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perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2920
Location: Ithaca, NY
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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Yep, it's the damned lenses. I put up a 1080p48 test pattern - smudge city on screen; tarp as a shack in the tube. Grrr! 
So, looks like I gotta save my pennies. For the moment, I've played around, and it looks like the best these lenses will resolve cleanly is 1440x900. 
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Last edited by perisoft on Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:26 am; edited 2 times in total
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| schmoe wrote: | | FWIW, the rankings list on this site was a huge help to me. I think there's a tendancy to treat the list as gospel which I don't think is the intent of the list. That said, without it I would have been completely lost. And then me and every other aspiring n00b would be asking you guys on the forum for your opinions and we'd have nothing but bitchy threads like this. The list is a "necessary evil", IMO. |
Exactly. Like SC said earlier, the list is just a jumping-off or starting point. If you nothing about CRT projectors it will give you a pretty good idea where that specific projector sits in the grand scheme of things. That's why I put the list together.
The old timers probably remember how pretty much 1/2 the questions on any forum was about "which projector is better? X or Y?". As soon as this list was put up, the questions went away, or they became more intelligent questions like "Do you find that having LC is important?"
Kal
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | That was one of the things that blew my mind when I went from the 1271 to the G70... I had both the G70 and 1271 set up so I could pic mute each one and A-B... I watched various material, all on BD. The thing that really struck me was the three-dimensionality that the G70 had that the 1271 lacked... The depth the image had on the G70 was amazing. When I really analyzed it, it was two things: 1) The LC optics in the G70 smoked the 1271 so contrast was superior. Blacks were blacker, and colors were more vivid. 2) There was massive amounts more detail. As you pointed out, where the difference really stands out visually was in those big wide shots... background detail.
The 1271 didn't reveal much of the detail in the background, so the image seemed "flatter" - not just as in contrast, but actually as though the depth was compressed... As, in less contrast between sharper in-focus subjects and out-of-focus subjects gave the impression of less depth. The G70 OTOH, because the sharp things were sharper in contrast to the out-of-focus subjects, it actually gave more depth to the image - literally.
Seeing the two machines together and being able to flip back and forth was a real epiphany for me in that it was the first time I understood what Mike P was really getting at when he talked about "background detail". It was the first time I thought of a projected image description as "3D" being more than just videophile hyperbole... it was real. |
Exactly what I noticed when I went from a Barco 800 to a Barco Cine 8 Onyx - I had both of mine running at the same time too. Almost an identical upgrade too as my before/after projectors are pretty close in performance to your before/after projectors.
Kal
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1031
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 657
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="perisoft"] | ecrabb wrote: | You have a Graphics 808s, right? What lenses?
SC |
Yeah, g808s, sony tubes, etc. I've got PT65s on there now; I had HD8s but saw some photos which suggested the 65s had somewhat better focus. The 65s also let me use optical color filters at the rear of the lenses, rather than gels on the tube surface - an A/B on that confirmed that there was a big advantage.
quote]
I remember it was Spotmactic who compaired those lenses (PT65 / HD8) and he noticed that pt65 was sharper. I instelled my old 1272 half year ago to friend and noticet that somethig is not right and swapped those pt65 to HD8`s and Bingo sharper picture..maybe there is variation between sets.
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benareeno
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1614
Location: ottawa, canada
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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HD8's will show 1080i with ease...I have a BD808s as well...although it has Panasonic tubes, so maybe that's a difference, I don't know. How do you know it doesn't resolve 1080i? It's one thing to say it doesn't do something...but how do we know what you're talking about?
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1031
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 657
Location: Finland
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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In my case Benareeno, all I can tell you is that BOTH my PT-65's and the HD-8's I had... Neither one would even clearly show 1080i scan lines... on an 8' screen with about a 10' throw. That's all I can tell you. I'd chalk it up to a bad set of lenses, but my HD-8's and the PT-65's were apparently identical in performance. The lenses and the projectors they came from were both nice, clean machines so it's not like they were damaged in some way.
