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emdawgz1
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 7949
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| Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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I agree w/ SC.
WT..... 
I still use a crt monitor @ home but will upgrade to a 21 inch LCD screen in the next 3 months. In addition, i am negotiating now w/ a store over a 47 inch LG LCD tv... LG 70hd
So CRT's have their place... as do the new tech.
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CRT_Ben
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1684
Location: Northern Virginia
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| Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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I've been meaning to post pix, but in early December MicroCenter was rerunning their Black Friday deals and I snagged a Sceptre 24" LCD for only $199. Beautiful 1920x1200 resolution, I found the color to be lacking out of the box but once calibrated with my Eye-1 I couldn't be happier. I switched from a 21" Trinitron that was starting to get fuzzy and convergence was off in the corners (and couldn't be adjusted out). I hate to say it but the entire room looks bigger without the monster CRT on the desk, and I really am satisfied with the PQ. I save critical viewing for the theater 
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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SC commented:
> You must be looking at total crap LCD's and the very best CRT's. <
You must be right, because I've never seen an LCD panel that came close to my GDM-FW900's. I wish I had. Even the IPS LCDs I've seen don't provide the uniformity in luminosity and chromaticity over multiple viewing angles I get with CRT. Frankly, I don't even like LCDs for programming, much less graphics work, or video.
I'd appreciate it if you'd tell us what LCDs we should be looking at. You suggested an Apple Cinema 24... anything else?
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Zebu Fellenz
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 2567
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| Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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I guess I'm in the middle here. I have a 21" Sony CRT and it is an excellent monitor at 1920x1440, I also have a 24" Acer Widescreen LCD, the Acer is nice, takes up little space and the resolution is comparable at 1920x1200, however for video I think the CRT wins due to the better black level and to my eye better color.
With that being said and while I like my LCD I would consider replacing it with a GDM-FW900 
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jask
Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 10187
Location: kamloops BC
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:46 am Post subject: |
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fixed native resolution, slower response time,narrow viewing cone, artificially high brightness/saturation, and lack of true black would be the most obvious problems... I know graphic artists that use both and love having dual LCD desktops but even when calibrated they use a crt or test print to confirm final colours.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:58 am Post subject: |
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| jask wrote: | | I know graphic artists that use both and love having dual LCD desktops but even when calibrated they use a crt or test print to confirm final colours. |
I honestly don't know why somebody would necessarily use a CRT anymore to "confirm" anything, unless they simply wanted to... A good LCD is perfectly capable of being calibrated to SWOP standards for soft-proofing. The gamut of SWOP process is MUCH smaller than what either LCD or CRT are capable of, so either can simulate SWOP. Plus, the extra luminance is of benefit in print matching. Even with the CRT, it's only a soft proof - you're not confirming anything - LCD OR CRT - unless you do a match proof.
I'll just throw these ideas out one by one, and address the issues as I see them... Note, I'm not trying to be argumentative - I'm just throwing out some personal opinions and general info as food for though - for discussion's sake.
fixed native resolution
That's not an issue for me. Since I need all the real-estate I can get regardless of display technology, I'm going to set it the highest I can use without suffering image quality, readability, or sharpness. With the FW900, that's 1920x1200. That's the same res I use my 24" Cinema display at. Remember - a CRT has its optimal resolution, too. Pick your poison.
slower response time
Not really an issue unless you're a hard-core PC gamer looking for max FPS without image blur. Response time is simply not an issue with good panels for anybody doing photography, graphic design, or content creation. Even editing video, it's not an issue. Lots of pros are editing in Avid, FCP, Premiere Pro, Vegas, etc. and are using LCD's without issue.
narrow viewing cone
This one I don't really get. Who sits off to the side of their display? You don't! Even if you do move to one side, you can simply move back if you do notice a difference. Heck, the thickness of the glass on something like an FW900 has an effect on the geometry and uniformity for off-axis viewing, too! Narrow optimal viewing angle could be an issue if you were reviewing with clients or something, but then you should have a larger presentation display, anyway if you're doing much of that.
artificially high brightness/saturation
Artificially high? Compared to what? CRT? CRT is artificially low, too - especially compared to CRT!!! For color proofing, the extra luminance is actually a good thing. Don't forget a CRT has issues, too. Whether you're using LCD OR CRT, you MUST calibrate the display for accurate color, so what's the diff? Most CRT's will crush blacks if not calibrated. Very few CRT's have good grayscale or accurate color temp before calibrating, either. Again, pick your poison - they both need to be calibrated.
