| Author |
Message |
Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Z-Photo wrote: | 10x275 = 2750 (life 2-3k hours each)
3x1200 = 3600 (life 5-8k hours) (2x if you keep the red)
A CRT projector tubes at over 10k hours has lost most (if not all) of the razor sharpness of the 1-3k hour tubes.
The bulbs just lose brightness not sharpness.
So I would say it a good bit more favorable for the digital at this point than retubing a CRT. But that is my opinion. |
I agree with that opinion. Plus, if you have a PJ with a lamp assembly where the bulb can be replaced, then you are only spending $180-200 per bulb (typically). So your first line is down to $2000 or less.
_________________
Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2920
Location: Ithaca, NY
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| RVonse wrote: |
One thing I might point out though, is that even though technology generally improves over time, quality always goes the other way. Thats because instead of using technology to improve a product it is mostly used for making it cheaper. |
Presumably you're writing this on a computer that is slower and less reliable than a UNIVAC, then - and you drive a car that is less safe and less reliable than a Model T.
And if you want to really get a good washing machine, why not go back even further, before all that nasty technology had ruined the quality - we've got one from the '40s around here. It's the kind that has high pressure rollers instead of a dryer - my dad knows a kid who had the flesh shredded from his arm when it got caught in one of those. But the quality! None of those new-fangled things can touch it, right? 
_________________
Last edited by perisoft on Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| perisoft wrote: | | RVonse wrote: |
One thing I might point out though, is that even though technology generally improves over time, quality always goes the other way. Thats because instead of using technology to improve a product it is mostly used for making it cheaper. |
Presumably you're writing this on a computer that is slower and less reliable than a UNIVAC, then - and you drive a car that is less safe and less reliable than a Model T. |
I thought about the Model T example, but thought he would counter with although it is unreliable, it is relatively simple to keep going compared to today's microprocessor controlled monstrosities. 
_________________
Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Z-Photo
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 2749
Location: Huntsville - Alabama
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| emdawgz1 wrote: | I have yet to scratch my itch...
So my new diggs will have a stack... and hopefully a blend...
Then maybe i'll think about a switch.
Right now i'd rather fight!!! |
you have been hanging out with cliffy way too much. 
_________________
Engineer by Day
Photographer by Night
My Portfolio
The Only GOOD AMPRO - is a Dead AMPRO.
wait - are they not all DEAD already?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Electrogeek
Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 104
Location: Hamilton New Zealand
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
to be fair, as far as old tech goes, i don't believe stuff gets worse with time however, from my time repairing hardware, and evaluation design these two things have been shown true
Simple designs have less things to break, thereby lasting longer (this is why if you pull your 486 out of the closet and clean up the mess made by the cmos battery it will still run fine, however, your pII probably wont)
modern hardware is built with a expected life (for example, a new TV is expected to last 4 years) in the 80's and before, this simply was not the case (this is why my old as the hills washing machine will probably still be going when the one you just brought dies)
that said, there are still some who are designing without designing design lives into things, and in time as we learn more about the cost to our world of the waist we produce(oh, it broke, well they are so cheep, just get a new one), people will start to make repairable hardware again, and hardware not meant to break
PS, if you are a design and read this, elegant designs are wonderful don't over complicate things, and make sure what you make first and foremost can do its job correctly for a long time - Cheers
_________________
I have found a use for compact fluorescents hehe
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Z-Photo
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 2749
Location: Huntsville - Alabama
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well,
There are a few other factors involved.
Mass production also means that the main power board for an "in-production" LCD flat panel cost $140(retail). Most modern manufactures simply replace rather than repair because it is cheaper than taking the board to a service shop (most likely the manufacturing center) to run on the diagonistic equipment.
So a board that cost (the company) less than $50 - is it worth repairing - nope. The problem happens when the product is no longer in actual manufacturing and the board supply starts to dwindle - then the economics start to reverse and it becomes cheaper to reapir.
This equipment is so complicated that even at a 99.99% (step level) quality - you will have a decent chance of breakage (think 70-80%) quality by the time you have the entire assembly together.
I would expect the crap to get much worse - until a new fundamental shift in technology occurs - getting close.