Question for you: On a 1-10 scale, 1 being invisible even standing at the screen and 10 being obvious from say, 1x screen width, how obvious are 1080i scan lines on your HD-8's? I'd say mine were somewhere between a 1 and a 2. Closer to 1.
SC
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benareeno
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1614
Location: ottawa, canada
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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again...test pattern talk. I do not engage in test pattern talk. I will discuss the picture as a whole when it's playing movies (which is the intention of owning a projector). I will not put up patterns and then feel bad because I can't see scan lines at the screen. Maybe I can, maybe I can't...but I have a nice sharp pic at 720p and 1080i.
I've seen Marquee's with and without HD144/145's...nice color difference. But apparent sharpness on screen with video material, negligible diffference. That's not to say there isn't one...but it's not significant in my opinion. Again, if you put up some test patterns and go up and scrutinize the screen, there's probably a difference. Watching movies from the seating position? Very much the same.
Others I've spoken to weren't all that thrilled with 145's on a Marquee...it's all subjective.
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perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2920
Location: Ithaca, NY
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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That's basically the kind of pattern I'm using (though mine is from nokia monitor test). Mine looks about that good at 1440x900p48. At 1080p48/60/whatever, the 1-on-1-off pattern is just gray. Well.. green. You know. 
And to ben... maybe it's test pattern talk, but in my case, I'm pretty damn sure there's a significant difference when 1920x1080 is resolving at 960x540 instead!
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| benareeno wrote: | again...test pattern talk. I do not engage in test pattern talk. I will discuss the picture as a whole when it's playing movies (which is the intention of owning a projector). I will not put up patterns and then feel bad because I can't see scan lines at the screen. Maybe I can, maybe I can't...but I have a nice sharp pic at 720p and 1080i.
Others I've spoken to weren't all that thrilled with 145's on a Marquee...it's all subjective. |
No, it's not all subjective. In fact, the point of test patterns is to HAVE something objective with which to compare projectors, lenses, mods, and sources. From my perspective (and I think many others would share my opinion), "test pattern talk" as you call it, isn't meant to make anybody feel bad about their projectors. It isn't about dick-waving for some of us, either. Some of us care because it's a hobby, because we're interested in the best pic we can get, and because we're curious...
Look, I'm the first person to step forward and say, "by all means, buy what you can afford and for Pete's sake, don't worry about anybody else's equipment and just enjoy what you have." But that doesn't mean we can't engage in meaningful discussion on how to make our projectors and viewing experiences better, or perhaps the best it can be! And how exactly do you do that if you have no objective references beyond "I have a nice sharp pic at 720p and 1080i" or worse yet, "It's all subjective". By that logic, it's silly for us all to bother with these big, noisy CRT projectors when a $999 720p digital is more than adequate. I don't mean any of this to offend, but I can tell you I thought I had a pretty damn nice looking picture off my 1271 at 1080i... until I saw the picture off my G70.
Now, does that mean I enjoyed watching movies on my 1271 any less or that anybody with a similar machine should feel bad? Hell no! I thought I'd be disappointed in my theater after I went to Art's meet the first time and saw his G90 stack! Nope. Just made me appreciate my HT even more, knowing what he spent on his. Same thing the next year when I saw his 14'-wide scope screen with the expensive Sim2 DLP... While it was absolutely stunning to watch a movie there, instead of being disappointed when i got home, I actually appreciated my own theater even more knowing that Art probably spent about as much on his Stewart Cinecurve screen as what I spent on my entire room, furniture and all the equipment combined! Heck, I probably didn't spend even THAT much!
Seriously, though... I really don't mean to be an ass, so don't take it that way.... But there is a middle ground between obsessing over 1-on/1-off patterns and not even enjoying movies because you can't stop searching the image for flaws (there are those here), and the opposite end of the spectrum that says "it's all subjective". Personally, I love movies. I have no problem forgetting about the projector or any techie stuff and just enjoying a good movie. But, I'm also interested in learning and understanding more about this stuff - it's really the one hobby that I enjoy learning new stuff about. I love the art AND the science of film, movie-making, and the theater experience.
