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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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Don wrote:
> the vp50 only has 2 HDMI inputs. <
OK. Now I'm really scratching my head. My VP50 has 4 HDMI inputs, and I thought all of them did. Two?
drop explained:
> The reason I do it is because I want to bitstream the newer audio formats such as Dolby TrueHD and DTS-MA, DTS-HD from the Blu Ray player to my receiver. So, the audio gets handled by the receiver before the VP50 (which won't process those formats the way I want) ever sees them. <
That makes some sense. What would happen if you ran them all into the VP50 first, then the one HDMI out passing thru the receiver? Would you still be able to process the bitsream audio then (with video just a pass-through)? I'm assuming the VP50 HDMI does a straight pass-through on the audio side, but have no way to know for sure (no fancy new receivers here).
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wallace123456
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Northwest VA area
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| VideoGrabber wrote: | Don wrote:
> the vp50 only has 2 HDMI inputs. <
OK. Now I'm really scratching my head. My VP50 has 4 HDMI inputs, and I thought all of them did. Two? |
Oh crap. Now I gotta go look and probably (once again) show my ignorance.....  I speak before I look; not a good idea.............
wallace
Four HDMI inputs into the vp50....
wallace
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Last edited by wallace123456 on Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| wallace123456 wrote: |
I have 3 HDMI sources and the vp50 only has 2 HDMI inputs. And, I also thought it best to get the audio from the sources first (not sure why). Is there another way?
wallace |
Basically, you still have your HD DVD player. Most people have only 1 high resolution audio device, for me it is an LG combo player, for most it is only a BD player. You cable box and all those other sources do audio no better over HDMI than S/PDIF.
Thus, what I always suggest is:
1) Put and 1x2 HDMI splitter on you BD player. Send one out to the receiver, one to the VP.
2) All other sources, use the S/PDIF for output and HDMI for video only.
Since the VP50 passes audio (I think) and does audio delay, then you can do one better than the above (which is what I recommend with Lumagens):
1) Send all sources to the VP50.
2) Put a 1x2 spitter after the VP50 and send one output to PJ and one to AVR.
This way, you get to use the memory architecture and all the tweaks of the VP as designed.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Gary M.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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monoprice has nice HDMI 1.3 powered splitters for 33$ 
the best way to go is use HD-SDI for video and leave HDMI to audio, but thats another thread 
-Gary
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| wallace123456 wrote: | | dropzone7 wrote: | | Don, the first setup was done at 60hz since the only source I have that will do 1080p/24 is the Blu Ray player. When it's first turned on it's sending 1080p/60, then switches to 1080p/24 when the movie starts. That's when the 72hz signal entry kicks in. It's kind of a pain too because the projector is jumping back and forth between that 60hz and 72hz entry depending on what is being displayed at the time. For instance, I played some of Kung Fu Panda the other night and the projector would jump back and forth between entries when the previews, green screens were playing. |
Hhhmmm.. When Ken set-up mine, he used a 60hz source for the 60hz setting in the nec, and a 24hz source for the 72hz setting in the nec. Again, my set-up is a little different in that everything going to the Moome EXt box is 720p.
But, yes, the pj display will jump back and forth between 60hz and 72hz when I play a BD-DVD. I don't like it either and it sounds back hearing the pj click and snap back and forth. (In my mind, that can't be good  .) So, what I do is plug in a BD-DVD, and give it about 45-60 seconds before switching my Pioneer AVR to the BD output.
BTW, I also always run the nec warm-up screen at least twice (15 minutes each time) before watching anything. Everything gets warmed up, nice and slowwwww.
wallace |
Don, I know I have asked you about this before but that was before I had a scaler. My question is this, for your all white warm-up screen are you using the built in one from the NEC or an all white pattern from the VP50? You did say "nec warm-up screen" in your post so that may be the answer but I just thought I would ask.
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wallace123456
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Northwest VA area
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | wallace123456 wrote: |
I have 3 HDMI sources and the vp50 only has 2 HDMI inputs. And, I also thought it best to get the audio from the sources first (not sure why). Is there another way?
wallace |
Basically, you still have your HD DVD player. Most people have only 1 high resolution audio device, for me it is an LG combo player, for most it is only a BD player. You cable box and all those other sources do audio no better over HDMI than S/PDIF.
Thus, what I always suggest is:
1) Put and 1x2 HDMI splitter on you BD player. Send one out to the receiver, one to the VP.
2) All other sources, use the S/PDIF for output and HDMI for video only.
