| Which digital projector would U get if God banished CRTs? |
| LCoS (Sony or JVC) |
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65% |
[ 43 ] |
| LCD |
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4% |
[ 3 ] |
| DLP |
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13% |
[ 9 ] |
| Other |
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16% |
[ 11 ] |
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| Total Votes : 66 |
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:23 am Post subject: |
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Some of us cannot watch DLP. LOL. But thankfully that led me to CRTs.
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Angus_rg
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 339
Location: A planet far, far away..... Baltimore, MD
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | | I would probably go for a good DLP or the JVC. Crabb mentioned the 4k Sony. Next time I drop by VDC to see Scott, I will try to check it out. Scott says it is impressive. Still no black though. |
Expecting blacks in a digital is like expecting to get drunk off of Odouls.
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| Angus_rg wrote: | | Spanky Ham wrote: | | I would probably go for a good DLP or the JVC. Crabb mentioned the 4k Sony. Next time I drop by VDC to see Scott, I will try to check it out. Scott says it is impressive. Still no black though. |
Expecting blacks in a digital is like expecting to get drunk off of Odouls. |
They produce excellent blacks for the blind and when the they are unplugged.
Of course, we say absolute blacks and they say perceived blacks.
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Brian Hampton
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 1173
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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I bought a VW60. That's the SXRD/LCOS option.
I enjoy it a lot.
The G70 parts are not selling so maybe I'll keep them both but when I use the G70 again it won't be the same. I won't ceiling mount it. Maybe I'll build something rear projection for it with zero throw angle. In that case there won't be a hush box or ceiling mount. Then again.... maybe I'll put it in the corner and forget about it. I may indeed use it again someday but only time will tell.
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prover
Joined: 07 Nov 2008
Posts: 166
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| WanMan wrote: | | Some of us cannot watch DLP. LOL. But thankfully that led me to CRTs. |
I'm hoping the LED-driven LCDs will cycle fast enough to make rainbows a non-issue. My brother got an LED rear-projection Samsung and it was better, but the rainbows were still there.
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perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2920
Location: Ithaca, NY
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| WanMan wrote: | | Angus_rg wrote: | | Spanky Ham wrote: | | I would probably go for a good DLP or the JVC. Crabb mentioned the 4k Sony. Next time I drop by VDC to see Scott, I will try to check it out. Scott says it is impressive. Still no black though. |
Expecting blacks in a digital is like expecting to get drunk off of Odouls. |
They produce excellent blacks for the blind and when the they are unplugged.
Of course, we say absolute blacks and they say perceived blacks. |
Then again, if you're trying to replicate the movie theater experience, absolute blacks are a no-no.  Film hasn't got great blacks itself, and every theater I've been in keeps the lights up to some degree, so the PJ's blacks are irrelevant regardless...
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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If I wanted piss poor pill box presentation I'd go with DLP. Otherwise, the whole idea of doing this in the home to to have a better than pill box experience.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| WanMan wrote: | | Some of us cannot watch DLP. LOL. |
This sentence is incorrect unless all DLP projectors put you into an epileptic fit or something comparable.
Perhaps you mean "prefer not" or something similar?
Very few "cannot watch" a 3 chip DLP. Many see rainbows for a fraction of a second a few times per movie on single chip. As I've discovered, this actually descreases as you watch the display. Similar to how many people don't see the 3D effect immediately in 3D movies but get "better" at it the more they watch them.
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Dave
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe I'm one of the "lucky" corner-cases, but I see rainbows *constantly* with the right type of material. If it's a Baywatch rerun, all sun and sea and sand (and, um, other things), no problem. But if there are any significant dark areas, especially if it's an action-oriented movie, there are rainbows all over. I tried watching "Dr. Strangelove" on a lower-end DLP and gave up. The flashes of color were so distracting to the B&W presentation that it wasn't worth watching. It was the video equivalent of listening to a chewed-up album so full of scratches and pops and clicks that you can't focus on the music. Better DLPs aren't as bad, but the same effect is still there. Apparently I scan across the screen faster than most people do.
Of course a 3-chipper would totally solve rainbows, but 1) they cost a lot more, and 2) you lose one of DLP's biggest advantages: its absolute lack of registration error. If your 3-chipper happens to be (and stay) perfectly aligned, that's peachy, but if not...
