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Gary M.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | dropzone7 wrote: |
I tried 72hz briefly but I think Gary talked me out of it. I'm sending 1080p/24 from the BD30 Blu Ray and outputting 1080i/60hz locked from the VP50. I may try another setup at 72hz just to see how it looks now that my judder problem is gone. |
Yes, don't let Gary talk you out of it. He says he cannot see the horrid judder of 60 Hz--which puts him in a very small minority because if you are really a film freak there is no way you are not going to see it sometimes. To me 60 Hz is what you "accept" if you don't want to go 1080p/24 digi PJ, scaler, or HTPC. It should NEVER be the target resolution for film watching. |
just a quick correction, I can see the judder at 60hz but 72hz makes me sick(literally) to watch, can't stand it mainly due to the micro judder becoming much more in your face, it is worse than the pan judder at 60hz
lesser of two evils type deal 
-Gary
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wallace123456
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Northwest VA area
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| Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| dropzone7 wrote: | | Don, are you using any gamma adjustments from within the VP50? I see that there is a range of adjustment for each color available in the picture adjustment menu. My gamma is being done by the Moome card right now and I have not tried to adjust it since I got this card from Gary and he had it dialed in already. I may need to change it a bit after I redo the greyscale though. |
No gamma via the vp50. Moome ext box does that.
I don't have either video material Dave spoke of. I use the BD DVE for that. I just spent some time playing it and the only 1080p material that I could just barely (and I mean ever so slightly) see judder was the clip of the NASA scene. There is one 8-10 second peice where the camera pans from bottom to top of the space shuttle and you can see it there. At least I think it is judder as by some chance that might be the way the video was shot.
Also, as for the output setting, I leave the 24hz to 72hz alone, and the 60hz to 60hz as well. The vp50 actual outputs 71.93 (vp50 will only go 2 places past the decimal; so it rounds up to .93).
wallace
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| wallace123456 wrote: | | dropzone7 wrote: | | Don, are you using any gamma adjustments from within the VP50? I see that there is a range of adjustment for each color available in the picture adjustment menu. My gamma is being done by the Moome card right now and I have not tried to adjust it since I got this card from Gary and he had it dialed in already. I may need to change it a bit after I redo the greyscale though. |
No gamma via the vp50. Moome ext box does that.
I don't have either video material Dave spoke of. I use the BD DVE for that. I just spent some time playing it and the only 1080p material that I could just barely (and I mean ever so slightly) see judder was the clip of the NASA scene. There is one 8-10 second peice where the camera pans from bottom to top of the space shuttle and you can see it there. At least I think it is judder as by some chance that might be the way the video was shot.
Also, as for the output setting, I leave the 24hz to 72hz alone, and the 60hz to 60hz as well. The vp50 actual outputs 71.93 (vp50 will only go 2 places past the decimal; so it rounds up to .93).
wallace |
Thanks Don. I have that BD DVE disc and I know the NASA sequence pretty well. I will have to check that out and see how it goes. So it sounds like you are using 72hz "locked" and the VP50 information screen shows the actual frequency as 71.93.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| wallace123456 wrote: |
No gamma via the vp50. |
Really? Still? I thought they were going to add this?
Chalk up another advantage for the Lumagen.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| dropzone7 wrote: | | Also, does anyone have a video clip example of judder so I can verify that I'm using the correct terminology here? |
One shot I noticed jutter really bad was the opening scene in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Blu-ray. There's a long shot of the town and a slow pan that ends up looking down on the playground. The shot is a little soft I think but at 60Hz on an HTPC the jutter was bad.
Mike
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wallace123456
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Northwest VA area
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| Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | wallace123456 wrote: |
No gamma via the vp50. |
Really? Still? I thought they were going to add this?
Chalk up another advantage for the Lumagen. |
If I could afford a Lumagen, I'd have one.
The vp50 does gama; I'm just not using it.
wallace
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| wallace123456 wrote: | | Person99 wrote: | | wallace123456 wrote: |
No gamma via the vp50. |
Really? Still? I thought they were going to add this?
