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Leo
Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| WanMan wrote: | | Well, at least its not DLP. So, no rainbows. I am curious if you are viewing test-content at a distance for you to resolve the pixel resolution or if not at what distance. I guess what I am exploring is if the SDE is still a problem--been a while since I looked at a 3LCD. |
Panasonic AE3000 uses what they call a smooth-screen filter to minimize SDE on lcd. SDE should be a non issue and similar to LCOS/SXRD.
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overclkr
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 4227
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:23 am Post subject: |
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| Leo wrote: | | WanMan wrote: | | Well, at least its not DLP. So, no rainbows. I am curious if you are viewing test-content at a distance for you to resolve the pixel resolution or if not at what distance. I guess what I am exploring is if the SDE is still a problem--been a while since I looked at a 3LCD. |
Panasonic AE3000 uses what they call a smooth-screen filter to minimize SDE on lcd. SDE should be a non issue and similar to LCOS/SXRD. |
Yep, not an issue at all. This thing is basically an RS1 with better features, no glowing corners, better convergence, and is less money. The light output is actually pretty damn good.
Cliff
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:51 am Post subject: |
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Ok, its been 3-4 years since I went reading up, but then it was a case in which LCoS had the highest fill factor in the competition between it and LCD and DLP. IIRC, the LCoS/LCD/DLP fill factors were something like 91%, 55-60%, and 89% respectively. For someone to go from the lowest to about the highest would make me wonder considerable.
Cliff, do you have what it takes to take an up-close (ahem, macro) picture of a single projected pixel? I did this years ago with a Sony LCD projector, and you can see the flaring (and its direction) on each of the colors.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | Cliffy sits plenty close, 1.0x or so, so if he likes it I doubt there's any SDE problems.
But you could have convergence issues. I'm waiting for the LED DLPs that cycle the LEDs so fast that NObody will see rainbows. |
I'm very rainbow sensitive at a 4x color wheel like most of the 720p DLPs have. At 5x I still seem them occasionally. At 6x like some of the 1080p single chip, I see them very rarely. So, the problem is already solved for 99.999% of the time.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| WanMan wrote: | | Well, at least its not DLP. So, no rainbows. I am curious if you are viewing test-content at a distance for you to resolve the pixel resolution or if not at what distance. I guess what I am exploring is if the SDE is still a problem--been a while since I looked at a 3LCD. |
SDE and pixel visibility are different things. SDE has not been a problem since 720p LCD (last gens of 720p DLP did not have SDE problems nor have the 1400x788 LCoS machines).
No 1080p PJ of any type has SDE issues--even LCD. However, the Panny PJs all have a a lens which effectively defocuses the picture, so pixels are less visible on these than scan lines are on a good 9" CRT.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| overclkr wrote: | | Leo wrote: | | WanMan wrote: | | Well, at least its not DLP. So, no rainbows. I am curious if you are viewing test-content at a distance for you to resolve the pixel resolution or if not at what distance. I guess what I am exploring is if the SDE is still a problem--been a while since I looked at a 3LCD. |
Panasonic AE3000 uses what they call a smooth-screen filter to minimize SDE on lcd. SDE should be a non issue and similar to LCOS/SXRD. |
Yep, not an issue at all. This thing is basically an RS1 with better features, no glowing corners, better convergence, and is less money. The light output is actually pretty damn good.
Cliff |
The RS2 and subsequent PJs are much better than the RS1.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| WanMan wrote: | Ok, its been 3-4 years since I went reading up, but then it was a case in which LCoS had the highest fill factor in the competition between it and LCD and DLP. IIRC, the LCoS/LCD/DLP fill factors were something like 91%, 55-60%, and 89% respectively. For someone to go from the lowest to about the highest would make me wonder considerable.
Cliff, do you have what it takes to take an up-close (ahem, macro) picture of a single projected pixel? I did this years ago with a Sony LCD projector, and you can see the flaring (and its direction) on each of the colors. |
1) Up close pictures of a Panny will not sshow any pixels. Up close pictures of a CRT will reveal a far worse picture.
2) No one sits at .1x screen width, so what the picture looks like there could not be more irrelevant. What matters is what it looks like at 1.0x and greater. Any you will not see SDE of any kind on ANY 1080p digital.
Your comments really make me wonder how many of the folks that are still "bashing" digitals have done any research or seen any good ones. I don't think half you guys realize, the digitals of today are not the digitals of 4 years ago!