_________________
Engineer by Day
Photographer by Night
My Portfolio
The Only GOOD AMPRO - is a Dead AMPRO.
wait - are they not all DEAD already?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
emdawgz1
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 7949
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Z-Photo wrote: |
I would expect the crap to get much worse - until a new fundamental shift in technology occurs - getting close. |
Ummmmm......whats that???? 
_________________
Follow my blog
www.thesinglebrother.com
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| RVonse wrote: |
For example, I would much rather buy a NOS 30 year old wash machine like my parents still use than the crap found today. |
Bob,
There are still some good washing machines out there. I think the new Mieles may have been cost cutted for the US market, but the last generation Mieles would probably get you 30 years of use.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Z-Photo
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 2749
Location: Huntsville - Alabama
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| emdawgz1 wrote: | | Z-Photo wrote: |
I would expect the crap to get much worse - until a new fundamental shift in technology occurs - getting close. |
Ummmmm......whats that???? |
I could tell you - but then I would have to kill you - would be a waste of some good hot wings.............
Bascially for electronics - heat is a killer. They are getting close to new manufacturing/materials that dramatically reduce the heat generated - one major expectation of these material is an increase in reliability....
so remember kids - heat is only good if you are at the beach with coeds (excess heat is beneficial in the removal of clothing)
_________________
Engineer by Day
Photographer by Night
My Portfolio
The Only GOOD AMPRO - is a Dead AMPRO.
wait - are they not all DEAD already?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
emdawgz1
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 7949
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Z-Photo wrote: |
so remember kids - heat is only good if you are at the beach with coeds (excess heat is beneficial in the removal of clothing) |
Pete is a WISE MAN. 
_________________
Follow my blog
www.thesinglebrother.com
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PJMoore
Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 99
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 6:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I got into CRT home theater only because I could finally afford it. Sure, we all want "perfection", but how many of us can afford it? For most of us the choice between CRT and digital is not one of quality, but one of affordability. The argument about which is "best" is very simple - it's the one I can afford to buy and maintain. I am glad I have enough life left in my CRT to think that by the time it dies, there will be affordable digitals to take its place. I can't get that worked up about it actually. The home theater is only as good as what is available to watch, and most of that is just not that great unless you have a fondness for exploding barrels of gasoline, ignorant dialog, and pointless car chases. The gratuitous naked women are nice, though, so I'll keep mine running. 
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 6:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| PJMoore wrote: | | The home theater is only as good as what is available to watch, and most of that is just not that great unless you have a fondness for exploding barrels of gasoline, ignorant dialog, and pointless car chases. The gratuitous naked women are nice, though, so I'll keep mine running. |
Being a child of the '70's and '80's I just don't know any better.
_________________
Tech support for nothing
CRT.
HD done right!
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 7:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| PJMoore wrote: | | I can't get that worked up about it actually. The home theater is only as good as what is available to watch, and most of that is just not that great unless you have a fondness for exploding barrels of gasoline, ignorant dialog, and pointless car chases. The gratuitous naked women are nice, though, so I'll keep mine running. |
Man, you hit the nail on the head here. I've recently been joking with friends that if I put together a list of "What I've learned by my trip through home theater enthusiasm", the first item would be: there are a substantially less quality movies than I thought there were. Heck, my wife is to the point were she doesn't even deem it "worthwhile" to watch an average movie in the theater--she'd just rather watch in the family room on the main display.
_________________
Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
emdawgz1
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 7949
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 7:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| PJMoore wrote: | | I can't get that worked up about it actually. The home theater is only as good as what is available to watch, and most of that is just not that great unless you have a fondness for exploding barrels of gasoline, ignorant dialog, and pointless car chases. The gratuitous naked women are nice, though, so I'll keep mine running. |
Dude!!! Thats so not true.
I love the classics on the Big Screen!
Ben Hur, Lawrence of Arabia. Bridge on the River Qwai. The Dirty Dozen, The Magnificent 7, The Maltese Falcon, All about Eve, Sunset Blvd.