Chalk up another advantage for the Lumagen. |
If I could afford a Lumagen, I'd have one.
The vp50 does gama; I'm just not using it.
wallace |
I thought it did Gamma. Due to the cheap refurb price on them, I'm trying to figure out what it does to see if it is good for a friend.
The Lumagen has selectable 5 or 11 point gamma. Does the VP50 has just "basic" gamma (i.e. simply changing the exponent--e.g. 2.2, 2.35, etc), or does it have a multi-point function that lets you reshape the curve?
IIRC when it came out it just had basic, but they were supposed to add the multi-point.
If it has multi-point, why would you use something else to do the gamma? This would allow better tweaking of the curve than Kim's or moome's function.
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Dave
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wallace123456
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Northwest VA area
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| Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| MikeEby wrote: | One shot I noticed jutter really bad was the opening scene in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Blu-ray. There's a long shot of the town and a slow pan that ends up looking down on the playground. The shot is a little soft I think but at 60Hz on an HTPC the jutter was bad.
Mike |
Mike,
I just looked at the clip and mine is smooth as silk.. Really, it is smooth.
| dropzone7 wrote: | | So it sounds like you are using 72hz "locked" and the VP50 information screen shows the actual frequency as 71.93. |
Rex,
Yes, and for 60hz, the vp50 is locked on 60hz output. It is sending 59.94hz
wallace
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wallace123456
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Northwest VA area
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| Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | wallace123456 wrote: | | Person99 wrote: | | wallace123456 wrote: |
No gamma via the vp50. |
Really? Still? I thought they were going to add this?
Chalk up another advantage for the Lumagen. |
If I could afford a Lumagen, I'd have one.
The vp50 does gama; I'm just not using it.
wallace |
I thought it did Gamma. Due to the cheap refurb price on them, I'm trying to figure out what it does to see if it is good for a friend.
The Lumagen has selectable 5 or 11 point gamma. Does the VP50 has just "basic" gamma (i.e. simply changing the exponent--e.g. 2.2, 2.35, etc), or does it have a multi-point function that lets you reshape the curve?
IIRC when it came out it just had basic, but they were supposed to add the multi-point.
If it has multi-point, why would you use something else to do the gamma? This would allow better tweaking of the curve than Kim's or moome's function. |
It is basic from what you are describing as basic or multi-point. The setting allow you to go up 15 points, and down 5 points (clicks on the remote) from zero (1.0 on the menu) reference. What that translates into as far as "how much" color is being added or removed, I don't know.
wallace
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:40 am Post subject: |
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Dave commented on the VP50:
> I thought it did Gamma. The Lumagen has selectable 5 or 11 point gamma. Does the VP50 has just "basic" gamma (i.e. simply changing the exponent--e.g. 2.2, 2.35, etc), or does it have a multi-point function that lets you reshape the curve? <
It has both. And it doesn't.  The basic gamma allows for each of R/G/B to be set to a desired exponent, though I'm not sure where individual primary control of a global parameter like this would be useful.
As you mentioned, they were going to add multi-point control, and they did. "1024 point Gamma individual RGB correction" in fact. While that's a lot more precise than Lumagen's 11-point correction, in that case it's parametric (meaning the set points can be moved), where on the VP50, they're fixed... just lots more of them. So basically, a PITA to adjust, especially since you really need smooth curves, to avoid banding from abrupt, large transitions.
The "it doesn't" part was that while the capability is there in the hardware, they never implemented any way to adjust the points in the OSD/GUI. So it's almost worthless, since it's unlikely at this stage that they'll spend that much effort. The potential saving grace is that I've been told by Dale that the functionality IS accessible via the serial control protocol (which is undocumented, other than possibly some internal engineering specs or notes). I'm petitioning DVDO to release those docs, so I can write my own control app.
That way, they can make good on their claim for this feature, which is still prominently advertised on their web page, and yet still inaccessible after all these years.
