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overclkr
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 4227
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:36 am Post subject: |
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| caligraphic wrote: | no need for any apology. my posts are purely my humble opinion and from the burning that has occurred one would have assumed that all the experts out there actually have handled and seen the crt, that is certianly what i would have expected from these comments. but that is me.
I am a member of a similar forum in another industry. i would suggest that we may police our own forum a little better. and when new people enter our industry and assist in resolutions of problems and raise the bar in terms of service and price competitiveness we applaud them and assume positively things in the absence of evidence to the contrary.
your forum seems a little different. not wrong, just not what we expected and after 9 months i have grown weary of it all.
Someone buys a crt, burns it and accuses us of hiding from him when we won't respond daily and hourly to his incessant phone calls and emails. well we have a day job.
i am sure VDC will be pleased to see you all beating a path to their door.
good luck.
regards |
So how do you plan to respond now?
I think an apology is in order.........
Cliff
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HaydnG90
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1356
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| overclkr wrote: | | caligraphic wrote: | no need for any apology. my posts are purely my humble opinion and from the burning that has occurred one would have assumed that all the experts out there actually have handled and seen the crt, that is certianly what i would have expected from these comments. but that is me.
I am a member of a similar forum in another industry. i would suggest that we may police our own forum a little better. and when new people enter our industry and assist in resolutions of problems and raise the bar in terms of service and price competitiveness we applaud them and assume positively things in the absence of evidence to the contrary.
your forum seems a little different. not wrong, just not what we expected and after 9 months i have grown weary of it all.
Someone buys a crt, burns it and accuses us of hiding from him when we won't respond daily and hourly to his incessant phone calls and emails. well we have a day job.
i am sure VDC will be pleased to see you all beating a path to their door.
good luck.
regards |
So how do you plan to respond now?
I think an apology is in order.........
Cliff |
At the very least, although I'm not holding my breath.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 2:15 am Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: | | draganm wrote: |
Actually the most disturbing piece of information in this thread is the fact that Panasonic has quit making tubes and they are now being built in China. I know from experience that there is a a huge difference in quality between building things in China versus Japan.
It seems like one more nail in the coffin of CRT if we have to gamble on Chinese tubes and whether or not they are high enough quality for home theater use. |
We still have Thomas Electronics too.
http://www.thomaselectronics.com/simulation/projection_crt_overview.php
check out there capabilities link too, they do a lot of magnetic work as well and still will make custom tubes and rework other tubes glass even ! And also rebuild CRT's Guns and Phosphor.
Athanasios |
Do you know of anyone who has purchased Thomas tubes? I think the rebuilds were more expensive than VDC anyway. If I remember correctly their quality was always suspect. |
Actually I have 6 used thomas tubes from a source who is dumping them for free, some are not that worn, others are, its a potluck chance, but for only 10 bucks shipping via UPS(you need to send the shipping lables to him)These are Sony pinout HYbrid tubes, high output special phosphor and they have a very nice smooth phosphor, they look smoother than the new VDC LUG i have. And I in transit are 6 more of these but bran new($100 each), I talked him down from 150 
CRT Ben has them in his marquee, I plan on moding my Marquee once i wear out the 8 inch tubes. But the guy who I got them from said these where used in a one of a kind Simulation High rez PJ for the Navy on one of the ships. They now moved to the Marquee Ultras.
Athanasios
_________________
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Tom.W
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 6635
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 2:36 am Post subject: |
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It never looked like a spot burn in the first place. Then you have all the time and shipping costs trying to prove it........ 
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Chuchuf
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 548
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| JustGreg wrote: | | I've been following this for learning purposes and have a question about the tube....Is that brand/type rebuildable? |
Sure, but why would Kris want to?? He bought it as a new tube.
Terry
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JustGreg
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3098
Location: Kenosha, WI
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Chuchuf wrote: | | JustGreg wrote: | | I've been following this for learning purposes and have a question about the tube....Is that brand/type rebuildable? |
Sure, but why would Kris want to?? He bought it as a new tube.
Terry |
No no no Terry...that's not why I was asking. I was just asking out of curiosity. I'll go back to lurking.
Sheesh. Tough crowd.