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | overclkr wrote: | | Leo wrote: | | WanMan wrote: | | Well, at least its not DLP. So, no rainbows. I am curious if you are viewing test-content at a distance for you to resolve the pixel resolution or if not at what distance. I guess what I am exploring is if the SDE is still a problem--been a while since I looked at a 3LCD. |
Panasonic AE3000 uses what they call a smooth-screen filter to minimize SDE on lcd. SDE should be a non issue and similar to LCOS/SXRD. |
Yep, not an issue at all. This thing is basically an RS1 with better features, no glowing corners, better convergence, and is less money. The light output is actually pretty damn good.
Cliff |
The RS2 and subsequent PJs are much better than the RS1. |
I think the biggest problem with digitals are with every new model that comes out, the temptation to update is always there....With with CRT you know you stand close to the pinnacle of PQ where with every new digital that is released the hype about how much better it is than the previous generation creates a feeling of you owning an inferior projector and it drives people to upgrade. Does that make any sense?
I watch Wall-E last night, there were several total FTB during the flick, I'm so used to that with a CRT I'm sure I would not be happy with digital yet if it only delivers FTG (Fade To Gray), so until the XG dies I'll probably stay where I am. It really doesn't make sense because you watch the movie not the black, but I think I am truly spoiled, or can I expect total FTB from digital yet?
Mike
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Last edited by MikeEby on Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | garyfritz wrote: | | I'm waiting for the LED DLPs that cycle the LEDs so fast that NObody will see rainbows. |
I'm very rainbow sensitive at a 4x color wheel like most of the 720p DLPs have. At 5x I still seem them occasionally. At 6x like some of the 1080p single chip, I see them very rarely. So, the problem is already solved for 99.999% of the time. |
I've seen 7x (if I remember right) DLPs and I still saw rainbows enough to be distracting. I personally wouldn't buy a DLP with a mechanical wheel. I'll consider a DLP when LEDs are ready, both for rainbows and for "no bulb issues."
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | WanMan wrote: | | Well, at least its not DLP. So, no rainbows. I am curious if you are viewing test-content at a distance for you to resolve the pixel resolution or if not at what distance. I guess what I am exploring is if the SDE is still a problem--been a while since I looked at a 3LCD. |
SDE and pixel visibility are different things. SDE has not been a problem since 720p LCD (last gens of 720p DLP did not have SDE problems nor have the 1400x788 LCoS machines).
No 1080p PJ of any type has SDE issues--even LCD. However, the Panny PJs all have a a lens which effectively defocuses the picture, so pixels are less visible on these than scan lines are on a good 9" CRT. |
SDE results lost space between pixels. I had no problem at 1.5x screen with seeing this gap on the Sony 720P LCD projector. BTW, I have never had any other kind of LCD projector in my home (IIRC, it was the Sony HS51. And during this time it was a current product with many talking about solutions to rid the SDE.
So, just because you could not see SDE with a 720P LCD certainly doesn't mean others (and I wasn't alone) could not.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| MikeEby wrote: | | Person99 wrote: | | overclkr wrote: | | Leo wrote: | | WanMan wrote: | | Well, at least its not DLP. So, no rainbows. I am curious if you are viewing test-content at a distance for you to resolve the pixel resolution or if not at what distance. I guess what I am exploring is if the SDE is still a problem--been a while since I looked at a 3LCD. |
Panasonic AE3000 uses what they call a smooth-screen filter to minimize SDE on lcd. SDE should be a non issue and similar to LCOS/SXRD. |
Yep, not an issue at all. This thing is basically an RS1 with better features, no glowing corners, better convergence, and is less money. The light output is actually pretty damn good.
Cliff |
The RS2 and subsequent PJs are much better than the RS1. |
I think the biggest problem with digitals are with every new model that comes out, the temptation to update is always there....With with CRT you know you stand close to the pinnacle of PQ where with every new digital that is released the hype about how much better it is than the previous generation creates a feeling of you owning an inferior projector and it drives people to upgrade. Does that make any sense? |
Yes and no. What you say was true 2 years ago--not today. Digitals have now hit the point where the last generation of them meets or exceeds the CRT. The current generation exceeds the CRT. If you are OK with CRT image quality, then you can get a better PJ like the RS2 (absolutely no independent observer will say an XG beats an RS2) and not have to upgrade just because a new digital comes out that is 200,000:1 CR.
| MikeEby wrote: | I watch Wall-E last night, there were several total FTB during the flick, I'm so used to that with a CRT I'm sure I would not be happy with digital yet if it only delivers FTG (Fade To Gray), so until the XG dies I'll probably stay where I am. It really doesn't make sense because you watch the movie not the black, but I think I am truly spoiled, or can I expect total FTB from digital yet?
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I think this is were many of you guys are not up to speed on digitals. Digitals now have CRs that match or exceed CRT. Not only do you get real fade to black, but you get shadow details and snowy scenes that are actually bright white--not dingy grey.
