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Bruce 09
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 747
Location: Kamloops BC, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Now, to be blunt, I assume that we're all here because a well-maintained CRT projector is capable of better results for the money than an LCD/SXRD/LCOS/DLP one, at the cost of being the size and weight of a transatlantic cargo ship and requiring regular maintenance. Would this assumption be correct. |
Yes somewhat correct. That and the fact that these show up in dumpsters and people run into them while scrounging around is also a determining factor of CRT ownership here .
| Quote: | | The reason I'm interested is twofold. First, CRT projection was all the rage when I was forming an adolescent interest in such things, and I'm greatly dismayed that modern projectors don't have that vivid multi-coloured porthole array on the front (go on, stand close to the screen! Make a rainbow-coloured rabbit shadow!). Nostalgia is a wonderful thing. |
Come on I call BS. You must still have fun while doing rainbow shadow puppets on Dlp machines.
| Quote: | Secondly, though, I'm now involved in the film and TV industry, and this is an area where we have a bit of a problem with display devices. Until recently, nobody was doing critical work on anything other than a CRT monitor, because (despite constant manufacturer attempts to improve things) no LCD technology has nearly high enough contrast ratio. Now Sony and co. have stopped making CRTs, there's an issue with exactly how you grade an image.
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So be saying this I would Imagine you have more CRT experience and Knowledge of the principles of CRT projection than most people here, so what opinion are you trying to get here?? "CRT Projection for critical colour work"
IF you have used CRT for critical colour work before so why are you perplexed now if they will suit your application . ?
What are most of your colleagues using now specifically for critical colour work ? are you trying to get all of your colleagues to switch back to CRT ??
| Quote: | Secondly, though, I'm now involved in the film and TV industry, and this is an area where we have a bit of a problem with display devices. Until recently, nobody was doing critical work on anything other than a CRT monitor,
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More importantly if you are involved in the Film and TV industry what are their opinions ?
What do your colleagues with years and years of Professional CRT experience think ????
| Quote: | No, I'm not "trolling". I'm asking the questions I know are difficult for this technology, perhaps with a bit of tongue-in-cheek humour at the expense of the keenness for this older gear that is being displayed, but definitely tempered with an appreciation for the work that's going into getting the best out of it. I'm afraid the rainbow-coloured rabbit shadow trick will always be a favourite of mine! Seriously, the fact that you now have two people looking seriously at this gear for grading work is quite a compliment.
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What are you exactly trying to do ?
Did your Buddy ever further look into CRT for his work or go check out physically where they are still being used professionally ???
Are you curious enough to go physically check out where you can see them in action for "critical colour work" you would learn more about whether it would suit your mysterious purpose than here !!
Beside then you could relive your favorite "rainbow-coloured rabbit shadow trick"
| Quote: | The reason Robert was asking for 12-16fL is simply because that's the SMPTE spec for screen brightness,
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EXACTLY, there are many ways to get that brightness though. what specifically are you looking to do with a CRT FP ?
Bruce
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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Here is some reading material:
https://www.curtpalme.com/forum_archived/viewtopic.php@t=9168.html
CRTs are mature technology (MILFs if you will:D). The power supply is probably as good as it gets. Actually, I think this is tse's specialty.
If you went with a CRT, then I would recommend a Torus screen if you need brightness uniformity.
| ecrabb wrote: | The reason ANSI contrast on CRT's is inferior to digital is because with any brightly lit phosphor, some percentage of the emitted light bounces off the back of the lens and illuminates the rest of the tube face... and raises overall black level in the process. With an air-coupled projector, the effect shows up as large "halos" or balls of light around small, bright objects. It can be pretty distracting and even quite obnoxious depending on the source material. With a liquid-coupled projector, instead of well-defined halos, the reflected light is reflected off the convex C-element and spread over the entire tube face. So, halos are essentially eliminated, and overall ANSI contrast is reduced. It's better than an AC-projector, but still not like a good digital projector.
SC |
On an AC pj, the light is bouncing off the surface of the glass nearest the face of the tube not the lens. A good illustration is in the 3M white paper.
I agree on the halos being distracting. I believe that if one masked the inside of the tube chamber then ANSI might be increased. When I told Scott this, he looked at me like I was nuts. OK, he already thought that, but this just poured gas on the fire.
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Hfuy
Joined: 14 Mar 2009
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | what opinion are you trying to get here?? |
Well, more or less what I have got - information about blooming and a warning about lower output at high average picture level, none of which I've come across before.
Sorry if it's a problem.
P
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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the best thing is to post where your located, and if someone there has a nice 9 inch set with new tubes is near you they can let you see it for yourself. Then you can make a better decision . Like if you think you could do a better set up , or if it is ok as is and it will or will not suit your needs.
But here is one testament to this old Tech. On the AVSForum, the Owner of AV Science and the forum Alan Gouger recently decided to revisit
CRT's. he purchased a 2003 Marquee 9500LC ultra with modified Focus Coils that allow it to go to much higher Contrast ratios with out Blooming.
he has seen almost every Digital PJ out there, he even recently had the flagship Dark Chip 4 Sim3 projector that retails for over 47K. He told me
the marquee Blew it away Color Wise, even after a color calibration. This was a few months ago. I recently talked to him on the Phone this weekend
And he also has a Rs2 or 20 i can not remember, but he said he will watch that in the shop then he'll go down to his own theater and fire up the marquee and
he still is amazed at how awesome the marquee is. And he gets frustrated now because its his Business to sell Digital PJ's... and he is having a hard time
trying to be salesman knowing they are not the BEST Pj he could sell them. I assume he feels like he's cheating them, he never said this to me directly
but you can tell thats what he is thinking and how much he praises the CRT.