_________________
Greg
"Is it ignorance or apathy? Hey, I don't know and I don't care!" --Jimmy Buffett
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Chuchuf
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 548
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| Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| JustGreg wrote: | | Chuchuf wrote: | | JustGreg wrote: | | I've been following this for learning purposes and have a question about the tube....Is that brand/type rebuildable? |
Sure, but why would Kris want to?? He bought it as a new tube.
Terry |
No no no Terry...that's not why I was asking. I was just asking out of curiosity. I'll go back to lurking.
Sheesh. Tough crowd. |
Greg,
All of the P19 tubes that were built by MEC are rebuildable through VDC.
Terry
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Tom.W wrote: | | It never looked like a spot burn in the first place. Then you have all the time and shipping costs trying to prove it........ |
well no one here or at AVS thought it looked like spot burn. However Mr. Caligraph was convinced even though he admitted to not being and expert on the subject. I think the real underlying problem here, I mean the root cause of this whole situation, is poor QC on the production line. I'm pretty sure this tube would have never left the original production line at Pannasonic Japan but it was obviously good enough for Mikado China. 
I can say that all the new tubes (not re-built) I've gotten from VDC florida were always excellent. Not sure of they were Japanese build or VDC since VDC is making new tubes now. It's just a shame their 9" tubes are so ridiculously expensive and their policy towards us with bellows and c-element sales has been so hostile.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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Put yourself into VDCs shoes. I understand it completely.
All of us cheap bastards (myself included) are scoring tubes off eBay and other places (such as Tubular), the minimal sales of tubes to consumers by VDC plummets, yet I buy HV leads in quantity... from VDC. WHy? Because that's the only place I can get them. Ditto for bellows and C elements.
I'd cut me off as well..
Now we're all back to VDC.
Frankly (and I've posted before), I don't see why VDC didn't set up a few select dealers way back when, so that they wouldn't have to deal with single tube orders all over the world. That would eliminate all of the 'do you have a tube for a Zenith PRO 900' type calls to Gina, the select dealers could make a small profit on the tubes, and VDC could carry on what they are best at, making tubes and selling them at the wholesale level only.
And no, the above statement really isn't self serving, as tech support is pretty damn high to someone changing a tube out for the first time. I'd say it's as time consuming as HDFury tech support is. NEver mind tube failures, warranty replacements, tubes smashed in transit, etc, etc.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: |
Actually I have 6 used thomas tubes from a source who is dumping them for free, some are not that worn, others are, its a potluck chance, but for only 10 bucks shipping via UPS(you need to send the shipping lables to him)These are Sony pinout HYbrid tubes, high output special phosphor and they have a very nice smooth phosphor, they look smoother than the new VDC LUG i have. And I in transit are 6 more of these but bran new($100 each), I talked him down from 150
CRT Ben has them in his marquee, I plan on moding my Marquee once i wear out the 8 inch tubes. But the guy who I got them from said these where used in a one of a kind Simulation High rez PJ for the Navy on one of the ships. They now moved to the Marquee Ultras.
Athanasios |
Ummmm, ok! The only real relevant info is your observation on the phosphor. That is good to know as I believe that was an issue with them. Hopefully their QC is now excellent. As for the price you paid, that is great, but not really relevant unless he has a huge supply of these tubes for $100. If I remember correctly, then the prices from Thomas were higher than VDC. Do you or anyone else have a new price list?
drag,
You can't say that Mikado's QC is worse than Panasonic without seeing the operation and basing it off one tube.
Curt,
I totally agree. Having retail distributors would have eliminated the issues that VDC has with tech support. Of course, I have never heard that VDC has exclusive rights to the Panasonic tubes. If that is the case, then why didn't someone else enter into the market and sell tubes?
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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From what I understand, VDC already had a Panasonic/MEC tube rebuilding setup, so they bought all the inventory from Panasonic, but not the production line. This Chinese (?) company bought the production line, and are now having phosphor issues.
The first few tubes I bought from Tubular had 'orignal' Panasonic stickers on them, so I'm guessing that Tubular had those in stock before the production switch. I had no phosphor issues with those. One had bad focusing, Tubular replaced it right away.
