CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

[JustGreg]

Thanks for the reply Athanasios. Yeah so I blew away almost all of my one day a week off trying to get this thing up and running right again with no joy. I still have a very soft image with a strong red ringing or halo around the grid lines which makes the image painful to watch (blurry-ish). In Play Station Home I noticed that now as it's loading the timings are affected. They just did an update so not sure if that's the problem or not. I haven't connected any other source than that such as my Panny S97 DVDP.

So what I did:

I swapped the green and red plugs at the Vertical Board as suggested earlier in the post. I couldn't tell if the problem followed because the grid was now misconverged...eg, red, green, and blue lines replaced the white line. So I returned them to their proper orientation.

Then I replaced the HDM with a known good one. Same problem. With the replacement HDM I noticed a judder across all tubes. Original one reinstalled.
Then I cleaned all card and pin connectors, pulled and cleaned all chips on all main and daughter boards...same problem.
Then I replaced the CLM...same problem. I reinstalled the original.

I took the GammaX out of the loop and tried RGBHV with the GammaX (I need it to transcode) and then the moome v1 via HDMI to DVI adapter. (Before the problem(s) I was using the GammaX to RGBHV). No matter the way I fed the pj; same soft image with heavy red overtones.

Next I performed a complete initialization and nulled items not effected by doing so.

Then I replaced the 4 pole CPC's on the green and blue with 6 pole mags. I already had a 6 pole on the red.

I checked P14 voltage...It's sitting right around 6.4 volts.

I checked the HV leads for leaks....none detected.

After completing BB's Magnetics Guide, internal frequency at number 2; Retrace Long, Sync Fast, the grid lines were crisp with distinct lines of seperation in the lines and letters. (sync lines??). All bets are off once the PS3 feed is applied. The focus for what seems to be all tubes is lost, especially trying to read multicolored chat text in a semi transparent popup window. I tried 720p and 1080i with no luck whereas before the problem arose I could switch to that memory and go with no problems such as image softness or sync issues.

After all that...still no joy regardless of cabling and connection scheme. I went back and checked flare and noticed the blobs are small and tight at the top of the screen and progressively fatter to the bottom. ????WTF? Now I'm truly lost. Keystone isn't the problem...tried that. The thing is, I haven't made any physical changes to the pj alignment or screen. The pj just simply lost it's ability to focus. And nope...I didn't try my spare Focus Board. I was going to but Mama interrupted me for dinner and I forgot all about it when I got back down there.
I'll try that tomorrow after work but I don't think that's the problem. There's definately something amiss with the red tube that's adding a verrry faint tinge to anything but black (and that too I suppose but I'm concerned with white reproduction right now). Internal pattern all white grid lines have a reddish halo surrounding them...some zones worse than others. No amount of convergence can fix it as the red lines are wider than the other two it's supposed to play nice with.

At this point I'm too pooped to head back down there so I sit here wondering if the problem can be power supplies, rear panel boards (of which I have NO spares to swap in) or something entirely out of my league. I have a spare red tube and a complete set of coils and yokes. The spare red is waffling around at the 6-7 rating mark but should work OK.

Oh, G2 for blue is high...it ended up right around 73. Too bad too; the face is minty looking. But again, I don't think the blue is the issue as the blue grid lines are the best I've ever gotten them. I just have to drive the tube harder for the same results is all.

Any ideas folks? I don't have much time anymore as I stated so this is extremely frustrating. All I want to do is sit on my ass and relax damnit! Is that asking too much?

[Nashou66]

Yes , Id swap out the focus board. Did you try to swap yoke cables on the focus from red to green and see what happens?


Athansios

[draganm]

[JustGreg]

Hey Athanasios...you spelled your name wrong in that last post. You can set it up so you don't have to type it every time ya know.

I didn't swap the yoke cables. I couldn't find the old post I had printed that outlined the cables that can be swapped to troubleshoot so erred on the side of better judgement, but I'll try that now. Just so I'm clear, the cables in question are the ones going to the coils with the 3 wingnuts correct?

I have no idea why I didn't swap the F board or the neckboard for that matter...tired and brain dead after 6 hours of tearing it down and putting it back together I guess. Got those on the list for tonight/tomorrow/whatever the hell time continuum I'm operating in... when I get home from the next work evolution. I sure hope it's the F board or the neckboard. If it's anything on the rear heatsink I'll have to learn how to use the ESR tester I built a year ago.

When I get that done we'll revisit this post with the results. Have you done any work with Focus boards Athanasios? They're relatively inexpensive but given the sparseness of the components it doesn't seem overly daunting to repair...famous last words eh?!

draganm...I noticed the different sizes too but didn't mention it as I'd already corrected that on mine. Took me forever to find my set of non conducting tools to get it done too.

Quick question...how 'normal' is it to have sagging horizontal grid lines after a full reset? It seems to me additional strain could be relieved from the electronics if those lines were straight(er) across after a full reinitialization...or do I have something wrong? The green seems to be affected by it less than B&R for whatever reason. Does the green circuitry get extra components for this because it's the color needed for the initial setup menu's?