and lack of true black
This one is truly an issue. If you like to game or watch movies with the lights off, the CRT obviously still has an advantage in that it can do absolute black. Of course, as we all know, you'll have to crush black slightly to do it, and you'll definitely have to do full calibration with gamma control to mitigate the crush. While the LCD can't do absolute black, in a normally-lit (not even high-ambient light) production environment, I can just barely tell my Cinema Display isn't black. Turn out the lights, and it's obvious... But, then if you calibrated a CRT for that environment, then you have to work in the dark, too.
I think some of you have a somewhat romantic notion about CRT displays and see them as somehow nearly perfect, while you see LCD's as having a bunch of drawbacks compared to CRT. In reality, the CRT's have issues that must be dealt with in some way, as do the LCD's. Some LCD issues you can fix, some you can't. Some CRT issues you can fix, some you can't.
There's nothing at all wrong with buying and using what you like or want, but understand that there are shortcomings in both technologies - not just the newer one.
SC
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| AnalogRocks wrote: | | Flicker drives me nuts but only from crappy florescent lights. Spanky your friend shoulda cranked the refresh rate on his monitor. |
| CasetheCorvetteman wrote: |
He didnt have a real good CRT monitor then did he. Id much rather have my old LG F700P instead of the 19 inch LCD i have sitting here now. The CRT was only 17 inch, but would resolve 1920x1440 @ 60Hz, which had slight flicker, however at 1600x1200 @ 75Hz, there was no flicker at all. None. Not any. Zero. If your mate says he could see it flicker on a CRT monitor of that standard of higher, he's trippin mate |
| jask wrote: | | sounds like a low refresh/res. setting to me too, I miss my Panasonic sl 70i (1280x1024/66) it was far less fatiguing than my current LCD.... I am really enjoying all this empty desk space. |
My friend isn't an idiot. He has always had a top of the line video card since the days of Voodoo. I am sure he was running his monitor at its highest refresh rate. I have no idea what monitor he had, but my guess is that it would have been a top of the line trinitron. Unlike me, he did like the Sony tube. If you want to see his work, then go to his webpage. He is not a total noob when it comes to video.
| AnalogRocks wrote: | I run this one ( 19inch Princeton Ultra95 c.1999 ) at 1152x864 at 72Hz. The only fliker I get is when I have the fan on beside it.
Hey Spanky, is your friend sensitive to DLP rainbows too? |
He says he is. I know he says that he couldn't own a DLP pj, but I am not sure if he has seen one of the newer ones to see how sensitive he is.
I should add that I use to see flicker as well, but it didn't bother me. Yes, I did run my monitor at 100hz.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:39 am Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: |
I think some of you have a somewhat romantic notion about CRT displays and see them as somehow nearly perfect, while you see LCD's as having a bunch of drawbacks compared to CRT. In reality, the CRT's have issues that must be dealt with in some way, as do the LCD's. Some LCD issues you can fix, some you can't. Some CRT issues you can fix, some you can't.
There's nothing at all wrong with buying and using what you like or want, but understand that there are shortcomings in both technologies - not just the newer one.
SC |
Well said and I agree. I have never seen the uber Sony, but the one thing that would concern me is how old these monitors are and how much they were used. I am sure they are great and I would probably grab one if they were cheap. One thing I wouldn't do is pay a premium for one. This Sun branded trinitron that I am using is supposed to be great, but I actually prefered my old Nokia (it died). In looking at my laptop monitor and this Sun, I would probably go with LCD for everyday desktop work. For gaming or movies, I would definitely go the CRT route.
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jask
Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 10187
Location: kamloops BC
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:10 am Post subject: |
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SC I could not agree with you more, for your application LCD works very well. I also am sitting in front of an LCD,and if it were a cinema display I would be a far happier fellow!
When I started to notice deterioration in my CRT image, LCD was an easy choice.I use this as an internet and "play" computer - I often use it to watch movies while I do other tasks at my "L' shaped desk, so yes I do watch it off axis- and one area I really notice the difference in image quality is dynamic HD content. The difference between the two monitors was not a big deal,but it is noticeable.