A second one had focus issues after 200 hours, Tubular replaced that one as well, and the new one came in with that 'new' brand on it.
I didn't care, but I'm curious how it will stand up.
Seems as with the issues that VDC has had in the past, a smooth phosphor coating is a bitch to get right on the inside of the tube. Ditto for a 'clean' assembly of gun to neck, and lack of impurities in the tube vacuum itself.
Again, it would be good for Tubular to comment, I don't want to be posting inaccuracies...
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KrisRoberts
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 115
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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Two weeks ago after Charlie had taken a look at the tube I called Tubular and left a message saying that I wanted to talk to them about it.
Apparently that was out of the question.
Here's the text message I received as the response:
| Quote: | Fri, Nov 14, 1:11pm
From: 407-XXX-XXXX
Got your voicemail
Have no wish to waste further time wuith u
Email whatever the report says from charlie and I will deal with it
Do not call again despite what you think the owners of q4 ae not at your beck and call
Forward the report and we will deal with it directly and appropriately
Regards |
Here is the email thread that transpired after that.
| Quote: | From: Kris
Subject: Re: crt
To: Tubular
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 15:49:48 -0800 (PST)
You win.
Charlie is not comfortable putting anything in writing for you and I will
not press the issue with him.
I dont believe I did anything that would have burned the tube to produce
the spots, or exposed it to any abuse that could have produced a 16x9 wear
pattern in the 45min I displayed video.
The fact that both exist indicate a severe manufacturing and quality control
problem.
No, I am not going to accuse you of selling a used tube as new (in spite of
the fact that the first tube you sent was clearly previously mounted and
scratched on the face of the glass; I will trust that it was 'electronically
new').
It seems wrong to me for you to advertise a Panasonic tube and sell something
else. You can explain all you want about who makes them and where they come
from, and even insist that they are superior to a Panasonic tube. But at
the end of the day you advertise one thing and deliver another.
I did not post to the forums anything about the wear since I expect people
would jump all over that. Charlie, Curt and Terry have talked about the
problems VDC had with getting the process down for coating the tubes and that
along the way they had tubes that needed to be 'aged' to prevent premature
wear.
Suspend your disbelief for a moment and consider that perhaps the spots are
defects that the wear pattern after an extremely short period of use is also
indicative a coating defect.
Keep an eye out for these problems with the clients you continue to serve.
Kris
>To: "Kris"
>Subject: Re: crt
>From: Tubular
>Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 22:56:47 +0000
>
>Kris
>
>You offered the vdc evaluation
>
>Please proceed and let's do this correclty
>
>
>Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Kris
>Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 14:50:53
>To: Tubular
>Subject: Re: crt
>
>
>M-----,
>
>
>I have forwarded your response to Charlie and spoken with him.
>
>He has declined to put anything down on paper for fear that it may be
>used against him. I dont blame him, and completely understand his
>position.
>
>When I had spoken to him initially, there was no expectation of an
>"official report from VDC". I had told him about the situation and
>asked if he would be willing to look at it and give me his professional
>opinion. That is what he has done, and I'm grateful for his input.
>
>I posted to that effect on the forum.
>Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:30pm KrisRoberts wrote:
> I think I will proceed with the suggestion of sending the tube
> to VDC for a second opinion.
>
>The paypal complaint was closed by paypal the same day it was opened.
>Their history shows:
>Oct. 30, 2008 - Buyer: Complaint Case filed
>Oct. 30, 2008 - PayPal: Email sent to seller
>Oct. 30, 2008 - PayPal: Case closed
>Status - We're unable to decide this claim in your favor at this time.
>PayPal's Buyer Complaint Policy applies to the shipment of goods but not
>to disputes about merchandise quality.
>
>The following day when you entered into the discussion, you set the
>expectation for some sort of published report and paypal inquery.
>Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:23pm caligraphic wrote:
> After all these evaluations are complete return the CRT to me
> and we will continue with the offer i made earlier to but i
> insist that you complete the path you have gone down as it is
> only fair. Charlie from VDC can publish his findings and we can
> have Paypal also review the results
>
>Given the tone of all your communications so far I appreciate Charlie's
>position and will not press him for a written report. I never promised
>you any such thing.