So just Go look at one, your opinion may differ , but until you go see for yourself listening to stories like the one i just told is all you'll have to rely on and like somebody else said we are fanboys of CRT's here.
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
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Hfuy
Joined: 14 Mar 2009
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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I'm in London, but I'll be in LA for a bit next month. Would love to look at a good example.
-H
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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Ahh london there is a chap in the outskirts by the name of MadMrH (andy) he actually is doing something a bit different with CRT's he is Blending two crt PJ's(Barco's). Using the TV-One Video processors. Blending is desired for Scope movies as it uses the entire face of the tube thus giving more light output for that source material. If you can contact him him i am sure if his theater is up and running he'd love to show you it.
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
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Zebu Fellenz
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 2567
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Hfuy wrote: | I'm in London, but I'll be in LA for a bit next month. Would love to look at a good example.
-H |
I believe there is a forum member here that is in London and has a 9" Ampro. I'll post if I remember his forum ID 
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Bruce 09
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 747
Location: Kamloops BC, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Hfuy wrote: | | Quote: | | what opinion are you trying to get here?? |
Well, more or less what I have got - information about blooming and a warning about lower output at high average picture level, none of which I've come across before.
Sorry if it's a problem.
P |
No problem at all
But if you are looking to make rainbow shadow puppets and are going to be in L.A I can give you a few places to go and check out .
With any luck I am going to be down there next month! Maybe we can go on field trip together .
Bruce
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Hfuy wrote: | | Is this dimming less bad if you simply don't drive it as hard? Could I stack two of these things one atop the other and get around it that way? |
Sure. That's an approach that some around here with deeper pockets have used using 2 projectors. Either blending (each projector only paints 1/2 the image) or stacking (each projector paints the entire image). More complexity but with phenominal light output with the same great contrast ratio.
| Quote: | | Kal, for what it's worth, I read your calibration article, and having worked for a company which produces a calibration system for the industry, it seems you're doing pretty much the same thing for the same goals. |
Yup! The goal should always be to reproduce what the director and DP intended no matter how badly the manufacturers try and screw up the image. 
Kal
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km987654
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 2874
Location: Australia
TV/Projector: Barco BG809s
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | Ahh london there is a chap in the outskirts by the name of MadMrH (andy) he actually is doing something a bit different with CRT's he is Blending two crt PJ's(Barco's). Using the TV-One Video processors. Blending is desired for Scope movies as it uses the entire face of the tube thus giving more light output for that source material. If you can contact him him i am sure if his theater is up and running he'd love to show you it.
Athanasios |
Not sure how reliable Andy would be. I recently tried to purchase some parts from him and it was all go until I agreed on his price and then he just doesn't respond to any PMs. Good Luck.
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km987654
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 2874
Location: Australia
TV/Projector: Barco BG809s
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | | I agree on the halos being distracting. I believe that if one masked the inside of the tube chamber then ANSI might be increased. When I told Scott this, he looked at me like I was nuts. OK, he already thought that, but this just poured gas on the fire. |
Great Idea but not sure how you would do this with a moving image!! Perhaps a C element made from some material that does not reflect light back at the tube.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| km987654 wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: | Ahh london there is a chap in the outskirts by the name of MadMrH (andy) he actually is doing something a bit different with CRT's he is Blending two crt PJ's(Barco's). Using the TV-One Video processors. Blending is desired for Scope movies as it uses the entire face of the tube thus giving more light output for that source material. If you can contact him him i am sure if his theater is up and running he'd love to show you it.
Athanasios |
Not sure how reliable Andy would be. I recently tried to purchase some parts from him and it was all go until I agreed on his price and then he just doesn't respond to any PMs. Good Luck. |
Hmmm, know he had a large installation to do and also he had some health problems.... when was this deal suppose to happen?
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
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km987654
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 2874
Location: Australia
TV/Projector: Barco BG809s
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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It was about a month back now. I wanted to purchase some softedge boards he has had for some time. After some negotiations he said he believed that a certain price was fair and I PMed him to I agreed but there was no response. I PMed him several times after that but there has been no response at all. If he has changed his mind OK but no response is not the way to do things. Anyway if he still wishes to sell tell him to message or mail me if you can contact him.
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donaldk
Joined: 17 Jun 2008
Posts: 308
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| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:24 am Post subject: |
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Over on AVS there was a simillar thread going on a number of months ago, a guy from Eastern Europe was looking to add a relatively inexpensive grading projection solution to his regular monitor based set-up. Indeed JVC plus one of the known closed loop colourmanagegment systems (Filmlight?), wich he already had, was the solution he went with or said he would go with, as the JVC have extende colourgamut to work with the CMS a working profile would be practically guaranteed. Monthly calibration, more like daily, but at lest at the start of a new project.
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Hfuy
Joined: 14 Mar 2009
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:02 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | With any luck I am going to be down there next month! Maybe we can go on field trip together |
I might even take you up on that!
Filmlight's Truelight system is, in the broadest possible sense, the same sort of idea as the colour management systems discussed on this site, albeit at lab grade and with a lot of additional features. As you say, though, it's closed-loop, and they can do analysis of film stocks and laser film recorders. I've seen calibrated results projected side by side with 35mm film and it's absolutely astonishing (and this was on a JVC D-ILA HD2K projection, which is... LCOS, no?).
As regards masking the inside of the tube area - well, the inside of the gate assembly on a film camera is painted black throughout to avoid exactly the same problem in reverse. The issue on CRT projectors appears to be similar except that the imager is quite close to the size of the lens, so anything that bounces back off the lens will hit something reflective. If the lenses were 18" across, perhaps it wouldn't be so bad, but the things are bulky enough as it is, so...
-H
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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