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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| dropzone7 wrote: | | Person99 wrote: |
You can also brag to people when they come over. Point out then when they watch a movie--they are watching it a 60 Hz with the 3:2 pull down and judder. When they watch it at your house it is shown at 72 Hz JUST LIKE IN A COMMERCIAL THEATER!  |
...and in doing so I could fully affirm their belief that I am in fact...a dork. 
When my wife has trouble getting to sleep she asks me to talk to her about home theater. |
Hey, geek has become cool (or at least that is what I keep telling myself!).
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:52 am Post subject: |
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Mike,
> If you have any luck getting that information let me know. <
I'll let the Forum know, either way it goes, once I know something more. I suspect GaryM will be interested as well. I expect this is something that could take several weeks to get action on, so it won't be immediate. But I won't fail to keep you updated.
If/when I do get the comm specs, I'll probably whip up something simple for starters (an editing utility), that can load/save curves, and do simple single point updating. That probably won't be very comfortable to use (due to the number of data points), but will do the basic job and be easy to implement.
What I'd like to do (and have no idea when I'd have time) would be a graphic GUI that allows for dragging adjustment points, with elasticity that drags a controllable set of neighboring points along with parametric proportionality. I.e., you select the "neighborhood" and "pull factor", which will serve to eliminate banding due to too sharp transitions. (Or even wilder, something that uses one of the graphics pads I bought years ago and never used, that would allow curves to simply be drawn by hand, really quickly.)
dropzone7:
> When my wife has trouble getting to sleep she asks me to talk to her about home theater. <
LOL. The perfect soporific! 
_________________
- Tim
Last edited by VideoGrabber on Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:14 am; edited 2 times in total
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wallace123456
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Northwest VA area
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:10 am Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | dropzone7 wrote: | | Well, I set up a profile for 72hz "locked" last night and I really like the difference. |
Is this with a 24 Hz input (i.e. 1080p/24 in)? If it is 60 Hz in, then it should ignore the fact that it is "locked" since it cannot lock the inbound and outbound framerates because they are not an even multiple.
So, is it 24 or 60 Hz in. If it is 60 Hz, would someone please explain the "locked" functionality of the VP50?
Thanks, |
The locked function is in reference to the output. Rex and I only have 1 HDMI input into the vp50. The vp50 will take whatever it gets 24 (BD player) or 60 (toshiba player) and use the appropriate output (24 in, 72 out; 60 in, 60 out).
But, my beef is that I can't get 24 out of my xa2. This is where my brain is even deader than before. Why wont the xa2 send out 24?
wallace
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:29 am Post subject: |
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Dave commented:
> the 11 point in the lumagen was sufficient as I just "bunched up" the lower few a bit more than the default every 10 IRE 0-100 to create a nice smooth reshaped curve to bring it out of black a little faster a la what we do on CRTs. <
Yes, the Lumagens are excellent with this. The parametric control is very usable, and great when you have a modest number of points to correct (the usual case). The only time it would fall short is if you needed to burn several of your set-points to correct one area, and ran out of points to correct other problem areas. I don't know of any case that has ever happened though. The VP50 (if it worked as advertised) would be technically superiior in this area, but not as easy to use (unless there was some fancy PC hosted software). As it is, the Lumagen is ahead.
> When I first looked at it, I thought it is was equal to or inferior to the Lumagen in all ways but having HDMI ports and audio delay. Since you seem to understand both, what would you say its current state is compare to an HDP? <
They're both excellent in terms of core functionality, and each has it's own set of unique capabilities that sets it apart. I wouldn't say either is inferior to the other... simply that different design decisions were made, and with some different priorities. As a result, one will be a better match for some folks, while the other would be "best" for other people. So I'd consider them equal, but different.
If you want me to break it down into what unique capabilities each one has, let me know and I'll see if I can find my notes I did on that. It did go beyond just the audio LipSync and HDMI in/outs for the VP50, though.
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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Not to break up you guys Lumangen vs. DVDO discussion but I do have a new issue here. I think this is more projector related than scaler, in fact I'm sure it is. I now have a signal entry setup for 60hz sources like my HD DVD player and cable box and another signal entry for 72hz for my BD player sending 1080p/24. My issue is with the 72hz signal entry in that I have some strange waviness going on at the far left edge of my horizontal lines top to bottom. With a displayed image it manifests itself as a sort of vertical band that appears discolored compared to the rest of the image. It's mostly distracting in a very bright scene. When I switch over to my 60hz signal entry and check my crosshatch grid, the waviness is not there. Any ideas what might be going on here?