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- Tim
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: |
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| MikeEby wrote: | | dropzone7 wrote: | | Also, does anyone have a video clip example of judder so I can verify that I'm using the correct terminology here? |
One shot I noticed jutter really bad was the opening scene in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Blu-ray. There's a long shot of the town and a slow pan that ends up looking down on the playground. The shot is a little soft I think but at 60Hz on an HTPC the jutter was bad.
Mike |
Hey that was my test scene with the HDFury1 at 1080i/96Hz on my Sony G520P CRT monitor. Man that was beautiful. Sooo smooth
At 60Hz it hurt my eyes.
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| VideoGrabber wrote: | The potential saving grace is that I've been told by Dale that the functionality IS accessible via the serial control protocol (which is undocumented, other than possibly some internal engineering specs or notes). I'm petitioning DVDO to release those docs, so I can write my own control app.
That way, they can make good on their claim for this feature, which is still prominently advertised on their web page, and yet still inaccessible after all these years. |
If you have any luck getting that informations let me know. That could be the tipping point for me on getting a VP50. Sounds like a fun little project.
Mike
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I set up a profile for 72hz "locked" last night and I really like the difference. I tried several different tests with pans across the screen and fast action and it was MUCH smoother running at 72hz. It took me a while to figure out why I could not save a profile. Apparently the factory default after upgrading the firmware was to set the user mode to standard rather than advanced. I don't think "standard" was the exact terminology but I did need to set this to "advanced" in order to save profiles in the VP50. Once I figured that out I set up a profile for 1080i/72hz, 4:2:2 color space and a second profile for 1080i/60hz, 4:2:2 color space. I love the fact that I can shift the image in any direction and the curtain feature is pretty cool. I watched a little bit of HD cable last night and the image looked much improved to me. Even the Charlie Brown Christmas special looked pretty good.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| VideoGrabber wrote: | Dave commented on the VP50:
> I thought it did Gamma. The Lumagen has selectable 5 or 11 point gamma. Does the VP50 has just "basic" gamma (i.e. simply changing the exponent--e.g. 2.2, 2.35, etc), or does it have a multi-point function that lets you reshape the curve? <
It has both. And it doesn't. The basic gamma allows for each of R/G/B to be set to a desired exponent, though I'm not sure where individual primary control of a global parameter like this would be useful.
As you mentioned, they were going to add multi-point control, and they did. "1024 point Gamma individual RGB correction" in fact. While that's a lot more precise than Lumagen's 11-point correction, in that case it's parametric (meaning the set points can be moved), where on the VP50, they're fixed... just lots more of them. So basically, a PITA to adjust, especially since you really need smooth curves, to avoid banding from abrupt, large transitions.
The "it doesn't" part was that while the capability is there in the hardware, they never implemented any way to adjust the points in the OSD/GUI. So it's almost worthless, since it's unlikely at this stage that they'll spend that much effort. The potential saving grace is that I've been told by Dale that the functionality IS accessible via the serial control protocol (which is undocumented, other than possibly some internal engineering specs or notes). I'm petitioning DVDO to release those docs, so I can write my own control app.
That way, they can make good on their claim for this feature, which is still prominently advertised on their web page, and yet still inaccessible after all these years. |
Wow, thanks Tim!
So, probably not good for someone that wants to tweak with the gamma but can be used for all the other "basics" of VP.
You are correct. My new digi crushes black a little and the 11 point in the lumagen was sufficient as I just "bunched up" the lower few a bit more than the default every 10 IRE 0-100 to create a nice smooth reshaped curve to bring it out of black a little faster a la what we do on CRTs.
When I first looked at it, I thought it is was equal to or inferior to the Lumagen in all ways but having HDMI ports and audio delay. Since you seem to understand both, what would you say its current state is compare to an HDP?
Thanks
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| dropzone7 wrote: | | Well, I set up a profile for 72hz "locked" last night and I really like the difference. |
Is this with a 24 Hz input (i.e. 1080p/24 in)? If it is 60 Hz in, then it should ignore the fact that it is "locked" since it cannot lock the inbound and outbound framerates because they are not an even multiple.
