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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm... interesting, David. The Marquee is indeed spec'ed for max draw of 650w. My G70 is speced at 750w max. So, you're saying it draws under half the rated power with typical program material? Weird. I wonder why they would over-spec them so badly.
I need to borrow one of those kill-a-watt devices from somebody and measure my projector, I guess.
SC
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| David_Web wrote: | | And it's all going to heat in the end, not just most of it. |
Correct -- so during the winter, CRT projectors (like virtually all other power-consuming devices) don't "waste" energy at all. They just turn it into heat, directly or indirectly. Hell, even the photons that hit your screen heat it infinitesimally, as do the vibrating air molecules from the noisy fans!! It's basic thermodynamics -- EVERYthing degrades to heat.
So during the heating seasons, you can run a projector "for free." It just lowers your heating bill. It may even SAVE energy/$$ if you burn gas/oil/wood/etc for heat, since there's no heat lost up the chimney. Now during the summer when the projector fights with your AC, that's a different story entirely...
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johnsmith808
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 100
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: |
2) Are obsessed with sacrificing other PQ parameters to get the best black level you possibly can for $1500
the CRT is losing its compelling argument. Just my worthless 2 cents.  |
I seem to be swimming against the tide. I am actually getting rid of my Sharp XV-Z12000 MKII in favor of a Sony G70.
I think it comes down to what you consider the most important picture parameters and how much you can afford to pay to get them. Also, what your favorite movies or viewing material are will have a great impact on the picture qualities you want.
For me, I would qualify for point number 2)obsessed with black level. Of course black level on it's own means nothing, but it's the crt's on/off contrast ratio that makes it valid.
I always considered black level like low frequencies of audio. You don't just hear it, you feel it as well. When you watch a low ire scene with a crt you feel that scene. Your room is already dark, and the crt just adds to the mood.
Digitals with their high ansi performance yet relatively weak black level (I'm sorry, but anything but a true black is not black) are likened to higher frequency sounds. Crisp and clear, yet lacking depth. The image pops, but leaves no lasting impression.
Now a pj that can combine these two? It doesn't exist yet (digital with true fade to black). When it does, then there will definitely be no reason to own a crt other than for price.
Of course, my comparisons are between a digital and a crt pj in my price range. As was stated earlier, if you go up to the RS2 price range, black level improves significantly, but at a premium. That is a range I am not concerned with at this time.
Crt pj's were referred to as a stopgap. Well, believe it or not, so is every digital on the market today.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| johnsmith808 wrote: | | Person99 wrote: |
2) Are obsessed with sacrificing other PQ parameters to get the best black level you possibly can for $1500
the CRT is losing its compelling argument. Just my worthless 2 cents. |
I seem to be swimming against the tide. I am actually getting rid of my Sharp XV-Z12000 MKII in favor of a Sony G70. |
And I'm not saying that is "wrong". It is preference. My point was, CRTs were a rediculous bargain given their price compared to other options a few years ago. They are not that crazy of a bargain now. Now, it is not really a no brainer, it really comes down to trade offs.
As an aside I'm not as big of a fan of the 12K MkII as others. If you are going to have a digital, you might as well reap the benefits and have a CIH set up. The 12K MkII is not bright enough for that. I also like the optics on some other PJs in this class better.
I've said it before, there is much more various in digitals then there are in CRTs. There are for all intents and purposed 5 makers of 8 and 9 inch CRT projectors (4 if you only want to consider sets that will function properly), and they all look pretty much the same when properly set up. Yes they have minor variances such as marquees will crush black, P16 tubed 8" machines will be sharper than 180 tubed ones, etc. But the "look" of them and such is about the same. This is not true in digitals. There is tremedous variance between them. It took me quite some time to find an acceptable one in my price range--I can tell you that.
| johnsmith808 wrote: | | For me, I would qualify for point number 2)obsessed with black level. Of course black level on it's own means nothing, but it's the crt's on/off contrast ratio that makes it valid. |
Yes, the higher the on/off, the better low APL scenes look. The higher the ANSI, the better high APL scenes look. It is the trade-off you have to decide on.
| johnsmith808 wrote: | | I always considered black level like low frequencies of audio. You don't just hear it, you feel it as well. When you watch a low ire scene with a crt you feel that scene. Your room is already dark, and the crt just adds to the mood. |
I think your analogy is a little bit labored. But yes, low APL scenes with a high on/off PJ like a CRT or an RS2 are much more involving. But, let us not forget, we grew up watching movies in theaters with much worst on/off than the current or previous generation of digitals.