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| wallace123456 wrote: |
But, my beef is that I can't get 24 out of my xa2. This is where my brain is even deader than before. Why wont the xa2 send out 24?
wallace |
This is because the XA2 was built before the chips that and displays that handled it were really available.
If you want a locked output, may I suggest a used or refurbed LG BH100 or BH200 both available reasonably priced these days. They will do 1080p/24 to the lumagen for your HD DVDs. They also do 480i HDMI to a Lumagen (not a VP50 because they don't have the required functionality). Lastly, if you like its blu-ray output at least as much as your current BD player, you can have a single device.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| dropzone7 wrote: | | Not to break up you guys Lumangen vs. DVDO discussion but I do have a new issue here. I think this is more projector related than scaler, in fact I'm sure it is. I now have a signal entry setup for 60hz sources like my HD DVD player and cable box and another signal entry for 72hz for my BD player sending 1080p/24. My issue is with the 72hz signal entry in that I have some strange waviness going on at the far left edge of my horizontal lines top to bottom. With a displayed image it manifests itself as a sort of vertical band that appears discolored compared to the rest of the image. It's mostly distracting in a very bright scene. When I switch over to my 60hz signal entry and check my crosshatch grid, the waviness is not there. Any ideas what might be going on here? |
It could be a variety of things. If it is "noise" then if the VP50 works like the lumagen, you will have to adjust the input size to fix it.
It could be PJ related.
If it is only 1 pixel top and bottom, you could eliminate it with either the PJs or the VPs blanking.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| VideoGrabber wrote: | Dave commented:
> the 11 point in the lumagen was sufficient as I just "bunched up" the lower few a bit more than the default every 10 IRE 0-100 to create a nice smooth reshaped curve to bring it out of black a little faster a la what we do on CRTs. <
Yes, the Lumagens are excellent with this. The parametric control is very usable, and great when you have a modest number of points to correct (the usual case). The only time it would fall short is if you needed to burn several of your set-points to correct one area, and ran out of points to correct other problem areas. I don't know of any case that has ever happened though. The VP50 (if it worked as advertised) would be technically superiior in this area, but not as easy to use (unless there was some fancy PC hosted software). As it is, the Lumagen is ahead. |
I have to disagree with the final point here. Just because it has 1024 points does not imply it will be better. Since 11 has always proven to be enough and the parametric functionality works well. You can't conclude that:
1) The DVDO will work correctly, or
2) There is some display out there as yet undiscovered that needs more than the 11 parametric
| VideoGrabber wrote: | | If you want me to break it down into what unique capabilities each one has, let me know and I'll see if I can find my notes I did on that. It did go beyond just the audio LipSync and HDMI in/outs for the VP50, though. |
Heck, just scan in the notes and send them to me. A couple things about the VP50 made it a non-starter for me, so I didn't go this far.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | dropzone7 wrote: | | Not to break up you guys Lumangen vs. DVDO discussion but I do have a new issue here. I think this is more projector related than scaler, in fact I'm sure it is. I now have a signal entry setup for 60hz sources like my HD DVD player and cable box and another signal entry for 72hz for my BD player sending 1080p/24. My issue is with the 72hz signal entry in that I have some strange waviness going on at the far left edge of my horizontal lines top to bottom. With a displayed image it manifests itself as a sort of vertical band that appears discolored compared to the rest of the image. It's mostly distracting in a very bright scene. When I switch over to my 60hz signal entry and check my crosshatch grid, the waviness is not there. Any ideas what might be going on here? |
It could be a variety of things. If it is "noise" then if the VP50 works like the lumagen, you will have to adjust the input size to fix it.
It could be PJ related.
If it is only 1 pixel top and bottom, you could eliminate it with either the PJs or the VPs blanking. |
Yeah, it's a bit wider than that. Probably about 2 to 3 inches on the far left border of the screen. You are correct that I can eliminate it with blanking but then my image is not large enough to fill the screen.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| dropzone7 wrote: | | Person99 wrote: | | dropzone7 wrote: | | Not to break up you guys Lumangen vs. DVDO discussion but I do have a new issue here. I think this is more projector related than scaler, in fact I'm sure it is. I now have a signal entry setup for 60hz sources like my HD DVD player and cable box and another signal entry for 72hz for my BD player sending 1080p/24. My issue is with the 72hz signal entry in that I have some strange waviness going on at the far left edge of my horizontal lines top to bottom. With a displayed image it manifests itself as a sort of vertical band that appears discolored compared to the rest of the image. It's mostly distracting in a very bright scene. When I switch over to my 60hz signal entry and check my crosshatch grid, the waviness is not there. Any ideas what might be going on here? |
It could be a variety of things. If it is "noise" then if the VP50 works like the lumagen, you will have to adjust the input size to fix it.