Since the VP50 passes audio (I think) and does audio delay, then you can do one better than the above (which is what I recommend with Lumagens):
1) Send all sources to the VP50.
2) Put a 1x2 spitter after the VP50 and send one output to PJ and one to AVR.
This way, you get to use the memory architecture and all the tweaks of the VP as designed. |
I understand what you are saying and it makes sense. I guess my thought and reasoning was I wanted as few items in-between the source devices and the final output (no switcher). And, if there was delay through the vp50 (the vp50 has lip-syns adjustment), I didn't want to fool with that either.
Aside from having the pj jump between 60 and 72hz on 24hz source material, doesn't the way I have it now work as well as the other methods?
Thanks.
| dropzone7 wrote: | | Don, I know I have asked you about this before but that was before I had a scaler. My question is this, for your all white warm-up screen are you using the built in one from the NEC or an all white pattern from the VP50? You did say "nec warm-up screen" in your post so that may be the answer but I just thought I would ask. |
Yes. I use the internal NEC warm-up screen for 2 periods; each period being 15 minutes.
wallace
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:16 am Post subject: |
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Wallace commented:
> if there was delay through the vp50 (the vp50 has lip-syns adjustment), I didn't want to fool with that either. <
There's a misunderstanding here.
There IS a delay through the VP50, though it may not be apparent to you. And it varies, depending on the level of processing used. You can't just avoid it... it must be there, because the video processing that's done requires some # of field intervals to work it's magic on the video side. That means the audio comes out first, because it is NOT delayed. What the VP50 offers there isn't extra complexity. It's the simplicity of having whatever source/processing you run on the video side, have its audio synced up (delayed) automatically to match.
It's only when there is a delay from some other source that you'd need to take advantage of the VP50's other capability... which is to allow you to fine-tune extra LipSync delay, if needed. But you may never need to touch it.
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wallace123456
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Northwest VA area
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:56 am Post subject: |
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| VideoGrabber wrote: | Wallace commented:
> if there was delay through the vp50 (the vp50 has lip-syns adjustment), I didn't want to fool with that either. <
There's a misunderstanding here.
There IS a delay through the VP50, though it may not be apparent to you. And it varies, depending on the level of processing used. You can't just avoid it... it must be there, because the video processing that's done requires some # of field intervals to work it's magic on the video side. That means the audio comes out first, because it is NOT delayed. What the VP50 offers there isn't extra complexity. It's the simplicity of having whatever source/processing you run on the video side, have its audio synced up (delayed) automatically to match.
It's only when there is a delay from some other source that you'd need to take advantage of the VP50's other capability... which is to allow you to fine-tune extra LipSync delay, if needed. But you may never need to touch it. |
I agree as video has to take longer than audio to process. (And, I am constanting looking for the delay.)
But, I am wondering if some material would have different or more delay than others? If I understand what you are saying above, that would be true and it makes sense that there would be. As you mention, the more compex or processing time the video takes, the more likely there would be delay or difference between the audio and video. No?
Thanks.
wallace
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:17 am Post subject: |
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| wallace123456 wrote: | | VideoGrabber wrote: | Wallace commented:
> if there was delay through the vp50 (the vp50 has lip-syns adjustment), I didn't want to fool with that either. <
There's a misunderstanding here.
There IS a delay through the VP50, though it may not be apparent to you. And it varies, depending on the level of processing used. You can't just avoid it... it must be there, because the video processing that's done requires some # of field intervals to work it's magic on the video side. That means the audio comes out first, because it is NOT delayed. What the VP50 offers there isn't extra complexity. It's the simplicity of having whatever source/processing you run on the video side, have its audio synced up (delayed) automatically to match.
It's only when there is a delay from some other source that you'd need to take advantage of the VP50's other capability... which is to allow you to fine-tune extra LipSync delay, if needed. But you may never need to touch it. |
I agree as video has to take longer than audio to process. (And, I am constanting looking for the delay.)
But, I am wondering if some material would have different or more delay than others? If I understand what you are saying above, that would be true and it makes sense that there would be. As you mention, the more compex or processing time the video takes, the more likely there would be delay or difference between the audio and video. No?
Thanks.
wallace |
I don't think you understand what we are saying. I don't know the VP50's exact timings, so I'll use the Lumagen's timing as examples (I know theirs).
