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SYC
Joined: 16 May 2006
Posts: 269
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| Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:14 pm Post subject: Which Blu-ray player can output a clean video signal? |
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I plan to buy a Blu-ray player, but when I play with my friend's PS3, I found a big problem. When I did some the "sharpness control" calibration with the display connecting wih the PS3 by DVE(Digital Video Essential), I found that PS3 output the video added with too much sharpness so that the pciture has some "ring effect". I am wondering which player can output a clean video signal without adding sharpness.
SYC
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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You connecting component or HDMI?
You talking BD or DVD?
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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You played with your friend's PS3 on your display?
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Gary M.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:06 am Post subject: |
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most blu-ray players out there today are adding processing to the image, this is a hidden dirty little secret of BD
and goes especially the PS3, the PS3 is not a videophile playback device, it is a gaming machine
just another reason for HD-SDI 
-Gary
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| Gary M. wrote: | most blu-ray players out there today are adding processing to the image, this is a hidden dirty little secret of BD
and goes especially the PS3, the PS3 is not a videophile playback device, it is a gaming machine
just another reason for HD-SDI
-Gary |
Gary, I do not think that its such a dirty little secret. What players mass marketed are not conducting some sort of processing after pulling the bits from the disk? And I'm not even limiting the discussion to BD.
BTW, who is currently manufacturing HD-SDI equipped BD players?
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Gary M. wrote: | most blu-ray players out there today are adding processing to the image, this is a hidden dirty little secret of BD
and goes especially the PS3, the PS3 is not a videophile playback device, it is a gaming machine |
Uh oh, I agree with Gary on this one. Have to go shoot myself. 
| Gary M. wrote: | just another reason for HD-SDI
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But, not on this one. 
There are devices with better 1080p/24 HDMI output that the PS3. In fact, there are several good ones such that the law of diminishing returns is in effect. I would simply LOVE to set up a double blind test with a good player HDMI and an HD-SDI player. I would bet a HUGE sum of money you could not reliably tell the difference. But alas, no one does this kind of testing because it would prove them wrong.
| Quote: | | BTW, who is currently manufacturing HD-SDI equipped BD players? |
No one, but I'm sure Gary would be happy to modify one for you--for a fee.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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I actually knew not a single manufacturer was offering this. Just wanted to point that out without picking up the Crayola Crayons.
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SYC
Joined: 16 May 2006
Posts: 269
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | You connecting component or HDMI?
You talking BD or DVD? |
I use HDMI and BD DVE to be played on a PS3. The ring effect can be turned the way down even though I turn the sharpness control of the display to the minimun.
I did some tests yesterday to play DVD DVE on my PC with KMP. I found that the pciture is clean without extra sharpness. But I don't like to use HTPC, so I wish I can find a good player for my coming Lumagen VisionHDQ.
SYC
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting. I've seen no ringing whatsoever on BD content played on the PS3 displayed pixel-mapped on a true 1080p display. Perhaps the display you were using was at fault. There may be other issues, but I'm not aware of any frequency-filtering at all on the PS3 - not at 1080p, anyway. You wouldn't be talking about a non-1080p display, would you? In that case, the display's scaler could be adding artifacts you can't remove with a simple "sharpness" control.
| Gary M. wrote: | | most blu-ray players out there today are adding processing to the image, this is a hidden dirty little secret of BD and goes especially the PS3, the PS3 is not a videophile playback device, it is a gaming machine |
Oh, here we go with the hyperbole, again. No objective testing, evidence or proof... Just notions about a device based on other functions it performs. I'd submit that there are no truly "videophile" Blu-ray players. I haven't seen ANY quantitative scientific testing that shows what, if any processing, any - let alone one or a few - of the BD players on the market add or do not add. Until we do, you guys are just making stuff up based on preconceived notions and no real evidence.
I'll cut you some slack Dave, in that you say you saw differences. That's fine, and I accept that. But, I'm amazed that no magazine or testing lab has compared these players like they used to do with DVD players. Until somebody does, I'm not going to write off one player or get excited about another based on whether it's "videophile" or "game machine"... Not without seeing some evidence of what, if any, differences do exist.
| Gary M. wrote: | | just another reason for HD-SDI |
Yeah, or HDMI inserted at a point in the video chain of the source device where it doesn't have whatever processing may exist later in the chain. Of course, if you're going to go to those lengths, you may as well re-engineer the entire output stage of the source device. If you do that, could you go ahead and just make mine HDMI, though? It'll look just the same on-screen and my prepro will still switch the signal.