How much of a role do the power supplies play in focus? I know they obviously come into play but I guess I should phrase the question as, can a bad or failing power supply contribute to focus problems?

I'm tired and babbling as usual so I'll leave it at that for now. These sound like newbie questions on the surface but to me they represent new experiences. My 8500 has been a trooper for the last 3 or 4 years so I never had need to ask before.

Thanks again guys!

[JustGreg]

OK...so... I picked up last night where I left off the...other night. Here's what I did and what remains for another time cycle when I have more energy.

First I swapped the Focus board. No Go

Then I swapped the cables between G&R...red still won't crisp up.

Then I replaced the 4 pole with a 6 pole (did I do that last night or the night before...anyway)..strange results. More to follow on this.

I replaced the HDM with the newer verion that was in it at the time red went south. Of course no change.

I found a bad coax to the green cable at the VIM while swapping the G&R. The ground ring had come unsoldered from years of yanking on it (WASN'T ME!) Green coax cable replaced whilst in there.

I DIDN'T swap the sweep yoke cables. As stated before I hope like hell the driver board isn't the problem as I don't have that part. I don't see why I can't (swap the cables) but decided to check here before doing so.
When that test is negative (if it's OK to do it) I think I can definatively say the problem is with the heater, or the phosphor has reached EOL, or the electron gun itself has failed.

I also need to correct my earlier post regarding P14 voltage...it's actually at 6.23. One of the components in the 'fix' must be below advertised value. I'll replace it/them and get it back to spec. Is the difference worth the effort?

I didn't move the red HV cable to another spot on the block or replace it (or both) with another one. I couldn't come up with a good enough arguement (with myself at 5:30am...16 hrs since waking the day before) to justify that as the cause. But...feel free to calibrate me on this.

I also didn't swap the VIM for the same reason as above and simply because I'd already swapped the G&R coax with no resulting shuddering sigh of gratification.

Back to the CPC swap and Focus coil swap. With this combination of new/old/questionable parts I can't get a tight round blob for the life of me. I can get tennis ball sized ones but when focus is tightened (electronically) the bright dot is on the periphery like a moon orbiting a hazy planet. When I rotate and twiddle the rings the best sharpness I can get results in a screen full of Nike logos. The triangular (guitar pick) ring (middle ring) does not thing to correct it either. To be complete about my observations I need to also add that to get the grid lined up over the top of the G&B I had to physically move the tube to it's most extreme position touching the case. No amount of moving the hocus (non)focus assembly would bring it into overlay. Keep in mind...I'd already done a complete automagic reinitialization and manual null.

Any more thoughts before I buy a light cannon? (KIDDING!!)

[JustGreg]

*Shameless bump alert*

Nothing? I'm stumped so any new suggestions or confirmation of testing sweep yoke cable swaps is cool.

I promise if you feed me for a day I'll learn how to fish for myself.

[Nashou66]

OI would try to swap out the HV cables , green to red and put the red on green. It might be a bad splitter. I have never came across one but you never know. Also the 6.23 heater voltage is too low it will not give you the proper brightness, and it might affect focus but not sure. I am only sure low HV will not allow a tube to focus well, this I found out on my own when testing a Thomas 9 inch tube with the lower voltage 8000 power supply(34kv).


On your CPC sounds like you might have the guitar pic ring as you call it actually be a dead magnet, some sets where made that way.

I did not catch if you swapped out VNB's?

Athanasios

[JustGreg]

Thanks for the repy Athanasios!
I did swap the the VNB for another one with the CL449 chipset. I picked up the parts (again!) for the heater voltage. I'll get that done tonight. I didn't know the heater voltage could effect brightness so I learned that at least.

I'll replace the HV cable to the tube. While I'm that far forward on the tube I'll remove the remainder of the hot glue Christie piled in front of the sweep yoke and see if I can't get rid of any gap between it and the bell. It's pretty much the same as the others but who knows...can't hurt to try.

You didn't say if I could swap the sweep yoke cable with the green. I'm going to give it a go after I replace the HV cable and try to move the sweep yoke closer to the bell. I whipped up so 304 stainless all thread rods and fixtures to hold the tubes in place while I swap out the red if it comes to that. That's about all I can think of left to do at this point. I have another stock VIM I guess I can try to. Guess I should try that first as it's the last easy test before digging the guts out of it further.

I'll get back to you with my results. Thanks again!

[Nashou66]

I dont think the H deflection coil would cause your focus issue, its either the focus board,HV, Or tube.

Athanasios

[JustGreg]

OK...I put a little more time into it tonight and replaced the focus coil with yet another one. While I had the CPC mag out I used the colored tabs on the back side of it to null it.