Funny you should mention WALL-E since I was just watching it. I've only got a lowly 720p digital with a lowly calibrated 3800:1 CR in the theater now. So, yes, on the 4 seconds of the film that has fade to black, the XG will look better. On the other 5876 seconds of the film WALL-E, I'll happily put my current 647:1 ANSI CR, 9.5' wide 12.5 ftL set up against any XG on the planet. I'll bet you a large sum of money that the majority (and a large one at that) of observers would pick my current lowly set up.
If I had an RS2 or comparable in a CIH set up, then I'm pretty sure it would be 100% would pick the digital. I have to agree with Guy Kuo on this one who has said the RS2 is a better projector than every single XG he has replaced with one.
If you have not really seen what well set up digitals can do (and I'm not talking ones in stores), then you really should find a local one, it will change your conceptions.
Perhaps I'll do a meet in Dallas for the CRT guys.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
Last edited by Person99 on Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| WanMan wrote: | | Person99 wrote: | | WanMan wrote: | | Well, at least its not DLP. So, no rainbows. I am curious if you are viewing test-content at a distance for you to resolve the pixel resolution or if not at what distance. I guess what I am exploring is if the SDE is still a problem--been a while since I looked at a 3LCD. |
SDE and pixel visibility are different things. SDE has not been a problem since 720p LCD (last gens of 720p DLP did not have SDE problems nor have the 1400x788 LCoS machines).
No 1080p PJ of any type has SDE issues--even LCD. However, the Panny PJs all have a a lens which effectively defocuses the picture, so pixels are less visible on these than scan lines are on a good 9" CRT. |
SDE results lost space between pixels. I had no problem at 1.5x screen with seeing this gap on the Sony 720P LCD projector. BTW, I have never had any other kind of LCD projector in my home (IIRC, it was the Sony HS51. And during this time it was a current product with many talking about solutions to rid the SDE.
So, just because you could not see SDE with a 720P LCD certainly doesn't mean others (and I wasn't alone) could not. |
I said "SDE has not been a problem since 720p LCD"--in other words, 720p LCDs were the last PJs to have SDE problems.
Then you said--"I had no problem at 1.5x screen width [spelling correction mine] seeing this gap on the Sony 720p LCD projector".
Uh, do you actually read posts before you comment? You simply stated what I had already said.  So, what was the point?
As I've commented elsewhere, I think the HS51 has horrible SDE (as all 720p LCDs due but the Pannys). SDE is visible up to about 1.7x width and pixel visibility to over 2.1x screen width.
But, we are talking about current projectors available in the $2500+ range, not 5 year old models!!!
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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"Then you said--"I had no problem at 1.5x screen width [spelling correction mine] seeing this gap on the Sony 720p LCD projector"."
Should have been, "Then you said--"I had no problem seeing SDE at 1.5x screen width [spelling correction mine] seeing this gap on the Sony 720p LCD projector"."
BTW, I never confuse LCD with LCoS. I actually like the fact that LCoS has a nice high fill factor and presents a smooth image much like a CRT. My concern with LCoS is low device CR.
And I am not commenting on the OP and his guest--I'd wish I was there with my eyes to see how the LCD platform has developed.
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Leo
Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: |
Yes and no. What you say was true 2 years ago--not today. Digitals have now hit the point where the last generation of them meets or exceeds the CRT. The current generation exceeds the CRT. If you are OK with CRT image quality, then you can get a better PJ like the RS2 (absolutely no independent observer will say an XG beats an RS2) and not have to upgrade just because a new digital comes out that is 200,000:1 CR.
I think this is were many of you guys are not up to speed on digitals. Digitals now have CRs that match or exceed CRT. Not only do you get real fade to black, but you get shadow details and snowy scenes that are actually bright white--not dingy grey.
Funny you should mention WALL-E since I was just watching it. I've only got a lowly 720p digital with a lowly calibrated 3800:1 CR in the theater now. So, yes, on the 4 seconds of the film that has fade to black, the XG will look better. On the other 5876 seconds of the film WALL-E, I'll happily put my current 647:1 ANSI CR, 9.5' wide 12.5 ftL set up against any XG on the planet. I'll bet you a large sum of money that the majority (and a large one at that) of observers would pick my current lowly set up.
If I had an RS2 or comparable in a CIH set up, then I'm pretty sure it would be 100% would pick the digital. I have to agree with Guy Kuo on this one who has said the RS2 is a better projector than every single XG he has replaced with one.
If you have not really seen what well set up digitals can do (and I'm not talking ones in stores), then you really should find a local one, it will change your conceptions.