I intend to spend a lot more on my next display and it will be a panel because I really like all this desk area.In fact the only CRT seeing regular use in our home any more is the projector.
If you want I can come up with a list of CRT shortcomings, but as you said they both have areas that they excel in.
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:43 am Post subject: |
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Dont worry about a thing Crabb, im not about to pay you to go back, the rest of us will go back so you can stay here 
| jask wrote: | Right now it is covered with various usb devices and cords, a Holo3D card-waiting for a cable,a stack of cd/dvd that I need to sort out and too few bottles of scotch....  |
Here you go mate, have one on me
| Spanky Ham wrote: |
My friend isn't an idiot. He has always had a top of the line video card since the days of Voodoo. I am sure he was running his monitor at its highest refresh rate. I have no idea what monitor he had, but my guess is that it would have been a top of the line trinitron. Unlike me, he did like the Sony tube. If you want to see his work, then go to his webpage. He is not a total noob when it comes to video.
I should add that I use to see flicker as well, but it didn't bother me. Yes, I did run my monitor at 100hz. |
I wouldnt go so far as to say he was an idiot, but i certainly will say if you can see flicker at 100Hz, maybe you need to slow down and relax.... If i couldnt see it at 75, and no one else i know personally can see it at 75, then i dont believe you could see flicker at 100Hz. Its all in your head.
Sorry budrow, no offence intended, but i just dont believe it.
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Stonefool
Joined: 24 Dec 2006
Posts: 253
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:28 am Post subject: Re: Revisiting CRT: A persective by By Alan Gouger |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | Reposted From AVS, hope this doesn't break the rules Curt but he kinda gave you a non naming plug(on-line Vendor)
Athanasios
Revisiting CRT. The good and the good.
Disclaimer: The following not meant to offend anyone from ether the Digital or CRT camp.
Why did I decide to pick up a CRT?
Digital front projection being my business I felt ( maybe out of boredom ) I needed a refresher to see what I was missing knowing CRT has made further progress advancing the technology (which hasn't stopped ) ever sense digital put a nail in its manufacturing coffin many years ago. It started out as a test to see if the CRT guys were pulling our leg with their chest pounding their mighty CRTs could fully resolve 1080p60 let alone claimed 1080p 72hz. When CRT FP displays were in their prime there was no need for 1080p everything was 480i/p line doubled at best. Today we have Sony Blue-Ray which puts out a very crisp native 1080p 24 image right off the disc. Could CRT deliver, this I had to see.
We are all waiting for digital technology to mature. While it has come a long way it still has a long way to go with each year taking baby steps. Our dream digital will achieve full black without clamping 100 IRE with deep saturated colors, very low back ground noise, mapping perfect 1:1 1080p24.
My analogy rationalizing my CRT purchase while we are waiting, CRT delivers all the above plus more, why wait. I could be enjoying my dream projector today.
A little about my evaluation system used for the CRT.
I am running a 7.5 foot wide 235:1 screen. Source BD 1080p 24 to a VP50pro set to 1920x817 72hz for smooth flicker free film playback.
The 800 vertical line scan saves bandwidth by drawing only the active scope image not wasting bandwidth drawing the black bars top/bottom. No resolution is lost. When telling the VP you are running a 235:1 CIH screen the VP scales and places all 16x9 source in the center of the scope screen in proper aspect ratio at the push of a button. I actually prefer and chose 1:85 theatrical film format to 16x9. No need to mention what brand or model CRT I purchased, there are several on the market that deliver the goods in a variety of flavors. The only criteria if you want to resolve full 1080p make sure it is a 9" liquid coupled display. There are plenty of qualified on line vendors to help you with your purchase.
So what benefits am I seeing from CRT.
We are all aware of the compromises from the limitation of 8 bit digital video, sadly the chosen consumer format. The difference delivering that same source through the same video chain A/B to both a digital and my CRT FP display is very revealing and an eye opener. If you get to close to the screen the digital display looks very nasty, at times these short comings rear their ugly head becoming visible even at normal viewing distance. This is where CRT excels delivering image quality beyond deep blacks. Very striking how clean the image looks. This allows me to sit a very comfortable 1x screen width away ( or closer ) to further encompass our field of vision for that engulfing movie experience.