| johnsmith808 wrote: | | Digitals with their high ansi performance yet relatively weak black level |
That is a very gross generalization. For instance, the RS2 has very good black level and weak (compared to other digital options) ANSI CR.
| johnsmith808 wrote: | | (I'm sorry, but anything but a true black is not black) are likened to higher frequency sounds. Crisp and clear, yet lacking depth. The image pops, but leaves no lasting impression. |
Well, if you think anything but true black is not acceptable, that you simply cannot watch any projection technology as none will produce true black. Even with gamma curve reshaping, a CRT cannot produce true black without crushing black. So, you are never getting true black with a properly calibrated projector--period. You are just getting a (in many cases) much darker gray.
By the same token, look at the other end. Watch Ice Age for instance. On a digital, the snow scenes are nice and bright just like they are supposed to be. On a CRT, they are not convincing at all because those scenes draw too much current, so the PJ must "tone it down".
It is all about trade offs, and that is the point. People get obsessed with black level, sure many of the former CRT guys have moved to the JVCs because of a fixation on black level, but it is surprising how many have moved to high ANSI CR PJs feeling they had a better overall look (Art would be an example on the high end, I'd be an example on the low end).
| johnsmith808 wrote: | | Now a pj that can combine these two? It doesn't exist yet (digital with true fade to black). When it does, then there will definitely be no reason to own a crt other than for price. |
Actually if does and you acknowledge it at the end of your post. An RS2 has very comparable black levels to a CRT. So it does exist.
| johnsmith808 wrote: | | Crt pj's were referred to as a stopgap. Well, believe it or not, so is every digital on the market today. |
No argument there at all. I don't think anyone disagrees with this. I think the point was that with the digital evolution price and performance curve beginning to level out (i.e. a $5000 projector from today [RS2] blows away a $25000 projector from a few years ago [qualia]) which makes the current crop of digitals good candidates for the current "stopgap".
In the end, I'm not try to "convert" anyone. I'm simply sharing my experiences. People who have been around for awhile know me as a fairly staunch CRT guy. Due to external circumstances (nothing to do with the performance of my last CRT), I looked at digitals. I wanted to see what kind of display chain could be put together for $2500 these days in the digital world. If I seem a bit too much like a "digital sales guy" it is only because the display chain I ended up with exceeded my expectations. I ended up with a set up that the vast majority of people (including everyone in my family--which are the only ones the matter) who have seen all my set ups prefer.
I'm only sharing because I think many CRT guys formed their opinion of digitals awhile ago and have not kept up, or have judged all of them based upon seeing a few (as I mentioned, there is tremendous various between them). Would a 9.5' wide CIH set up with a digital be the choice of everyone right now--no. But, I think you would be very hard pressed to find a person who went from a CRT to a well set up CIH digital display chain who regrets the choice.
I thought the best I could get out of a lower cost digital set up was "adequate". I have much more than adequate. If anything, it is now a PITA because friends that would come over for movies occasionally are now bugging me constantly to come over and watch movies!
YMMV
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="johnsmith808"] | Person99 wrote: |
Crt pj's were referred to as a stopgap. Well, believe it or not, so is every digital on the market today. |
THIS my friends, deserves a
RIMSHOT! 
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johnsmith808
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 100
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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Crt's cannot produce true black without crushing black, even with gamma adjustments? I thought I heard otherwise from many happy Box1020, HTPC, etc. owners? Either that, or the crushing is also a trade off for true black. With digitals, including the RS2, you can't achieve absolute black even with some crushing of blacks though.
Remember, I can't really speak accurately of the performance of an RS2 because it is out of my price range, so it's not part of my opinion here. What I've written thus far is true for my personal situation, and not necessarily for others.
If I could get an RS2 for the price I'm getting a G70 for would I take it? Of course I would. I may be cheap, but I'm not insane.
Sometimes I think long time crt'ers have enjoyed the benefits of owning a crt, and are ready for a change. They are ready for the ease of set-up, brighter and sharper images, and higher ansi contrast. With all of the work they've invested into their crt's, I think they deserve an easier life now.