I cleaned the neck of the tube good to remove the old white tape residue (what kind of tape is that so I can replace it?) and re-routed the wires on the heatsink boards. After some alignment I was able to get the grid line shrunk to normal size with just a little flare, and the tube is now in the mid physical position instead of plastered to the inside of the case. Spot size/shape is much better now that I can make effective adjustments. Needs more work but I'll really dial it in later today when I get up.

I stopped tonight when I got tired, but mostly when I realized I still had an issue that I either didn't talk about or hadn't been answered in a previous post...

The 'problem' is with all three tubes. The blobs are progressively smaller from the bottom to the top of the screen, all across the grid. Going on memory, I have ~12 degrees of factory pitch at the pj.Simply put the pj is in a table mount position except flipped over and hung. The base of the pj is bubble level. I'll have to measure again to find out where the pj lens plane is in relation to the center line of the screen. I'll come back with that info later on. My options to raise the screen or lower the pj are extremely limited due to headroom constraints at the screen and unobstructed viewing from the rear riser seating.

Because the screen frame hangs from two all thread rods in a smaller version of UniStrut about a foot out from the wall, I (for some reason I can't recall) decided I needed to have a standoff on each bottom corner secured to the frame, but just resting on the wall to stabilize it all. It was plumb. I removed the standoffs to swing the screen back and forth to alter the pitch but the blobs remained larger from bottom to top.
Keystone is nulled from reinitialization but before I use electronic correction I wanted to make sure I didn't have other physical or electronic issues that need to be addressed first. I'm trying damn hard this setup evolution to use as little electronic correction as possible. The only way I can move on (finally) to recapping and modding is to ensure I have the groundwork in place to do so.

I don't recall 'settling' for the above anomaly when I set it up a couple months ago, and IIRC, Bill Blues Magnetics guide doesn't mention adjusting keystone prior to getting started with spot size/shape. It's possible I simply failed to notice it. (Doubtfull... but possible with my hellish schedule). Any ideas folks?

Thanks everyone for getting me this far. A special thanks to Athanasios... without who's assistance I'd be watching a light cannon right now.

[Nashou66]

Greg, the Progressive increase of dot size from top to bottom really sounds like Scheimphluge . For diagnostic sake can you some how put the tube/lens perfectly parallel with the floor so its perfectly perpendicular to the Screen. The image will move off the screen either top or bottom depending on if you need to lift or lower the rear of the PJ to get it level horizontally. Now see if the dots are evenly sized, if so then you can put it back to how it was and work on Scheimphluge . Does anyone really know how to spell that damn word!! Any how if it still is out of size then it might be the Focus board as far as I can tell.

or you can take a white piece of card board and put it where the dots are larger and move in or out to see where they focus, that is where the plane of the tube to lens is equal and scheimphluge will need adjusting.

Athanasios

[JustGreg]

[Nashou66]

Read here for the voltage checks:

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=109188#109188

Athanasios

[JustGreg]

Thanks for the info Athanasios!

Once again I blew away my day off trying to get this &$#^#(*@! pj to make nice nice. I'm not totally happy with the red flapping at all but after 3 hours of dicking with that one color I threw in the towel when the grid lines were 'good enough'. Something is definately funky with the springs. I may have to grind them down a little for that tube as I've run out of inner lens ring travel and need more but before grinding I'll pull the lens and see if I somehow buggered the red tube adapter plate and 145 mounting.

After physical pj mounting correction I moved on to CPC's and spot size. Then on to astig and convergence. I didn't need that much electronic astig at all.

So I ended up with a nice clean grid and was extremely pleased with my efforts (again, except for the red flapping) UNTIL I fired up the PS3 to pop in a movie to check my work.

I'll be damned if the PS3 didn't change the vertical freqency to 31 and some change at the dashboard. When I pulled up the internal pattern with the PS3 running in the background the red tube had bloomed and was out of convergence a small bit all around the edges about 3-4 grid blocks in. The only thing still converged was the center. The blue had drifted a small amount on the edges too but didn't appear to be blooming like the red tube.
Why can't the B&R tubes behave like the green tube??!!? That sucker is crisp across the entire test grid with very little magnetics work required.
PS Home used to be nice and crisp with extremely sharp scrolling marquees and graphics. *sigh* Just getting into PSHome the pj changes frequencies no less than 3 times!! Once finally in PSHome the vertical is sitting at 34 and some change.

Unless somebody has something else for me to look into then before adding anything else to this thread I'm going to try the PannyS97 DVDP and an Xbox 360 Elite...both at 720P.

Sony just pushed an update to the console a couple weeks ago and that's about when the troubles started. If the problem isn't recreated with those two sources then something is rotten in Japan...like timings and porches they jammed down my throat. I suppose I should connect the PS3 to an LCD monitor with DVI to test it. It's possible my 4 month old PS3 Slim has issues.

This would be alot easier with a service manual. Without it it's like trying to find the corner in around room

What a royal PITA this all is.

[Nashou66]

Greg, I would use a grid pattern from the PS3 , this way the grids will be at the right timings. and No grid Changes should occur.

Athanasios