At that distance the image takes on a very smooth natural film look. It is nice to see all this detail without that digital glare and lack of pixel structure. Even with bad source ringing and EE are not as pronounced and banding is all but gone unless embedded in the source.
No weird Gamma stuff. Very solid saturated image without any haze. Speaking of saturated the image is very rich, reminds me of an oil painting. Of course lets not forget the ultimate in black level. For the ultimate in home movie experience CRT delivers the goods but not without a few short comings. CRT is not as bright as some of the digital. They are big and heavy and require professional setup and calibration to maximize their performance. On the plus side you can find some great deals on the used market which if you get lucky can deliver the very best performance value.
Digital still throws a convincing image and for those with large screens digital is the only option. I wonder how many more years of advancement is before digital fully equals or excels all the benefits I am seeing with CRT.
For those who have the space and budget the ultimate would be to have the best of both worlds running both technologies in your home cinema.
Wait, I better back up a bit. My CRT rant is sounding way to positive. Remember I mentioned the sale of digital displays is my business, don't let the above stop any of you from buying a digital, it is important you do your part to fuel the economy by supporting AVS. We have a digital with your name on it at a budget you can afford even if it falls a little short delivering the same PQ of CRT, were not fare behind
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Uhm, you go CRT because it's a CRT.
And contrary to your beliefs the "old" HD resolutions is 720p or 1080i, and there were CRT PJs from as early as (at least) 1989 that could do 1080i. (Japan was like half a decade before US to use HDTV [1080i].)
A CRT don't care what you through at it, it has the three colors needed to reproduce every xx-bit colors you through at it, pretty much. Resolution varies, which is actually very good, since why whatch an old DVD in 1080p if it looks better in 720p.
Greyscale follow the colors, well colors follow greyscale ...
The life of the tubes is way and way more then any bulb used in 100% digitals.
Modularity is a bonus. Try only sending in one board from a 100% digital PJ ...
The rationale is that the CRT PJ is as close as you can get to the actually (reel) cinema PJ, that is the hardware don't give f-ck about anything else then displaying the picture. So if the picture is 16-bits of colors at 480 lines progressive that is what it displays (considering how well you tuned it), like wise for 32 bits colors and or 1080 lines.
Not to forget the actual amounts of lumens are actually "steady" with a CRT, and not dynamic ("abnormal" light out put like) with most of todays 100% digitals. That is, it is less likely you get some what annoyed, or even woosy, from "dynamic" light output from a CRT then it is from a 100% digital.
Cheers. (I'm actually smiling.)
:/
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:15 am Post subject: Re: Revisiting CRT: A persective by By Alan Gouger |
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| Stonefool wrote: |
And contrary to your beliefs the "old" HD resolutions is 720p or 1080i, and there were CRT PJs from as early as (at least) 1989 that could do 1080i. (Japan was like half a decade before US to use HDTV [1080i].)
:/ |
Actually it was sweet analog HiVision at 1025i, recorded to WVHS with 2 chanel sound. Pioneer produced a highdef LD player too.
Awesum!
Meanwhile back in North America we argued over a format while the Japaneese enjoyed highdef. In the end we deceided not to decide which is why we don't actaully have a standard ( all 18 ATSC standards ) <---I read that on a lot of ATSC tuners.
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:18 am Post subject: Re: Revisiting CRT: A persective by By Alan Gouger |
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| Stonefool wrote: |
Uhm, you go CRT because it's a CRT.
And contrary to your beliefs the "old" HD resolutions is 720p or 1080i, and there were CRT PJs from as early as (at least) 1989 that could do 1080i. (Japan was like half a decade before US to use HDTV [1080i].)
A CRT don't care what you through at it, it has the three colors needed to reproduce every xx-bit colors you through at it, pretty much. Resolution varies, which is actually very good, since why whatch an old DVD in 1080p if it looks better in 720p.
Greyscale follow the colors, well colors follow greyscale ...
The life of the tubes is way and way more then any bulb used in 100% digitals.
Modularity is a bonus. Try only sending in one board from a 100% digital PJ ...
The rationale is that the CRT PJ is as close as you can get to the actually (reel) cinema PJ, that is the hardware don't give f-ck about anything else then displaying the picture. So if the picture is 16-bits of colors at 480 lines progressive that is what it displays (considering how well you tuned it), like wise for 32 bits colors and or 1080 lines.