It could be PJ related.
If it is only 1 pixel top and bottom, you could eliminate it with either the PJs or the VPs blanking. |
Yeah, it's a bit wider than that. Probably about 2 to 3 inches on the far left border of the screen. You are correct that I can eliminate it with blanking but then my image is not large enough to fill the screen. |
Just for fun, trying using the VP50's zoom function (assuming it has one). See if zooming in 5% eliminates it. If it does, it probably needs to be handled by input sizing or something. If it does not, then it is in the PJ.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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wallace123456
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Northwest VA area
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:06 am Post subject: |
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Ok, what a dumb ass I am. I changed the xa2 output "frame rate" from auto, to 1080/24hz. BAM!!! 24hz output to the vp50!!!!
And, it looks great! The opening scene on the Harry Potter movie looks even better than before (just a little). But, now I need to go back and watch all my HD-DVDs again... 
I think it was set to this when Ken was here, but I might have lost that setting when I upgraded to the latest rev.
Oh well, I'm good-to-go now........................................... 
vp50 input/output
xa2 menu setting
wallace
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| wallace123456 wrote: |
Oh well, I'm good-to-go now...........................................
wallace |
Don, good to hear that you got that worked out! I'm sure the XA2 makes a great image. I'm still on the look out for an A35 or XA2 but they are still going for crazy prices. By the way, why are you not outputting 4:2:2 color space from the XA2?
I tried to fix my squiggly line problem on my 72hz signal entry last night. I think I got it a tad bit better but it's still there. Dave, I tried your suggestion of zooming using the VP50 and while this did hide the problem, it didn't fix it and puts the overall image beyond the dimensions of my screen. On another note, just for fun I tried the vertical zooming in the VP50 on a scope movie and filled the entire 16:9 screen. The resulting image was surprisingly watchable though I would probably never watch a scope movie this way. I tried doing my convergence again on that 72hz entry to try and cure the squiglly line and vertical banding effect I'm seeing. As I said, it got a little better but it's still there. I don't really understand why this would manifest itself at 72hz but not at 60hz.
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wallace123456
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Northwest VA area
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| dropzone7 wrote: | | wallace123456 wrote: |
Oh well, I'm good-to-go now...........................................
wallace |
Don, good to hear that you got that worked out! I'm sure the XA2 makes a great image. I'm still on the look out for an A35 or XA2 but they are still going for crazy prices. By the way, why are you not outputting 4:2:2 color space from the XA2?
I tried to fix my squiggly line problem on my 72hz signal entry last night. I think I got it a tad bit better but it's still there. Dave, I tried your suggestion of zooming using the VP50 and while this did hide the problem, it didn't fix it and puts the overall image beyond the dimensions of my screen. On another note, just for fun I tried the vertical zooming in the VP50 on a scope movie and filled the entire 16:9 screen. The resulting image was surprisingly watchable though I would probably never watch a scope movie this way. I tried doing my convergence again on that 72hz entry to try and cure the squiglly line and vertical banding effect I'm seeing. As I said, it got a little better but it's still there. I don't really understand why this would manifest itself at 72hz but not at 60hz. |
Could the squiggly line be caused by phase not being adjusted? That was one of my problems in the begining.
wallace
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| wallace123456 wrote: |
Could the squiggly line be caused by phase not being adjusted? That was one of my problems in the begining.
wallace |
Well, that was one of my guesses but it turned out not to be the problem. I must have adjust phase like ten times last night hoping it would make a difference in those squiggly lines near the far left border. No dice.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| dropzone7 wrote: | | Dave, I tried your suggestion of zooming using the VP50 and while this did hide the problem, it didn't fix it and puts the overall image beyond the dimensions of my screen. |
If you zoom the image, it should not spill over the screen, just crop parts.
But, the suggestion to zoom was a diagnostic suggestion, not a fix.
If zooming did make the problem go away, then the problem is not your PJ (as it gets a signal that looks the same zoomed or not--same res, same refresh). Thus, the problem is the source or the VP50.