OK, your HDMI cable going from source to AVR. The AVR sends out the audio as fast as it can decode it and the video is sent to the VP50. Lets say the video is 1080i/60. Then the VP must buffer 3 fields to be able to "do its thing". Three fields is 50 milliseconds. Then it must do its processing (on the Lumagen, that is about 4 milliseconds). So, the video is sent out 54 milliseconds after it arrived at the VP. The video is therefore 54 milliseconds behind the audio.
Now, if you HDMI went from source to VP, then the VP would buffer 54 milliseconds of audio (i.e. "sit on it" until it was done with video processing), then send the audio and the video at the same time.
Now, lets say that your AVR took too long to decode the bitstream so with the VP's 54 ms delay, the audio was 40 milliseconds behind. You then use the lipsync control in the VP50 to tell it to only sit on the audio for 14 milliseconds instead of 54 ms. So now everything is perfectly in sync.
Does this make sense?
54ms is 1/20th of a second. Given that, most people don't notice the lipsync issue, so you are probably not seeing it.
Also, with a 1080p/24 input and a locked output, it does not have to buffer 3 frames, so you processing time is much less, so they are very very close to in sync with this type of input.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Gary M.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 3:02 am Post subject: |
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| wallace123456 wrote: | | Person99 wrote: | | wallace123456 wrote: |
I have 3 HDMI sources and the vp50 only has 2 HDMI inputs. And, I also thought it best to get the audio from the sources first (not sure why). Is there another way?
wallace |
Basically, you still have your HD DVD player. Most people have only 1 high resolution audio device, for me it is an LG combo player, for most it is only a BD player. You cable box and all those other sources do audio no better over HDMI than S/PDIF.
Thus, what I always suggest is:
1) Put and 1x2 HDMI splitter on you BD player. Send one out to the receiver, one to the VP.
2) All other sources, use the S/PDIF for output and HDMI for video only.
Since the VP50 passes audio (I think) and does audio delay, then you can do one better than the above (which is what I recommend with Lumagens):
1) Send all sources to the VP50.
2) Put a 1x2 spitter after the VP50 and send one output to PJ and one to AVR.
This way, you get to use the memory architecture and all the tweaks of the VP as designed. |
I understand what you are saying and it makes sense. I guess my thought and reasoning was I wanted as few items in-between the source devices and the final output (no switcher). And, if there was delay through the vp50 (the vp50 has lip-syns adjustment), I didn't want to fool with that either.
Aside from having the pj jump between 60 and 72hz on 24hz source material, doesn't the way I have it now work as well as the other methods?
Thanks.
| dropzone7 wrote: | | Don, I know I have asked you about this before but that was before I had a scaler. My question is this, for your all white warm-up screen are you using the built in one from the NEC or an all white pattern from the VP50? You did say "nec warm-up screen" in your post so that may be the answer but I just thought I would ask. |
Yes. I use the internal NEC warm-up screen for 2 periods; each period being 15 minutes.
wallace |
this is just my personal opinion and all but from being a NEC owner I found the white warmup screen to be uneeded at best and harmful at worst, I have seen it cause premature wear and this is on my infamous low contrast setups, the NEC warms up much better with about 45 mins of actual playing material, the cold to full blast 100ire from all 3 tubes at startup caused shifting and other issues, normal video works so much better, warm-up takes about 30 to 45 mins but I found it much better
just my opinion
-Gary
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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Does anybody have any idea what the gamma adjustments in the VP50 do? I don't understand the individual RGB trims as I'm only used to adjusting gamma from within a device like the Moome cards or Kim's transcoder.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| dropzone7 wrote: | | Does anybody have any idea what the gamma adjustments in the VP50 do? I don't understand the individual RGB trims as I'm only used to adjusting gamma from within a device like the Moome cards or Kim's transcoder. |
Gamma is an equation for encoding the linear intensity of gray scale. Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_correction
When you see a single value for gamma, you are modifying the exponent of that equation. Propery expressed it should be something like "2.2", "2.35", etc. However, some components and computers use a confusion "1.0" as the base. With too high gamma, the image is washed out. With too low a gamma, blacks are crushed.
What all the products in this space (like moomes and Kim's) that use Scott's (tse) approach is to modify the curve to attempt to overcome an inherent weakness in CRTs. If a CRT is set to produce a pretty dark black, then it will crush black because the stimulus at 1 IRE is not great enough produce light output. When properly calibrated so that blacks are not crushed, a CRT in a typical environment will generally have about 12,000-16,000:1 on/off. If calibrated for absolute black, numbers like 30,000:1 can be achieved, but with significant crushing of black. In my experience, different PJs crush black different amounts. IMO, the Quees are the worst and the Sony and Barcos are the best. But they all do it.