SC
Last edited by ecrabb on Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mark_A_W
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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SC is 100% right.
Without an objective test, and the 1:1 test patterns are the most suitable test, there is no point of reference.
Also, I find the incessant screenshot threads completely pointless. They show more about the camera than the projector. There is only one screen shot that matters, the closeup of 1:1 lines.
The 1:1 lines test pattern doesn't show the improvement of LC. There's no screenshot that objectively reveals that. A proper ANSI contrast measurement is required.
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yonexsp
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 311
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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Which 1:1 test pattern should we all agree to use?
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Mark_A_W
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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I think the ecrabb one is fine.
SC can post it up, I don't have it here at work.
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Zebu Fellenz
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 2567
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| yonexsp wrote: | | Which 1:1 test pattern should we all agree to use? |
I use the one that comes with the free nokia monitor test. It allows you to run the test white on black or black on white.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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Heh heh.... I'm at work, too and don't have it with me, either. I'm not positive, but I think years ago, I made the one Mike Parker is still using now. I mentioned all using a standard image in a thread here or at AVS years ago, but it didn't get far because not everybody uses HTPC, not everybody runs 1080p (or even 1080i), etc. If nobody coughs it up before I get home, I'll upload it here.
SC
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:01 am Post subject: |
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Test pattern
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ronholm
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Posts: 12111
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| Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| benareeno wrote: | | It's pointless to tirelessly debate projectors within a certain category...that's what I was getting at. |
It is not a waste for ya'll to debate about projectors like this.. like SC said the list is for the guys that know nothing.. When I came to this site with my lowly VPH 1000 Sony that list was invaluable, and inspired an interest for me that I didn't know I had (much to the dismay of many)
When I saw the list I didn't assume it was hard fact.. It is broke into sections and I would assume certain features are a given and going to make certain projectors "better" but I understand there is no free lunch.. so as you climb the scale certain projectors must make certain tradeoff's ect...
I love reading these threads because when yall get fired up discussing which projector is better... even though there may be not point to it all.. I learn more about the sport reading these types of thread than any other...
thanks 
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:28 am Post subject: |
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| ronholm wrote: | | I came to this site with my lowly VPH 1000 Sony that list was invaluable, and inspired an interest for me that I didn't know I had (much to the dismay of many) |
Thanks for posting that file, Mike. Searching on my old home desktop machine, I also just figured out I've had the pattern hosted in my "avs" directory since, ohhh... August of 2006. 
If anybody wants, I can also tweak a version for 720p, or any other common resolution for that matter if anybody wants to see it with scaling at some certain resolution. It wouldn't be directly comparable to one running 1080p, but if two guys running 720p wanted to compare notes or whatever...
SC
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: |
Thanks for posting that file, Mike.
SC |
Hey, it's the CLEANEST test pattern out there, so it's always in reach here.
Not all PC test patterns are clean. Most (if you look at them close enough) have a bit of smearing. And that make for not the best and tightest lines when evaluating at 1080P.
tse produced another clean pattern, but it's only the six part group in the center.
Not sure what's going on with most of those patterns out there. The NEC is the worse of them all, stay way from that one..
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NewbieDAN
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 319
Location: Bunbury Western Australia
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| Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:13 am Post subject: |
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I've also found the list valuable as a 'beginner'. Every projector I've owned I've bought without seeing another example to compare it against. Basically there are pretty slim pickings over here on the West coast of Australia. I've gone from Sony VPH-1000 to Sony VPH-G70 to Barco Graphics1209s, each time purchased upon inspection only. I can understand people being obsessive with their particular brand of projector and talking it up etc.....It does take time to learn and assess the merits of any projector, the more you set it up, the better understanding of it's characteristics and strenghths/weaknesses, all leading to a better picture. There's always another teir of performance to investigate, flapping, astig, greyscale, gamma...etc. The advice I've gotten on this forum is an invaluable resource.
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