SC
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Gary M.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | Interesting. I've seen no ringing whatsoever on BD content played on the PS3 displayed pixel-mapped on a true 1080p display. Perhaps the display you were using was at fault. There may be other issues, but I'm not aware of any frequency-filtering at all on the PS3 - not at 1080p, anyway. You wouldn't be talking about a non-1080p display, would you? In that case, the display's scaler could be adding artifacts you can't remove with a simple "sharpness" control.
| Gary M. wrote: | | most blu-ray players out there today are adding processing to the image, this is a hidden dirty little secret of BD and goes especially the PS3, the PS3 is not a videophile playback device, it is a gaming machine |
Oh, here we go with the hyperbole, again. No objective testing, evidence or proof... Just notions about a device based on other functions it performs. I'd submit that there are no truly "videophile" Blu-ray players. I haven't seen ANY quantitative scientific testing that shows what, if any processing, any - let alone one or a few - of the BD players on the market add or do not add. Until we do, you guys are just making stuff up based on preconceived notions and no real evidence.
I'll cut you some slack Dave, in that you say you saw differences. That's fine, and I accept that. But, I'm amazed that no magazine or testing lab has compared these players like they used to do with DVD players. Until somebody does, I'm not going to write off one player or get excited about another based on whether it's "videophile" or "game machine"... Not without seeing some evidence of what, if any, differences do exist.
| Gary M. wrote: | | just another reason for HD-SDI |
Yeah, or HDMI inserted at a point in the video chain of the source device where it doesn't have whatever processing may exist later in the chain. Of course, if you're going to go to those lengths, you may as well re-engineer the entire output stage of the source device. If you do that, could you go ahead and just make mine HDMI, though? It'll look just the same on-screen and my prepro will still switch the signal.
SC |
how do you know what objective testing I have done?
I don't need to prove anything SC, as a hardware reviewer and beta tester I have spoken to insiders and seen many things, it is there and I am not even supposed to mention it but I did, take it how you want to
do you sub to Skeptic Magazine by any chance? 
-Gary
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Gary M.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| WanMan wrote: | | I actually knew not a single manufacturer was offering this. Just wanted to point that out without picking up the Crayola Crayons. |
mods baby  no one will ever make a HD-SDI equipped player
-Gary
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Gary M.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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I will add my pick to this thread for the cleanest HDMI picture quality that I have seen, including a exact model:
the Panasonic DMP-BD50 it is
I do HD-SDI on this player all the time and it is of course a pinch better, but this is the cleanest HDMI I have seen and is 4:2:2 output to boot, closest to HD-SDI you will get
-Gary
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Gary M. wrote: | | how do you know what objective testing I have done? |
I don't. But, last I knew you weren't an engineer, didn't have any serious design, engineering, or testing experience, and don't have any equipment to do proper testing. Has any of that changed, Gary?
| Gary M. wrote: | | I don't need to prove anything SC, as a hardware reviewer and beta tester I have spoken to insiders and seen many things, it is there and I am not even supposed to mention it but I did, take it how you want to |
Actually, you do have to prove something - if you don't want to be questioned, that is. If you want to make statements and present them as facts, then you damn well better have some evidence - at least a shred - to back it up. Otherwise, it's simply your opinion, rumor, or hearsay. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.
I don't care if you're a "hardware reviewer" or "beta tester", either. Without an engineering degree or at least some serious engineering or design experience and training, neither of those things makes you any more qualified than any of the other enthusiasts, here. Hell, I cold do some tweaks to my room and buy a couple of pieces of equipment, and I'd have just as good of a setup as you had until you got the Runco! WTF?
Oh, and I'll head you off at the pass before you start spouting off about my questioning your credentials and experience as being an ad hominem attack. Experience, background, training and education all relate directly to the CREDIBILITY of that individual making claims. Last I knew, you had little or no experience, background, training or education in the design or modification of video circuits. So, believe me when I say that Mike Parker saying something about a video circuit means a whole hell of a lot more to me than when you say it. That's credibility. Sorry, but that's just reality.
| Gary M. wrote: | | do you sub to Skeptic Magazine by any chance? |
Nope. I am however of highly skeptical of people's opinions when they pass them off as fact without any evidence to back it up other than "I've talked to insiders and seen many things."
Sorry, Gary. I'm just really tired of you making all kinds of claims without any evidence or facts to back anything up. Where I come from, we call that hot air.
SC
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emdawgz1
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 7949
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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But SC.... he's "talked to insiders" ..... doesnt that mean anything to you???
They're INSIDE!!!
C'mon man!
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Gary M.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | Gary M. wrote: | | how do you know what objective testing I have done? |
I don't. But, last I knew you weren't an engineer, didn't have any serious design, engineering, or testing experience, and don't have any equipment to do proper testing. Has any of that changed, Gary?
| Gary M. wrote: | | I don't need to prove anything SC, as a hardware reviewer and beta tester I have spoken to insiders and seen many things, it is there and I am not even supposed to mention it but I did, take it how you want to |
Actually, you do have to prove something - if you don't want to be questioned, that is. If you want to make statements and present them as facts, then you damn well better have some evidence - at least a shred - to back it up. Otherwise, it's simply your opinion, rumor, or hearsay. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.