So, is it 24 or 60 Hz in. If it is 60 Hz, would someone please explain the "locked" functionality of the VP50?
Thanks,
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Dave
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | dropzone7 wrote: | | Well, I set up a profile for 72hz "locked" last night and I really like the difference. |
Is this with a 24 Hz input (i.e. 1080p/24 in)? If it is 60 Hz in, then it should ignore the fact that it is "locked" since it cannot lock the inbound and outbound framerates because they are not an even multiple.
So, is it 24 or 60 Hz in. If it is 60 Hz, would someone please explain the "locked" functionality of the VP50?
Thanks, |
Dave, my input for the BD player is setup as 1080p/24, 4:2:2 color space and output at 1080i/72hz "locked". The display on the VP50 actually says 71.93 "locked".
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| dropzone7 wrote: | | Person99 wrote: | | dropzone7 wrote: | | Well, I set up a profile for 72hz "locked" last night and I really like the difference. |
Is this with a 24 Hz input (i.e. 1080p/24 in)? If it is 60 Hz in, then it should ignore the fact that it is "locked" since it cannot lock the inbound and outbound framerates because they are not an even multiple.
So, is it 24 or 60 Hz in. If it is 60 Hz, would someone please explain the "locked" functionality of the VP50?
Thanks, |
Dave, my input for the BD player is setup as 1080p/24, 4:2:2 color space and output at 1080i/72hz "locked". The display on the VP50 actually says 71.93 "locked". |
OK, thanks, that make sense, then it is locked.
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Dave
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | dropzone7 wrote: | | Person99 wrote: | | dropzone7 wrote: | | Well, I set up a profile for 72hz "locked" last night and I really like the difference. |
Is this with a 24 Hz input (i.e. 1080p/24 in)? If it is 60 Hz in, then it should ignore the fact that it is "locked" since it cannot lock the inbound and outbound framerates because they are not an even multiple.
So, is it 24 or 60 Hz in. If it is 60 Hz, would someone please explain the "locked" functionality of the VP50?
Thanks, |
Dave, my input for the BD player is setup as 1080p/24, 4:2:2 color space and output at 1080i/72hz "locked". The display on the VP50 actually says 71.93 "locked". |
OK, thanks, that make sense, then it is locked. |
It looks great too! Thanks Dave, Don and all you guys that told me about 72hz and framerates at a multiple of 24. I'm starting to understand this stuff a little more and it makes a huge difference in my BD playback.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| dropzone7 wrote: | | Person99 wrote: | | dropzone7 wrote: | | Person99 wrote: | | dropzone7 wrote: | | Well, I set up a profile for 72hz "locked" last night and I really like the difference. |
Is this with a 24 Hz input (i.e. 1080p/24 in)? If it is 60 Hz in, then it should ignore the fact that it is "locked" since it cannot lock the inbound and outbound framerates because they are not an even multiple.
So, is it 24 or 60 Hz in. If it is 60 Hz, would someone please explain the "locked" functionality of the VP50?
Thanks, |
Dave, my input for the BD player is setup as 1080p/24, 4:2:2 color space and output at 1080i/72hz "locked". The display on the VP50 actually says 71.93 "locked". |
OK, thanks, that make sense, then it is locked. |
It looks great too! Thanks Dave, Don and all you guys that told me about 72hz and framerates at a multiple of 24. I'm starting to understand this stuff a little more and it makes a huge difference in my BD playback. |
You can also brag to people when they come over. Point out then when they watch a movie--they are watching it a 60 Hz with the 3:2 pull down and judder. When they watch it at your house it is shown at 72 Hz JUST LIKE IN A COMMERCIAL THEATER!
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: |
You can also brag to people when they come over. Point out then when they watch a movie--they are watching it a 60 Hz with the 3:2 pull down and judder. When they watch it at your house it is shown at 72 Hz JUST LIKE IN A COMMERCIAL THEATER! |
...and in doing so I could fully affirm their belief that I am in fact...a dork. 
When my wife has trouble getting to sleep she asks me to talk to her about home theater.
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