So, Scott's approach is to try to "reshape" the gamma curve (i.e. change the equation you read about above) so that it "comes out of black faster". So when the source "says" it wants 1 IRE, it is actually presented with a current more like 2 or 3 IRE. The impact of this is generally 100 IRE gets brighter. Too much reshaping and the top end will get crushed (white crush).
It is extremely hard to get just the right amount and I don't think you can ever get it "perfect".
The Lumagens have an 11 point parametric gamma adjustment that can also do this, but with more tweakability than introduced by the devices you referenced. For instance, the devices you referenced could not adequetly fix the gamma curve and black crush of my current digital, but the Lumagen can (of course, these devices would also make me leave the digital realm in my current chain which would introduce loss, so I would not want to do that).
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Gary M. wrote: |
this is just my personal opinion and all but from being a NEC owner I found the white warmup screen to be uneeded at best and harmful at worst, I have seen it cause premature wear and this is on my infamous low contrast setups, the NEC warms up much better with about 45 mins of actual playing material, the cold to full blast 100ire from all 3 tubes at startup caused shifting and other issues, normal video works so much better, warm-up takes about 30 to 45 mins but I found it much better
just my opinion
-Gary |
I got to agree with Gary on this one. For an analogy, imagine you go into your garage in the morning and turn your car on then hold the pedal down to "warm it up" at 6000 RPM. How good for the engine do you think this is?
Same with the tubes. You are basically projecting the more wear causing screen there is--full field white. You can literally shorten the life of the tubes from over 10,000 hours to about 2500 but doing this.
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Dave
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1031
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 657
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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Iīm not sure but i think that those warm up modes are to prevent cathode contamination. Friend here in Finland complained that his barco 808(over 7000 hours on tubes) had elevated black level on one tube, i recommended to use that "run in cycles" funtion that Barcoīs has. That helped to get blacks back. Also on picturetube testers/rejuvenators that "cleaning" function has cycles with/without filament voltage, so that there is small mechanical movement(heat expansion) between tube elements (G1/cathode) that allows "crap" to fall out between elements. Those are just my thougts, but on Sonys that warm up mode starts instant (tube is cold) so that high beam current can "clean up" cathode surface little bit. For convergence stability i think that running warm up screen at full blats has actually little to do, convergence/deflection circuits gets normal running temperature at about same time with or with out full white warm up screen.
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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Person99 commented:
> If a CRT is set to produce a pretty dark black, then it will crush black because the stimulus at 1 IRE is not great enough produce light output. When properly calibrated so that blacks are not crushed, a CRT in a typical environment will generally have about 12,000-16,000:1 on/off. If calibrated for absolute black, numbers like 30,000:1 can be achieved, but with significant crushing of black. <
Well said.
> So, Scott's approach is to try to "reshape" the gamma curve... The impact of this is generally 100 IRE gets brighter. Too much reshaping and the top end will get crushed (white crush). <
This is true of analog solutions, but not necessarily when corrected in the digital domain (VP50, or HTPC).
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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| VideoGrabber wrote: |
> So, Scott's approach is to try to "reshape" the gamma curve... The impact of this is generally 100 IRE gets brighter. Too much reshaping and the top end will get crushed (white crush). <
This is true of analog solutions, but not necessarily when corrected in the digital domain (VP50, or HTPC). |
Yes, this only happens with analog solutions. Though per our other conversations, I know how to reshape the curve (if you will) with a Lumagen and an HTPC, I thought it was impractical on the VP50?
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| 1031 wrote: | | Iīm not sure but i think that those warm up modes are to prevent cathode contamination. Friend here in Finland complained that his barco 808(over 7000 hours on tubes) had elevated black level on one tube, i recommended to use that "run in cycles" funtion that Barcoīs has. That helped to get blacks back. Also on picturetube testers/rejuvenators that "cleaning" function has cycles with/without filament voltage, so that there is small mechanical movement(heat expansion) between tube elements (G1/cathode) that allows "crap" to fall out between elements. Those are just my thougts, |
You are 100% correct. However, these PJs where never expected to be be fired up, run for 2 hours (a movie), then shut down. In that kind of scenario, running the warm up every time is way overkill and just wears the tubes. It needs to be run like once a year or so.