I don't care if you're a "hardware reviewer" or "beta tester", either. Without an engineering degree or at least some serious engineering or design experience and training, neither of those things makes you any more qualified than any of the other enthusiasts, here. Hell, I cold do some tweaks to my room and buy a couple of pieces of equipment, and I'd have just as good of a setup as you had until you got the Runco! WTF?
Oh, and I'll head you off at the pass before you start spouting off about my questioning your credentials and experience as being an ad hominem attack. Experience, background, training and education all relate directly to the CREDIBILITY of that individual making claims. Last I knew, you had little or no experience, background, training or education in the design or modification of video circuits. So, believe me when I say that Mike Parker saying something about a video circuit means a whole hell of a lot more to me than when you say it. That's credibility. Sorry, but that's just reality.
| Gary M. wrote: | | do you sub to Skeptic Magazine by any chance? |
Nope. I am however of highly skeptical of people's opinions when they pass them off as fact without any evidence to back it up other than "I've talked to insiders and seen many things."
Sorry, Gary. I'm just really tired of you making all kinds of claims without any evidence or facts to back anything up. Where I come from, we call that hot air.
SC |
how do you know what equipment I have? what testing I have done? what design experience I have? me thinks you pulled this from your ass
so let me get this straight, you have to be a Engineer to know good picture quality and critique video on a videophile level? do reviews of products?
I owe you no evidence nor test sheets or published papers to prove anything I say, since when is anything anyone says here other than opinion?
on top of that had you ever considered the facts of my claims/opinions may be locked by NDAs I am under? oh it just burns you up that this KY boy is in the know of things you aren't doesn't it?
this is just too funny 
-Gary
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Gary M. wrote: | | how do you know what equipment I have? what testing I have done? what design experience I have? me thinks you pulled this from your ass |
I'm not pulling anything from my ass, Gary. Rather, I'm only going by what I've read from you in the past. You've never said anything about any design experience or any specialized testing or measurement equipment nor anything about a reference display besides your HT setup. Am I wrong about any of that? If so, feel free to enlighten me.
| Gary M. wrote: | | so let me get this straight, you have to be a Engineer to know good picture quality and critique video on a videophile level? |
I never said that. I'm not an engineer either, yet I can do both of those things, too. A lot of the guys here can! I think you're missing the point.
If you make a claim, the burden of proof is on you. You can use references, test results, or other kinds of evidence. When you make claims without providing any of those things, then you're making BASELESS claims - AKA "blowing smoke". You stand fast and say you're the expert, and you're in the know, and then when you get backed into a corner, you say, "Hey, it's just my opinion - that's all any of this here is, are people's opinions.
| Gary M. wrote: | | get a clue man, I owe you no evidence nor test sheets or published papers to prove anything I say, this is just too funny since when is anything anyone says here other than opinion? |
Yeah, you're right - almost everything people write here is their opinion. It's just that most people here actually SAY it's their opinion - and don't claim it as anything else. They don't act like they're experts that know more than everybody else, here. They don't make claims about how this or that is superior or this, that and the other thing suck... like you do... Unless they have some solid evidence with which to back it up.
| Gary M. wrote: | | on top of that had you ever considered the facts of my claims/opinions may be locked by NDAs I am under? |
Here we go again. I could tell you, but I can't. Conversation ender! OK, you win, Gary. I trust you.
| Gary M. wrote: | | it just burns you up that this KY boy is in the know of things you aren't doesn't it? |
I don't care who you are, where you're from, or how old you are. All I care about are what qualifications and/or equipment you have (or, in your case DON'T have) to be able to make quantitative statements that one player or another is superior, or that the image from consumer gear - specifically Blu-ray - will be better over HD-SDI than it will be over HDMI. You should AT LEAST be able to say how and why something is so, either by referencing something or failing that, be able to give some examples of tests or measurements you or somebody else made. Otherwise, it's called blowing smoke.
I'm not trying to dump on you, Gary... But, if you don't want to sound like you're full of crap, you really need to tone it down a bit and stop with the "I'm an industry expert with inside connections and this piece of equipment is awesome and this piece of equipment sucks, but I can't tell you why because I'm under an NDA" crap. It makes you look silly - not smart or "in the know".
SC
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, y'all, just post your resumes. Already did mine. 
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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Y'all? Ya talk lack yur frum Georgia or sumthin'!
SC
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 3:25 am Post subject: |
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| Gary M. wrote: | | most blu-ray players out there today are adding processing to the image, this is a hidden dirty little secret of BD and goes especially the PS3, the PS3 is not a videophile playback device, it is a gaming machine |
What processing does the PS3 add to the image? I'm assuming for you (and others?) to say this, it must be documented somewhere?
I'm not picking a fight here. I'm just trying to learn.
Kal
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:16 am Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | I'm not picking a fight here. |
I am. 
No, seriously... He could tell you, Kal. But, then he'd have to kill you.
No, seriously... He could tell you, but he's under a NDA.
SC
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