Perhaps I'll do a meet in Dallas for the CRT guys. |
Whether a digital will best a CRT in most areas is still largely dependent on the model of digital projector. There is enough variation that I can't recommend blind buying any digital projector. However, even in the $1000+- range if you can find a 720 DLP with good ansi contrast and 4k-6k on/off, I do agree with you. I would still miss the stratospheric simultaneous contrast, fade to blacks, and the natural image that raster scanning and pixel blending produces.
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wallace123456
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Northwest VA area
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | BTW, getting back to the title of this thread.. I'd change the word 'special' to one in quotations.
Why? Because putting a digital in a room with a G90 stack is akin to bringing a whore to a black tie affair.  |
I agree. It's like an "oxy-moron". Jumbo shrimp? Digital and g90 stack?
wallace
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CRT_Ben
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1684
Location: Northern Virginia
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:05 am Post subject: |
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| Leo wrote: | | I would still miss the stratospheric simultaneous contrast...that raster scanning and pixel blending produces. |
??? Simultaneous contrast = ansi? Because CRTs have pretty poor ansi, even LC CRTs.
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overclkr
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 4227
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:10 am Post subject: |
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| wallace123456 wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | BTW, getting back to the title of this thread.. I'd change the word 'special' to one in quotations.
Why? Because putting a digital in a room with a G90 stack is akin to bringing a whore to a black tie affair. |
I agree. It's like an "oxy-moron". Jumbo shrimp? Digital and g90 stack?
wallace |
What's up big dog! I still have the little bugger here and need to take some screenshots for you guys hopefully in the next couple of days.
Nice little machine for the price. Great motion (doesn't suffer from the slow panels like in the RS1), has very close to RS1 brightness without the bright corners at 0 ire, very sharp, respectable (not even close to crt), but respectable blacks.
If the economy didn't suck so bad right now, I'd get one to use for every day viewing for sure!!!!!
Cliffy
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Leo
Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:27 am Post subject: |
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| CRT_Ben wrote: | | Leo wrote: | | I would still miss the stratospheric simultaneous contrast...that raster scanning and pixel blending produces. |
??? Simultaneous contrast = ansi? Because CRTs have pretty poor ansi, even LC CRTs. |
Simultaneous or intra-scene contrast is potentially as high as the native on/off (which for crt could be 2001:1 or 600,000:1 depending on the scene). These terms apply to any content. CRTs will have very high simultaneous contrast on dark scenes because of their ability to render large areas of the picture black producing a very 3-dimensional picture (even despite their low ansi).
Ansi contrast however refers to measurements derived from only black/white checkerboard patterns and thus only references content where there is an equal mix of bright and dark picture areas. Ansi is usually a good indicator of the light scatter qualities and MTF/per pixel resolution of a projector. For projectors Ansi contrast is usually below 1000:1.
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wallace123456
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Northwest VA area
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:59 am Post subject: |
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| overclkr wrote: | | wallace123456 wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | BTW, getting back to the title of this thread.. I'd change the word 'special' to one in quotations.
Why? Because putting a digital in a room with a G90 stack is akin to bringing a whore to a black tie affair. |
I agree. It's like an "oxy-moron". Jumbo shrimp? Digital and g90 stack?
wallace |
What's up big dog! I still have the little bugger here and need to take some screenshots for you guys hopefully in the next couple of days.
Nice little machine for the price. Great motion (doesn't suffer from the slow panels like in the RS1), has very close to RS1 brightness without the bright corners at 0 ire, very sharp, respectable (not even close to crt), but respectable blacks.
If the economy didn't suck so bad right now, I'd get one to use for every day viewing for sure!!!!!
Cliffy |
Not much. SOS  . Don't get used to that thing. Or better yet, watch it for a good long time, then, turn the stack back on.  It'll make you be thankful for the stack.... 
We need to hook up soon.
wallace
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CRT_Ben
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1684
Location: Northern Virginia
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:11 am Post subject: |
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| Leo wrote: | | CRT_Ben wrote: | | Leo wrote: | | I would still miss the stratospheric simultaneous contrast...that raster scanning and pixel blending produces. |
??? Simultaneous contrast = ansi? Because CRTs have pretty poor ansi, even LC CRTs. |
Simultaneous or intra-scene contrast is potentially as high as the native on/off (which for crt could be 2001:1 or 600,000:1 depending on the scene). These terms apply to any content. CRTs will have very high simultaneous contrast on dark scenes because of their ability to render large areas of the picture black producing a very 3-dimensional picture (even despite their low ansi).
Ansi contrast however refers to measurements derived from only black/white checkerboard patterns and thus only references content where there is an equal mix of bright and dark picture areas. Ansi is usually a good indicator of the light scatter qualities and MTF/per pixel resolution of a projector. For projectors Ansi contrast is usually below 1000:1. |
Ok, so you're talking about a situation like a black, starry sky. Very low APL with extremely bright points / small areas of white.
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