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Dave
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wallace123456
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Northwest VA area
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | wallace123456 wrote: | | VideoGrabber wrote: | Wallace commented:
> if there was delay through the vp50 (the vp50 has lip-syns adjustment), I didn't want to fool with that either. <
There's a misunderstanding here.
There IS a delay through the VP50, though it may not be apparent to you. And it varies, depending on the level of processing used. You can't just avoid it... it must be there, because the video processing that's done requires some # of field intervals to work it's magic on the video side. That means the audio comes out first, because it is NOT delayed. What the VP50 offers there isn't extra complexity. It's the simplicity of having whatever source/processing you run on the video side, have its audio synced up (delayed) automatically to match.
It's only when there is a delay from some other source that you'd need to take advantage of the VP50's other capability... which is to allow you to fine-tune extra LipSync delay, if needed. But you may never need to touch it. |
I agree as video has to take longer than audio to process. (And, I am constantly looking for the delay.)
But, I am wondering if some material would have different or more delay than others? If I understand what you are saying above, that would be true and it makes sense that there would be. As you mention, the more complex or processing time the video takes, the more likely there would be delay or difference between the audio and video. No?
Thanks.
wallace |
I don't think you understand what we are saying. I don't know the VP50's exact timings, so I'll use the Lumagen's timing as examples (I know theirs).
OK, your HDMI cable going from source to AVR. The AVR sends out the audio as fast as it can decode it and the video is sent to the VP50. Lets say the video is 1080i/60. Then the VP must buffer 3 fields to be able to "do its thing". Three fields is 50 milliseconds. Then it must do its processing (on the Lumagen, that is about 4 milliseconds). So, the video is sent out 54 milliseconds after it arrived at the VP. The video is therefore 54 milliseconds behind the audio.
Now, if you HDMI went from source to VP, then the VP would buffer 54 milliseconds of audio (i.e. "sit on it" until it was done with video processing), then send the audio and the video at the same time.
Now, lets say that your AVR took too long to decode the bitstream so with the VP's 54 ms delay, the audio was 40 milliseconds behind. You then use the lipsync control in the VP50 to tell it to only sit on the audio for 14 milliseconds instead of 54 ms. So now everything is perfectly in sync.
Does this make sense?
54ms is 1/20th of a second. Given that, most people don't notice the lipsync issue, so you are probably not seeing it.
Also, with a 1080p/24 input and a locked output, it does not have to buffer 3 frames, so you processing time is much less, so they are very very close to in sync with this type of input. |
Yes, makes perfect sense. I have not really noticed a difference between video and audio, but I keep looking for it. But for the heck of it, I am going to try the recommendations and see if I do notice. Gotta at least try it. 
Does it stand to reason that a more complex video scene would more likely show delay (video and audio)?
wallace
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wallace123456
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Northwest VA area
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:07 am Post subject: |
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| Gary M. wrote: | | dropzone7 wrote: | | Don, I know I have asked you about this before but that was before I had a scaler. My question is this, for your all white warm-up screen are you using the built in one from the NEC or an all white pattern from the VP50? You did say "nec warm-up screen" in your post so that may be the answer but I just thought I would ask. |
Yes. I use the internal NEC warm-up screen for 2 periods; each period being 15 minutes.
wallace |
this is just my personal opinion and all but from being a NEC owner I found the white warmup screen to be uneeded at best and harmful at worst, I have seen it cause premature wear and this is on my infamous low contrast setups, the NEC warms up much better with about 45 mins of actual playing material, the cold to full blast 100ire from all 3 tubes at startup caused shifting and other issues, normal video works so much better, warm-up takes about 30 to 45 mins but I found it much better
just my opinion
-Gary[/quote]
Gary,
The internal nec warm-up screen is a very soft white compared to some other all white patterns/scenes (IMO). When I had my Sony 1272, that warm-up screen was SCREAMING white! It doesn't seem like the warm-up screen is full blast.
But, now that you bring this up  , I think I will try to compare a BD DVE scene to the internal one. Without any type meter, I can only try "my eyes".
Good info and advice!
wallace
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Gary M.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:33 am Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: |
You are 100% correct. However, these PJs where never expected to be be fired up, run for 2 hours (a movie), then shut down. In that kind of scenario, running the warm up every time is way overkill and just wears the tubes. It needs to be run like once a year or so. |
exactly, that is why I fire mine up and watch about 2 or 3 movies a day
seriously though those warm-up screens wear tubes, about 30 to 45 mins of actual video works for me, I am in a hushbox so it may take a bit longer for me to warm-up
-Gary
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