However, in my case, I have owned 4 digital projectors and really had a great time with the strengths of them, I am also ready for a change. I am ready to give up what digitals can bring (in my price range once again) and take on the load (literally) and virtues of a crt.
As a side note, I have never owned a digital projector for much longer than 1 year. The longest HD display that I've owned was a crt rptv. It lasted me a whopping 4 years before I went to projectors. The sad thing is I didn't give it up because the PQ was lacking, but rather because it was too small once I extended my living room.
I like to think that I will be bringing that picture back, but in the form of a pj.
One last note is that in the digital pj world, the temptation to upgrade is constantly there (as was evident in my 4 pj's in 4 years run). Each year brings fairly significant improvements.
With crt's, there are no improvements each year, other than some mods or accessories. I really wonder how long former crt'ers who have upgraded to digitals keep their digitals before upgrading. My guess would be not very long.
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jarseneau
Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 323
Location: WI
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | Hmm... interesting, David. The Marquee is indeed spec'ed for max draw of 650w. My G70 is speced at 750w max. So, you're saying it draws under half the rated power with typical program material? Weird. I wonder why they would over-spec them so badly.
I need to borrow one of those kill-a-watt devices from somebody and measure my projector, I guess.
SC |
Just FYI...
I just bought the Kill-a-watt P3 last week and found my NEC XG 1352 draws about 450 watts typically (12 watts in Standby  ). The image was from a DirecTV feed and not fade to black or anything. I'll have to check watt a full white screen at full brightness/contrast would do. This might also be affected by resolution (more scan lines?).
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Jerry
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HighDefMike
Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 62
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:50 am Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | | .....in an industry that has been pushing new product/features on the consumer every year now, what will the industry do when they release a 1080p, 10-20,000 hour lifespan digital set that's within reach of the masses. Will manufacturers continue to undercut themselves to get market share which is what's happening now, or will prices stay high because the industry won't have a lot to offer for say 5-10 years that will be a dramatic improvement over long life, 1080p and a high contrast ratio? |
The industry, or those controlling companies that stand to lose the most if this occurs, ain't gonna
let it happen  ....unless they can find new ways/products to perpetuate their current source of income.
A friend of mine & I were just talking a few days ago about how sad it is that considering purchasing extended warranties and service plans for most consumer electronics nowadays....especially the higher-quality/more expensive products  ...is the "norm". Planned obsolescence? Products pushing the envelope? Or is it simple buyer paranoia, because we have experienced one bad apple, one or more times  , for some product/category, sooner than we thought we should have?
Of course, we know the motivation of the companies offering those warranties/service agreements...clear profit.
But I will gladly go "digital"...as soon as I can get a "digital" that provides equal or better overall pq than I can get with my refurbished/modded Marquee (thanks Curt! )....for the same or lower outlay of cash...and that lasts 8-10 years (like my previous crt projector). Is that asking for too much? 
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:02 am Post subject: |
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Well, we dispose of projectors (CRT) when they are 17-20 years old, so in theory, that 1995 Marquee will be pretty unreliable in about 2012.
Funny, I'm still busy as heck, sending out another 20+ boxes tomorrow, but the profit is down (going up about 10% thanks to the strengthening USD recently), but I'm still having way too much fun. I'm still selling a goodish number of sets to the commercial/industrial industry. Sold two Barco 708 to a planetarium today..
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johnsmith808
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 100
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:43 am Post subject: |
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It's good to hear things are picking up for you Curt. As far as I'm concerned, once you're gone (out of crt business), crt will be gone as well.
Without this forum, I wouldn't even consider getting a crt.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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Yep, I'm still here, but as with everyone else, I now have to supplement the CRT income with other work. That sucks, I wanted to ride this cow forever...
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | | Yep, I'm still here, but as with everyone else, I now have to supplement the CRT income with other work. That sucks, I wanted to ride this cow forever... |
I really hope Sparky doesn't catch a glimpse of what you just wrote and take it outta context. 
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CRT.
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Elaine Benes
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 1416
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | | Yep, I'm still here, but as with everyone else, I now have to supplement the CRT income with other work. That sucks, I wanted to ride this cow forever...:) |
My money is on 2 years max that crt's are still providing ANY significant portion of your income, and by the end of the second year, it will primarily be repairs. I'd bet sales of full sets have already tanked to the point where they don't support themselves any more(ie. its not worth the cost to ship them to you for resale any more....).
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