eyes about 3-4 seconds from a full fade-to-black before the screen doesn't look completely black anymore (I can see the background light). In comparison, it only takes a second or two for my eyes to see the digital black - so no, it's not as good - But again, it's much better than you think, or you're making it out to be.

Seriously... I get that you like CRT - I do, too. But, unless you've seen one in person, the new digitals are WAY better than you think they are. Go see one set up well on a nice scope screen, and then we'll talk.

SC

**AnalogRocks** · Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:46 am Post subject:

ecrabb · Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:30 am Post subject:

VideoGrabber · Joined: 09 Apr 2006 Posts: 933 Location: Michigan

> SO I get to view a fade to grey slightly out of focus image. <

I'm confused. What part of "without sacrificing image sharpness" did I not make clear?

You don't ever want the edges of pixels to be visible, because they represent an overlaid grid that was not in the original image. Thus they are high-frequency noise. Read up on some of Bjoern Roy's stuff over at AVS from a couple years ago. He presented a pretty clear analysis.

So cleaning up these artifacts, as Panasonic has done, is NOT making the image "slightly out of focus" at all. In fact, by removing the spatial noise from the edges, they actually allow more detail to be exposed.

**AnalogRocks** · Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:44 pm Post subject:

perisoft · Joined: 29 Aug 2007 Posts: 2920 Location: Ithaca, NY

VideoGrabber · Joined: 09 Apr 2006 Posts: 933 Location: Michigan

Peri wrote:
> If you're using an HTPC and parametric 21-point gamma with VideoEqualizer, you can. <

That sort of infinite slope FTB is also available on non-HTPC units with parametric gamma, like the Lumagens. Or the VP50, using its 1024-point LUT mappings (non-stock).

Spanky Ham · Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 5643 Location: Comedy Central

I know I have beat this dead horse, but CRT still has the advantage in on/off and motion resolution. I know I stated a couple of years ago that 20k to 1 on/off would be enough for all but the most diehard CRTers. After seeing the latest JVCs at Cedia, I think I would have no problem living with their on/off. While motion is still an issue for digitals, it didn't bother me with most of the digitals that I saw. I will be interested to see if there are any non-dlp LED pjs at Cedia this year. If JVC came out with a LED pj, then I would probably be looking to move to that. Of course, if a LCD pj were to come out with LED at $2k, then I might just have to go that route.

AR,
I agree with what Peri said. Just admit that you like the technology over any superiority. I bet a lot of CRTers would be more than impressed if they were to see a properly set up JVC.

**AnalogRocks** · Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:59 am Post subject:

WanMan · Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 10270

mp20748 · Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:34 pm Post subject:

WanMan · Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 10270

I'm not knocking CRTs on anything. I am saying what probably drew most of us is the uncanny ability to have such a nice low black level and naturally high On/Off CR compared to everything else on the planet. If sharpness was someone's #1 priority then then they are not looking at a CRT's primary strengths.

BTW, I detest pixel structure. I detest how some digital technologies trade off certain picture quality aspects to attempt to do what a CRT projector can do. We all have our preferences. I just think sharpness isn't a CRT fan's #1 aspect.

Sunstone · Joined: 11 Aug 2006 Posts: 44 Location: Rockledge Fl.

just tried a sony hw15 and it was Sharp until motion happened .good for movies and tv but if you a gamer , it sharp until you turn to shoot someone .everything stays slightly blurry when you pan left to right but if the movment is toward you it's not as bad.so i pick crt for sharpness ,stays sharp when i move fast or slow!

km987654 · Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:43 am Post subject:

I just love it when you guys get into this. No matter how many times it happens!!

WanMan · Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 10270

Why would it matter if the motion was from a game or not? Sounds more like the relative pan speed than the source.

ecrabb · Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:09 pm Post subject: