CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

Nashou66 · Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 16171 Location: West Seneca NY

Reposted From AVS, hope this doesn't break the rules Curt but he kinda gave you a non naming plug(on-line Vendor)

Athanasios

Revisiting CRT. The good and the good.

Disclaimer: The following not meant to offend anyone from ether the Digital or CRT camp.

Why did I decide to pick up a CRT?
Digital front projection being my business I felt ( maybe out of boredom ) I needed a refresher to see what I was missing knowing CRT has made further progress advancing the technology (which hasn't stopped ) ever sense digital put a nail in its manufacturing coffin many years ago. It started out as a test to see if the CRT guys were pulling our leg with their chest pounding their mighty CRTs could fully resolve 1080p60 let alone claimed 1080p 72hz. When CRT FP displays were in their prime there was no need for 1080p everything was 480i/p line doubled at best. Today we have Sony Blue-Ray which puts out a very crisp native 1080p 24 image right off the disc. Could CRT deliver, this I had to see.
We are all waiting for digital technology to mature. While it has come a long way it still has a long way to go with each year taking baby steps. Our dream digital will achieve full black without clamping 100 IRE with deep saturated colors, very low back ground noise, mapping perfect 1:1 1080p24.
My analogy rationalizing my CRT purchase while we are waiting, CRT delivers all the above plus more, why wait. I could be enjoying my dream projector today.
A little about my evaluation system used for the CRT.
I am running a 7.5 foot wide 235:1 screen. Source BD 1080p 24 to a VP50pro set to 1920x817 72hz for smooth flicker free film playback.
The 800 vertical line scan saves bandwidth by drawing only the active scope image not wasting bandwidth drawing the black bars top/bottom. No resolution is lost. When telling the VP you are running a 235:1 CIH screen the VP scales and places all 16x9 source in the center of the scope screen in proper aspect ratio at the push of a button. I actually prefer and chose 1:85 theatrical film format to 16x9. No need to mention what brand or model CRT I purchased, there are several on the market that deliver the goods in a variety of flavors. The only criteria if you want to resolve full 1080p make sure it is a 9" liquid coupled display. There are plenty of qualified on line vendors to help you with your purchase.
So what benefits am I seeing from CRT.
We are all aware of the compromises from the limitation of 8 bit digital video, sadly the chosen consumer format. The difference delivering that same source through the same video chain A/B to both a digital and my CRT FP display is very revealing and an eye opener. If you get to close to the screen the digital display looks very nasty, at times these short comings rear their ugly head becoming visible even at normal viewing distance. This is where CRT excels delivering image quality beyond deep blacks. Very striking how clean the image looks. This allows me to sit a very comfortable 1x screen width away ( or closer ) to further encompass our field of vision for that engulfing movie experience.
At that distance the image takes on a very smooth natural film look. It is nice to see all this detail without that digital glare and lack of pixel structure. Even with bad source ringing and EE are not as pronounced and banding is all but gone unless embedded in the source.
No weird Gamma stuff. Very solid saturated image without any haze. Speaking of saturated the image is very rich, reminds me of an oil painting. Of course lets not forget the ultimate in black level. For the ultimate in home movie experience CRT delivers the goods but not without a few short comings. CRT is not as bright as some of the digital. They are big and heavy and require professional setup and calibration to maximize their performance. On the plus side you can find some great deals on the used market which if you get lucky can deliver the very best performance value.
Digital still throws a convincing image and for those with large screens digital is the only option. I wonder how many more years of advancement is before digital fully equals or excels all the benefits I am seeing with CRT.
For those who have the space and budget the ultimate would be to have the best of both worlds running both technologies in your home cinema.

Wait, I better back up a bit. My CRT rant is sounding way to positive. Remember I mentioned the sale of digital displays is my business, don't let the above stop any of you from buying a digital, it is important you do your part to fuel the economy by supporting AVS. We have a digital with your name on it at a budget you can afford even if it falls a little short delivering the same PQ of CRT, were not fare behind Smile

Tom.W · Joined: 09 Mar 2006 Posts: 6635

Guess it's funny Alan took so long to figure out what we for the most part already knew...

zGman · Joined: 22 May 2006 Posts: 599

So what is this new stuff - CRT? It sounds really nice!
G

drice1234 · Joined: 07 Oct 2006 Posts: 1309 Location: Allen, Texas

Curt probably has Kal raising the prices on his projectors for sale right now for the Christmas rush. Smile

benareeno · Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 1614 Location: ottawa, canada

Alan has a great perspective and echoes my sentiments...the absolute best is still crt. I love the lack of pixel structure and black blacks...plus I don't project a huge image, so light output has never been an issue.