I would try any input adjustments the VP50 might have. Here is where you need a DVDO guy. I could tell you what to play with on a Lumagen, but not on a VP50.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Gary M.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| dropzone7 wrote: | | wallace123456 wrote: |
Could the squiggly line be caused by phase not being adjusted? That was one of my problems in the begining.
wallace |
Well, that was one of my guesses but it turned out not to be the problem. I must have adjust phase like ten times last night hoping it would make a difference in those squiggly lines near the far left border. No dice. |
want to know how to get rid of raster ringing and other edge abnormalities?, expand the horz size about 10% too big on the XG(5% over on each side and clear all blanking to make sure where you are at), then go into the VP50 and use the porch control to bring the image back in, no more lines, ringing etc., a 100% clean image
to do this on the VP50 you make sure it is in advanced mode, then under output you can select the resolution and then move over to the right and you will see a complete custom powerstrip type listing for that resolution, take the left and right horz numbers (I forget what they are called) higher and you will see the sides of your image come back in, do this until proper screen size is correct, after adjusting this on the vp50 you will see your resolution is now under user, go down and save the profile to whatever number you want, that way it is saved for good
after doing this your internal XG patterns will be off screen a bit and convergence areas will be off screen, no biggie, you should use external patterns anyway and convergence still works perfectly fine
-Gary
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:24 am Post subject: |
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| Gary M. wrote: |
after doing this your internal XG patterns will be off screen a bit and convergence areas will be off screen, no biggie, you should use external patterns anyway and convergence still works perfectly fine
-Gary |
Yep, I always use an external pattern too.
Mike
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Last edited by MikeEby on Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Gary M. wrote: | | dropzone7 wrote: | | wallace123456 wrote: |
Could the squiggly line be caused by phase not being adjusted? That was one of my problems in the begining.
wallace |
Well, that was one of my guesses but it turned out not to be the problem. I must have adjust phase like ten times last night hoping it would make a difference in those squiggly lines near the far left border. No dice. |
want to know how to get rid of raster ringing and other edge abnormalities?, expand the horz size about 10% too big on the XG(5% over on each side and clear all blanking to make sure where you are at), then go into the VP50 and use the porch control to bring the image back in, no more lines, ringing etc., a 100% clean image
to do this on the VP50 you make sure it is in advanced mode, then under output you can select the resolution and then move over to the right and you will see a complete custom powerstrip type listing for that resolution, take the left and right horz numbers (I forget what they are called) higher and you will see the sides of your image come back in, do this until proper screen size is correct, after adjusting this on the vp50 you will see your resolution is now under user, go down and save the profile to whatever number you want, that way it is saved for good
after doing this your internal XG patterns will be off screen a bit and convergence areas will be off screen, no biggie, you should use external patterns anyway and convergence still works perfectly fine
-Gary |
Gary, thanks for the pointers. I will have to give that a go tonight. Dam end of year company meetings and parties the past two days left me with no time to work this out. I'm still curious why this would be a problem at 72hz but not at 60hz. Would there be any reason for me to delete that 72hz entry and start from scratch just in case there are errors or something?
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wallace123456
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Northwest VA area
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| dropzone7 wrote: | | Gary M. wrote: | | dropzone7 wrote: | | wallace123456 wrote: |
Could the squiggly line be caused by phase not being adjusted? That was one of my problems in the begining.
wallace |
Well, that was one of my guesses but it turned out not to be the problem. I must have adjust phase like ten times last night hoping it would make a difference in those squiggly lines near the far left border. No dice. |
want to know how to get rid of raster ringing and other edge abnormalities?, expand the horz size about 10% too big on the XG(5% over on each side and clear all blanking to make sure where you are at), then go into the VP50 and use the porch control to bring the image back in, no more lines, ringing etc., a 100% clean image
to do this on the VP50 you make sure it is in advanced mode, then under output you can select the resolution and then move over to the right and you will see a complete custom powerstrip type listing for that resolution, take the left and right horz numbers (I forget what they are called) higher and you will see the sides of your image come back in, do this until proper screen size is correct, after adjusting this on the vp50 you will see your resolution is now under user, go down and save the profile to whatever number you want, that way it is saved for good
after doing this your internal XG patterns will be off screen a bit and convergence areas will be off screen, no biggie, you should use external patterns anyway and convergence still works perfectly fine
-Gary |
Gary, thanks for the pointers. I will have to give that a go tonight. Dam end of year company meetings and parties the past two days left me with no time to work this out. I'm still curious why this would be a problem at 72hz but not at 60hz. Would there be any reason for me to delete that 72hz entry and start from scratch just in case there are errors or something? |
Maybe at least make a copy of it first. Did you set up the pj at a 72 or 60hz setting for the first one?
wallace
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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Don, the first setup was done at 60hz since the only source I have that will do 1080p/24 is the Blu Ray player. When it's first turned on it's sending 1080p/60, then switches to 1080p/24 when the movie starts. That's when the 72hz signal entry kicks in. It's kind of a pain too because the projector is jumping back and forth between that 60hz and 72hz entry depending on what is being displayed at the time. For instance, I played some of Kung Fu Panda the other night and the projector would jump back and forth between entries when the previews, green screens were playing.
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