>
>He has offered to mark the tube to indicate where all the spots are
>and return it to you. Perhaps without the mounting hardware in the way
>you and your experts can see more clearly for yourselves that it is as
>he describes.
>
>Kris
>
>
>>
>> Kris
>>
>> Your email has been forwarded to me and I wish to reiterate everything I
>> have said so far.
>>
>> Send me the written report from Charlie for my file and I will action
>> it. If the report is as you say below then I will refund.
>>
>> Are these instructions clear enough
>>
>> I wish to get on to my day job and be done with this and not sure I can
>> be any planer in my requests. Regardless of what you guys think and say
>> we are ethical and honorable and beyond reproach, so send the report and
>> I believe you will be satisfied with the results.
>>
>> As for the wear pattern on the glass, I have an idea where you are
>> coming from on this but we do not use anything with 16:9 in our office
>> for any CRT work and have been audited as such and can prove it. If the
>> 16:9 wear pattern is there it wasn't put there by us. Yet another
>> strange occurrence to do with this unit that appears to be passed around
>> all over the place without any control.
>>
>> If I see any blog report that I am trying to sell you a used CRT as new
>> I will class this as a direct and unfounded accusation and will take
>> official steps to defend my company from any further groundless attacks.
>> Sorry to take this approach with you but to say I am sick of this whole
>> deal is putting it too mildly and now there appears to be the next phase
>> of 'wear on the crt' that will become the next 'hang em high' story by
>> you and your little crowd..
>>
>> Do not ask to come and audit my office cos it ain't going to happen, but
>> I can prove the rigs I have and what they run at and none of them do
>> 16;9, so suggest you look elsewhere for your wear scape goat.
>>
>> In conclusion send the written official report from VDC as promised and
>> I will action immediately and be free of it.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> ___________________________________
>>
>>
>> From: Kris
>> Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 10:54 PM
>> To: Tubular
>> Cc: Kris
>> Subject: Re: Green P19LUG
>>
>>
>> T------,
>>
>> Terry removed the mounting hardware and sent it to Charlie at VDC.
>>
>> I spoke to Charlie yesterday.
>>
>> His opinion is that the pinholes are defects in the phosphor that were
>> present in manufacturing when the tube was aluminized.
>>
>> He says that when magnified he can clearly see reflective silver behind
>> the holes.
>>
>> He tells me that if they were burns that aluminum would have been
>> destroyed from the other side of the tube face.
>>
>> He does not believe pinhole spots like these could have been produced by
>> an end user burning the tube.
>>
>> Also of note is that both Terry and Charlie report the face of the tube
>> appears to clearly have a 16x9 wear pattern.
>>
>> This is another mystery since I had the tube in my projector for about
>> 24 hours, and only showed full frame video on it for about 45min at
>> contrast 70 after doing registration and focus to see if the spots would
>> be tolerable.
>>
>> I would say that there is no way the tube was on for more than 10 hours
>> total and the bulk of that time was displaying the internal grid or
>> cross test patterns at contrast 50.
>>
>> While at your facility, was the tube put in any condition that would
>> have created a wear pattern? If it was there when I had the tube, it
>> was not visible through the glycol and c-element.
>>
>>
>> Please advise,
>>
>> Kris Roberts |
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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secstate
Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Posts: 720
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| Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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Based on the data you provided about PayPal:
"The paypal complaint was closed by paypal the same day it was opened.
>Their history shows:
>Oct. 30, 2008 - Buyer: Complaint Case filed
>Oct. 30, 2008 - PayPal: Email sent to seller
>Oct. 30, 2008 - PayPal: Case closed
>Status - We're unable to decide this claim in your favor at this time.
>PayPal's Buyer Complaint Policy applies to the shipment of goods but not
>to disputes about merchandise quality.
"
It sounds like you filed and Item Not Recieved (INR) rather than an item signficantly not as described (SNAD). The SNAD covers receipt of an item that is not as described. You have 45-days to file one as I recall. Also you can probably still do a credit card chargeback for 60-90 days even if you have exhausted PayPal's protection. If you did not pay by CC this is why you should always do so even though it requires an extra step with PayPal.