**AnalogRocks** · Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:14 am Post subject:

CRT's are good, digitals not so good. Got it! Mr. Green

Ampro good digital not so good....

Z-Photo · Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:41 pm Post subject:

Ampro = bad

digital = not so good

CRT = good

BARCO = GREATNESS

Person99 · Joined: 09 Mar 2006 Posts: 4899 Location: Flower Mound, TX

I would agree with pretty much everything Alan said. As I've said several times here, judged purely on the presence of artifacts, the CRT wins hands down--hands effing down.

As we have all said, the CRT does a better job of "hiding" the defects in the source thanks to its "smoothing" effect. I certainly see much less banding with a CRT than any digital. I will agree with him there, the digitals (by their nature) are showing off the limitations of the 8-bit sources we are likely stuck with for quite awhile.

But, one must bear in mind a few salient points:
1) He is comparing a 9" to current digital (not 8 or 7 inch machines).
2) He is shooting on a 90" wide screen. This screen is the largest you can do a 9" on for a truly great picture. Unfortunately, 90" is way too small for a multi-row theater, but great if you have a small single row screening room.
3) I completely agree with him about artifact visibility and that is certainly a factor. Most artifacts are not visible from 1.0x screen width. Some are still visible over that, but it is certainly fewer and fewer. As an example, in my theater, we sit ~1.65x width from 16:9 content and 1.2x width from scope content (a little closer than SMPTE reference distance and almost exactly 20th Century Fox ideal distance) and I'm using the most artifact laden projector you can--a single chip DLP. Even with this PJ, at these distances I only occasionally notice temporal and spatial dithering. I don't think my wife has ever noticed it. As an experiment, after some movies (which had it), I've put up a 1 or 2 IRE screen and walked friends up to the screen to show them the dithering and ask if they saw it during the movie. Universally, they have all said "no".

But, I would disagree with him that the only advantage a digital has is brightness. That is just one of a few including:
- corner focus
- uniformity
- intrascene CR
- resolving power

Every single technology has its strengths and weaknesses and since there is no perfect projector, there is not one solution for all applications. Personally, I'm just glad we are not still living in a world where a great digital costs $25,000 and a great used CRT costs $10,000!!! It is even more amazing that the "world" was only 4 years ago!

Person99 · Joined: 09 Mar 2006 Posts: 4899 Location: Flower Mound, TX

BTW, since I have not been keeping up, what 9" is he using?

Tom.W · Joined: 09 Mar 2006 Posts: 6635

The last I heard it was a 9500 LC.

Person99 · Joined: 09 Mar 2006 Posts: 4899 Location: Flower Mound, TX

benareeno · Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 1614 Location: ottawa, canada

I'm using a 96" wide screen with a Barco 808s...no problem!

stefuel · Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:50 am Post subject:

zGman · Joined: 22 May 2006 Posts: 599

Is there something we should know about you and Pete?

hohohoho...!

Merry Christmas.

G

zGman · Joined: 22 May 2006 Posts: 599

Actually, after a moments reflection - I don't want to know....
G

draganm · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 8990 Location: Colorado

Spanky Ham · Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 5643 Location: Comedy Central

Interesting perspective from a digital seller. Smile

Dave,
I agree with what you have said here and elsewhere on this forum regarding digitals. Digital has a lot of advantages and can put up an excellent image. I think a lot of people here and in general need to see the best of both technologies to decide what they like and don't like. I think a lot of CRT people might switch if they saw some of the new digitals. That being said, I still prefer CRT and will for awhile. I haven't seen any of the 1 chip DLPs or LCDs that I would rather have than a CRT. I haven't seen the newest LCOS pjs yet. The single biggest issue for me is still black level followed by something being just off about the look of the picture. I don't see this second point with 3 chip DLP and that is one I could live with, price notwithstanding. As for the black level, it was me who said two and a half years ago that 20k to 1 on/off would be enough for most CRT owners after seeing a demo at Infocomm. According to Darin, the TI demo wasn't a full 20k to 1, but it was enough that combined with a 3 chip DLP that I might be happy. Smile

For current CRT owners, I think Clarence said it best "I will move to digital when they pry my cold dead fingers from around my ....." wait that wasn't it, oh yeah it was "I will move to digital when it is an upgrade not a lateral". Smile

zGman · Joined: 22 May 2006 Posts: 599

Well. there's a preference there to be sure - but I can point to two
instances this last fall where very knowledgeable and technically
competant owners of very high end digital PJ's decided to purchase
a nice 9" CRT.

One hasn't turned on the bulb machine ever since -

G

CasetheCorvetteman · Joined: 09 Nov 2008 Posts: 6326 Location: Australia

emdawgz1 · Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 7949