Not to forget the actual amounts of lumens are actually "steady" with a CRT, and not dynamic ("abnormal" light out put like) with most of todays 100% digitals. That is, it is less likely you get some what annoyed, or even woosy, from "dynamic" light output from a CRT then it is from a 100% digital.
Cheers. (I'm actually smiling.)
:/ |
Well said mate, have a beer
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:42 am Post subject: |
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Just had a phone conversation With Alan and talked about whats new in digital and mostly CRT, he got wondering about all this 1080p CRT stuff on AVS we all post about. Right now he has at his place the only one in the US $40,000 3 chip Sim 2 Pj,he is testing it and found a few bugs and has to send it back to fix the bugs(nothing image wise) while he says it is definitely amazing, great colors, and nicer blacks than the RS20, he prefers the picture of his VDC 9500LC Ultra better, its "more film Like" he said, he also has a couple Film PJ's and he says the Marquee is more reminiscent of the Film PJ than the uber expensive Sim2. And he said take the money he spent on this 2003 Marquee 9500LC Ultra and he wouldn't spend the same amount on any similar priced digital out there. CRT lives strong. He's a really nice guy and now is concerned about the future of CRT, he is definitely hooked !
Athanasios
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:06 am Post subject: |
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| CasetheCorvetteman wrote: |
I wouldnt go so far as to say he was an idiot, but i certainly will say if you can see flicker at 100Hz, maybe you need to slow down and relax.... If i couldnt see it at 75, and no one else i know personally can see it at 75, then i dont believe you could see flicker at 100Hz. Its all in your head.
Sorry budrow, no offence intended, but i just dont believe it. |
I don't want to belabor this, but I don't question people that see rainbows with the fastest color wheels. There is a lot of people that say it gives them headaches over at AVS, but I haven't met anyone that I know that has problems with DLP. I wouldn't believe that CRTs have rainbows till Phil Smith did it with his G70.
I replied to this thread, because I was talking to my best friend today. First, he said he used the uber Sony CRT monitors at Sony and Zoic. He said he lusted after them when he was at Sony around five years ago. When he left Zoic maybe a year and a half ago, they gave him one for free. He gave it to a friend, because it was to big and heavy. He said they had a bunch of them stacked up by the front door for anyone that wanted them. He said the image it produced was beautiful and it could display high resolutions, which he loved. Since he hasn't seen the Sony lately, he doesn't know if he would prefer it to his new flat panel or not now that resolution is a wash. Second, this is why I replied to the thread. CJ, you are incorrect about the use of CRTs in the industry. Zoic was the last place he has seen a CRT. Every animation company he has been to uses flat panels and even the ones he worked at before Zoic. I won't say no place uses CRTs anymore, but I would guess there are only a couple that may still use them. I won't say whether it is good or bad that there are no more CRT monitors being used, but I do hope that the monitors that are used are being properly calibrated.
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km987654
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 2874
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:09 am Post subject: |
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So we are still on the CRT v Digital comparison. As I have said before there is no comparison. Each uses different technology and therefore each will shine in different ways. Its simply a question of which you prefer. In other threads people have even suggested that CRT days are numbered and I mentioned vinyl is still around after 25 years of CD and you know the other day I thought propeller driven air craft are still being made today after 60 years of jet engines.
CRTs do what they do better than any other technology for those of us that want those advantages.
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Tom.W
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:20 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Nashou66"]Just had a phone conversation With Alan and talked about whats new in digital and mostly CRT, he got wondering about all this 1080p CRT stuff on AVS we all post about. Right now he has at his place the only one in the US $40,000 3 chip Sim 2 Pj,he is testing it and found a few bugs and has to send it back to fix the bugs(nothing image wise) while he says it is definitely amazing, great colors, and nicer blacks than the RS20, he prefers the picture of his VDC 9500LC Ultra better, its "more film Like" he said, he also has a couple Film PJ's and he says the Marquee is more reminiscent of the Film PJ than the uber expensive Sim2. And he said take the money he spent on this 2003 Marquee 9500LC Ultra and he wouldn't spend the same amount on any similar priced digital out there. CRT lives strong. He's a really nice guy and now is concerned about the future of CRT, he is definitely hooked !
Athanasios[/quote
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