I have actually never had a problem with PayPal but I do frequent some Ebay sellers forums where all this is covered. Generally speaking the SNAD is decided in the buyers favor (at least to hear the sellers complain about it). If you are still within the 45-day window I suggest you try to file a SNAD and if you paid with a credit card do a chargeback.
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kschmit2
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 1141
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:32 am Post subject: |
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Who the hell audits a projection CRT manufacturing plant nowadays?
There is not a single independent team of qualified experts left that can do that. Everything wrt quality of products is in-house auditing in that area, only safety related items can be checked externally, e.g. X-ray related stuff.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:30 am Post subject: |
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FWIW, I figure up the Chinese version of the LUG today, it's been curing here.
So far at 10IRE (more or less to save my eyes) it's flawless, and at a contrast of 90 if _just_ starts to defocus. That's better than a bunch of the LUGs from Panasonic that I've had here in the past.
However.. I'm 20 minutes into running the tube. I am going to slowly ramp up the all white field, as if I was conditioning a VDC rebuild. Maybe that is needed for these tubes, who knows?
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Chuchuf
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 548
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | FWIW, I figure up the Chinese version of the LUG today, it's been curing here.
So far at 10IRE (more or less to save my eyes) it's flawless, and at a contrast of 90 if _just_ starts to defocus. That's better than a bunch of the LUGs from Panasonic that I've had here in the past.
However.. I'm 20 minutes into running the tube. I am going to slowly ramp up the all white field, as if I was conditioning a VDC rebuild. Maybe that is needed for these tubes, who knows? |
Based on the wear I saw on Kris's tube after 10hrs or less of being projected in a 16:9 pattern, there is no doubt in my mind that Kris's tube suffers from the same premature wear problems that were associated with certain early rebuilds in the past. I would certainly bring them up slow over the course of 100hrs.
This really is to bad for Kris and it is a shame that it turned into a d**k measuring contest on one parties part rather than being treated as a defect as it should have been. Just p*ss poor customer service.
Terry
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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Only speculating here, but with cost cutting measures that any 'new' company uses these days, it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't run the tubes at the factory. Into hour 12 of running the tube now...
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| The ***hole wrote: | >> I wish to get on to my day job and be done with this and not sure I can
>> be any planer in my requests. Regardless of what you guys think and say
>> we are ethical and honorable and beyond reproach, ... |
That's the biggest joke in this whole sorry story. In his interactions he has been about as far from "ethical and honorable" as he could be.
I'd say Terry's being VERY generous to describe this fiasco as only "p*ss poor customer service." Somebody who delivers a used and damaged tube as new, then delivers a defective new tube and refuses to make it good, and lastly is insulting and rude to his mistreated customer, has no business being in business. And I suspect he won't be for long. If that's his attitude toward us "annoying small-potatoes" customers, I have no doubt the same attitude will eventually show up with his "real" customers as well. I hope they end up giving him as much grief as he gave Kris. Grrr.
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | | The ***hole wrote: | >> I wish to get on to my day job and be done with this and not sure I can
>> be any planer in my requests. Regardless of what you guys think and say
>> we are ethical and honorable and beyond reproach, ... |
That's the biggest joke in this whole sorry story. In his interactions he has been about as far from "ethical and honorable" as he could be.
I'd say Terry's being VERY generous to describe this fiasco as only "p*ss poor customer service." Somebody who delivers a used and damaged tube as new, then delivers a defective new tube and refuses to make it good, and lastly is insulting and rude to his mistreated customer, has no business being in business. And I suspect he won't be for long. If that's his attitude toward us "annoying small-potatoes" customers, I have no doubt the same attitude will eventually show up with his "real" customers as well. I hope they end up giving him as much grief as he gave Kris. Grrr. |
no kidding, that guy is a real Tool. Once pay-pal decided against Kris he knew he eas off the hook. Now he's demaninding a "signed letter" from charlie because he knows dam well know no one with a brain would actually put his name on a document that could get him or his company sued. Of course he could actually pick up the phone and call Charlie but that would mean having to own up to his responibility, which he ovsiously has no intention of doing. Well let that seve as a warning, do not buy fom tubular outlet.
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