We HT guys are Highbrow!
although a good nekkid scene never hurt anybody
_________________
Follow my blog
www.thesinglebrother.com
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| PJMoore wrote: | | I got into CRT home theater only because I could finally afford it. Sure, we all want "perfection", but how many of us can afford it? For most of us the choice between CRT and digital is not one of quality, but one of affordability. |
Quality is certainly an aspect that cannot be dismissed. Back when the first horrid LCD home theater projectors cost $10000, dropping $10000 on a CRT made alot of sense. The performance differences were staggering.
Then came some improvements in the digitals. We entered a world in which a "comparable digital" (doing some things better, some things worse) cost 2-3 times the going rate of a CRT. At this point it was not necessarily "what is the best performance" but "what is the best performance I could afford". These are the days when the projectors comparably priced to the better ES machines where the crap like the InFocus 4805.
We have now reached the point of parity. Comparable CRTs and digitals effectively cost about the same. Now it is completely down to a what are you looking for. Few these days given the choice between an RS2 and a G90 for about the same money pick the G90 (hence falling prices and the fact our friends at FH Video have a bunch of G90s they will never get rid of to say nothing about the D50s!).
Given the above, I agree with "Spanky" in another thread that few will be entering the CRT fold within the next year and probably none after 2009. We are basically 1 evolutionary step away from the digital being equal to or better than a CRT on every single picture quality aspect that we care about in home theater.
_________________
Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Nashou66 wrote: | Digital Dave ........your depressing....  
Athanasios |
Why is it depressing? You actually DON'T want to be able to get a picture better than a G90 for a few thousand dollars? Really? REALLY? I think it is pretty great frankly.
_________________
Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Person99 wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: | Digital Dave ........your depressing....
Athanasios |
Why is it depressing? You actually DON'T want to be able to get a picture better than a G90 for a few thousand dollars? Really? REALLY? I think it is pretty great frankly. |
No, thats not the only thing for me, CRT opened me up to all this electronic Hobby stuff. Not just the home theater aspect and image quality. I had a digital and still do. But you cant get in there and mess around with stuff like you can with these older PJ's. The upgrading and changing things out, modifying lens', etc.... all the DIY things I love about CRT. I am sure in the next two years there will be a better tech like Laser PJ that will be just as good as the Top CRT's now, with black levels and every other aspect of it. But its the DIY factor that drew me in and keeps me here. I have had a lot of enjoyment learning about board level electronics here, and thank the many many very smart people of this forum who led me along as I was learning. It will be sad when I do switch and no longer will be doing the board level diagnostics and part changing, as I know the new tech stuff will be way to difficult and expensive to trouble shoot and repair and or tweek. That is the reason for my comment on depression.
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 9:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Nashou66 wrote: | | Person99 wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: | Digital Dave ........your depressing....
Athanasios |
Why is it depressing? You actually DON'T want to be able to get a picture better than a G90 for a few thousand dollars? Really? REALLY? I think it is pretty great frankly. |
No, thats not the only thing for me, CRT opened me up to all this electronic Hobby stuff. Not just the home theater aspect and image quality. I had a digital and still do. But you cant get in there and mess around with stuff like you can with these older PJ's. The upgrading and changing things out, modifying lens', etc.... all the DIY things I love about CRT. I am sure in the next two years there will be a better tech like Laser PJ that will be just as good as the Top CRT's now, with black levels and every other aspect of it. But its the DIY factor that drew me in and keeps me here. I have had a lot of enjoyment learning about board level electronics here, and thank the many many very smart people of this forum who led me along as I was learning. It will be sad when I do switch and no longer will be doing the board level diagnostics and part changing, as I know the new tech stuff will be way to difficult and expensive to trouble shoot and repair and or tweek. That is the reason for my comment on depression.
Athanasios |
I understand that and all, and it is valid. But understand, that is not most of us. If I have to choose between tweaking a PJ and spending time with my daugther--daughter wins. Tweaking a PJ or watching a movie--movie wins. Tweaking a PJ or riding my mountain bike--bike wins...you get the idea. If I have to choose between an incredible picture in a "non-dinkable with" projector vs. a great picture in a "dinkable with" projector, I'll take the former every time!
All I care about is a great movie watching experience, the less it takes to get that and the better it is, the happier I am. I think I represent about 99% of home theater folks here.
_________________
Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