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | Very few "cannot watch" a 3 chip DLP. Many see rainbows for a fraction of a second a few times per movie on single chip. As I've discovered, this actually descreases as you watch the display. Similar to how many people don't see the 3D effect immediately in 3D movies but get "better" at it the more they watch them. |
Is this anything like how, if you listen to a Bose system long enough, you'll get used to it, you won't really notice that it's a whizzer-cone speaker driven by a 15w amplifier, and eventually it'll sound just peachy?
Sorry, Dave - I saw the shot, and took it.
SC
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | Person99 wrote: | | Very few "cannot watch" a 3 chip DLP. Many see rainbows for a fraction of a second a few times per movie on single chip. As I've discovered, this actually descreases as you watch the display. Similar to how many people don't see the 3D effect immediately in 3D movies but get "better" at it the more they watch them. |
Is this anything like how, if you listen to a Bose system long enough, you'll get used to it, you won't really notice that it's a whizzer-cone speaker driven by a 15w amplifier, and eventually it'll sound just peachy?
Sorry, Dave - I saw the shot, and took it.
SC |
Nashou
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | Person99 wrote: | | Very few "cannot watch" a 3 chip DLP. Many see rainbows for a fraction of a second a few times per movie on single chip. As I've discovered, this actually descreases as you watch the display. Similar to how many people don't see the 3D effect immediately in 3D movies but get "better" at it the more they watch them. |
Is this anything like how, if you listen to a Bose system long enough, you'll get used to it, you won't really notice that it's a whizzer-cone speaker driven by a 15w amplifier, and eventually it'll sound just peachy?
Sorry, Dave - I saw the shot, and took it.
SC |
Sort of. 
Actually, what is in line with your analogy is how much they bother me. I found two things have actually happened as I've spent a year with the PJ:
1) I see less rainbows then I used to.
2) They bother me less than they used to.
I used to rail against the DLPs because I saw lots of rainbows and they would give me headaches after awhile. However, most of those experiences were with 4x color wheels--when I watch a 5x color wheel 2 things happened:
1) less rainbows
2) no headaches.
The current PJ I'm using is actually better than most. At 60Hz, the color wheel is 300Hz (5x). The 720p InFocus PJs that take 48 will keep the color wheel at 5x and slow it to 240Hz. The PJ I'm using bumps the color wheel to 6x in this case so it is 288 Hz. That helps me on this PJ with 1080p/24 content.
Funny thing, when we were trying different projectors, we watched a few movies on each of them. The current PJ gave my wife a headache first movie and I was like "well, no DLP for us". But that was because for a temp solution, I set it up with a very small image and it was BRIGHT. That is what gave her the headache. When moved to normal position, it is fine.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | | Maybe I'm one of the "lucky" corner-cases, but I see rainbows *constantly* with the right type of material. |
What speed color wheel PJs have you tried? A great number of the 720p were 4x or less. Try one that is 5x or 6x (6x became common with 1080p DLPs).
| garyfritz wrote: | | If it's a Baywatch rerun, all sun and sea and sand (and, um, other things), no problem. But if there are any significant dark areas, especially if it's an action-oriented movie, there are rainbows all over. |
What ended up being my test scene was the fight scene in Batman Begins when he climbs up the mountain and finds the dude he is looking for. The scene is very dark but there are torches burning. Since a fight scene, there is alot of movement so those torches rainbow.
But, I've watched that scene on a 4x and a 5x and there is a big difference in the number and duration of the rainbows I see.
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Dave
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| WanMan wrote: | The post was an attempt to understand what one could and could not afford in terms of getting 1080P out of a CRT budget. Of course pixel resolution is only one factor and as such this thread focusing only on that one dimension.
I would love to get a CRT projector that I could afford that could do 1080P. |
Actually, you did not say that in the poll. Does change things possibly.
When I set up the digi CIH over a year ago, this was a huge factor. I wanted to be able to swap out my entire CRT display chain for a digi CIH choin for under <$2000. Having figured out that the minimum I could spend for an anamorphic lens that was tolerable was about $600, and needed some cabling and such, that put the PJ budget at under $1200.
At the time, I thought "well LCoS is the obvious choice because it is the most CRT like". The RS2 and used RS1s were way over $1200 so they were no go. That meant my only LCoS choice was the JVC DLA-HX2U. The PJ was 1400x788 and had no screen door--I mean none. The problem was it had both $hitty on/off CR (true calibrated of <1100:1) and $hitty ANSI CR (not much better than a CRT (it is under 200:1)).
All the LCDs sucked. So, that left only DLP. After finding the best DLP I could find that met my requirements, it was between the JVC and the DLP PJ I have. So, it was:
3600:1 on/off vs. 1100:1 (I could see a huge difference--3600:1 is tolerable, 1100:1 is really bad).
647:1 ANSI CR vs. <200:1
Some rainbows vs. possible registration errors (JVC won't fix them if "within spec").
very slight SDE on white scenes vs. no SDE at all
So, $999 for the DLP new with a 3 year warranty, or $799 for the JVC with a 1 year warranty (at the time).
I decided a few rainbows occassionally were better than possible registration errors all the time and really really bad low APL scenes.
I always thought I'd wind up at LCoS, but after having the DLP for a year and watching some good 6x color wheels PJs, I'm not so sure anymore. ANSI CR is really nice--really--way more than I ever gave it credit for. Bright scenes just "pop" on my PJ and are really fun to watch. No one that makes LCoS has yet figured out how to do good ANSI CR.
So, not sure which way I'd go if given a $4000-5000 budget (my likely PJ budget when we move) but I'm really leaning toward staying with DLP.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | What speed color wheel PJs have you tried? A great number of the 720p were 4x or less. Try one that is 5x or 6x (6x became common with 1080p DLPs). |
The last normal DLP I watched might have been 4x. But my brother recently bought a Samsung HL67A750 LED DLP. I can't find the specs on it now, but I remember reading that it was at least 1.5x or 2x faster than current color-wheel projectors -- and I still saw rainbows on that. They weren't as bad, but they were still there.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:16 am Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | | Person99 wrote: | | What speed color wheel PJs have you tried? A great number of the 720p were 4x or less. Try one that is 5x or 6x (6x became common with 1080p DLPs). |
The last normal DLP I watched might have been 4x. But my brother recently bought a Samsung HL67A750 LED DLP. I can't find the specs on it now, but I remember reading that it was at least 1.5x or 2x faster than current color-wheel projectors -- and I still saw rainbows on that. . |
Odd thing and I don't know why, I find rainbows worse on RPTVs than PJs. Go figure.
| garyfritz wrote: | | They weren't as bad, but they were still there. |
Hey, I never said they would completely go away, I just said they get better!
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | Odd thing and I don't know why, I find rainbows worse on RPTVs than PJs. Go figure. |
I've noticed that, too. I've even seen it (to a much smaller extent) with CRT RPTV - presumably due to varying decay times between the three tubes.
I'd guess the increased noticeability has something to do with the low angular distribution (lower diffusion) on RPTVs. The higher brightness probably emphasizes the existence of the rainbows, similar to how turning up the volume on an amp makes the background noise more easily audible.
Just a guess, though.
SC
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:55 am Post subject: |
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Gary wrote: (emphasis added)
> ...my brother recently bought a Samsung HL67A750 LED DLP. ...I remember reading that it was at least 1.5x or 2x faster than current color-wheel projectors -- and I still saw rainbows on that. They weren't as bad, but they were still there. <
Ah, try _9.6x_ the normal 5x wheels. (There are no wheels... they pulse the PhlatLight LEDs in sync with the DMDs.) If you're still seeing rainbows with the light sources running at 2.9 kHz (48x a 60 Hz frame rate, or 120x a 24p rate), you'll never be happy with anything that "flashes".
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | WanMan wrote: | | Some of us cannot watch DLP. LOL. |
This sentence is incorrect unless all DLP projectors put you into an epileptic fit or something comparable.
Perhaps you mean "prefer not" or something similar?
Very few "cannot watch" a 3 chip DLP. Many see rainbows for a fraction of a second a few times per movie on single chip. As I've discovered, this actually descreases as you watch the display. Similar to how many people don't see the 3D effect immediately in 3D movies but get "better" at it the more they watch them. |
I do not have to have a seizure to decide that a technology is distracting to me to a point I will not have it in my life. I've seen plenty of FP projectors based on DLP, but I'll admit I have not seen a DLP tripod. And while I have not kept up with DLP in its evolution in the past couple of years, I remember that DLP tripods were prohibitively expensive and raise the BL floor.
But the pill boxes around me are catering to DLP. I just do not see the notion of paying someone money to have a worse movie presentation. Its just silly. Now, buying into a good DLP (hahahaha) in the hopes that my body becomes accustom to the technology is a rather racy bet I am not willing to gamble on.
BTW, I knock my brain just as much as I knock the DMD technology in this case. We both know my opinion of DLP would be completely different if I didn't see rainbows on all thought monopod DLP projectors.
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