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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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Also, for the XG135LC 1080i at 96 Hz could well be an outstanding option for film based material. No judder, and it is right between 1080i and 1080p at 60 Hz.
craigr
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Axatax
Joined: 01 Nov 2006
Posts: 403
TV/Projector: Sony VPH-G70Q (aka Barco Cine8 Onyx)
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | On some projectors like tricked out 9500LC's or on the G90 you will likely be able to see scan lines at some points so on these projectors 1080i 120 isn't that great... |
On the G90, one way to work around this is to make the beam shape slightly oval.
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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I am very sensitive to jutter but honestly could not see it at 1080p@60Hz on Cliff’s stack with a VP50pro. I was so impressed that I would consider one instead of an HTPC if money was not an object. I don’t know how they did it…But it looked incredibly smooth. Gary M is a big VP50 guy, while a lot of what he says is full of crap...I think on VP50 he's right.
Mike
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Mark_A_W
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Axatax wrote: | | Quote: | | I use 1080i 120 Hz on lot of projectors and it's not radical at all. It is the exact same bandwidth as 1080p 60 Hz. The advantage of 1080i 120 is that if you have a video processor that can do IVTC then you will have zero judder on film and US video. 120 is an even multiple of both 24 and 60 |
This would also mean going back to analog connections from the VP to the PJ. No problem unless you're trying to interface a BDP, etc. to the processor via HDMI (necessitating another black box). |
Why? It's almost exactly the same res as 1080p 60hz.
It's not a new concept at all. My TV runs 1080i 100hz native, which is the "PAL/50hz" version of 1080i 120hz.
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:46 am Post subject: |
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Mike commented:
> ...honestly could not see it at 1080p@60Hz on Cliff’s stack with a VP50pro... I don’t know how they did it…But it looked incredibly smooth <
That's an interesting observation. I don't know how they could do it either, since if it really was 60 Hz, it had to have the 3:2 cadence. 
Are you sure it was really 60 Hz?
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| VideoGrabber wrote: | Mike commented:
> ...honestly could not see it at 1080p@60Hz on Cliff’s stack with a VP50pro... I don’t know how they did it…But it looked incredibly smooth <
That's an interesting observation. I don't know how they could do it either, since if it really was 60 Hz, it had to have the 3:2 cadence.
Are you sure it was really 60 Hz? |
Yep...I asked him about it...It didn't make sense to me either, but I know what I saw. Gary M said the same thing about his VP50pro and I took it with a grain of salt until I saw Cliff's setup.
Mike
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| VideoGrabber wrote: | Mike commented:
> ...honestly could not see it at 1080p@60Hz on Cliff’s stack with a VP50pro... I don’t know how they did it…But it looked incredibly smooth <
That's an interesting observation. I don't know how they could do it either, since if it really was 60 Hz, it had to have the 3:2 cadence.
Are you sure it was really 60 Hz? |
Yepp , i was there no judder at all. The VP50pro has excellent 3:2 pulldown, you have to remeber not all 3:2 pull downs are created equal some have a hard time keeping locked to it thus causing the judder mike sees. the Vp50pro i hear is one of the best at adressing this issue.
Athanasios
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:25 am Post subject: |
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Every time these discussions come up I get interested in a scaler. However, I just can't justify spending more than I have invested in all of my equipment on a single component like that. For those that can I'm sure it's totally worth it but I'm just not in the big leagues like some of these guys. I'm happy with my 1080i at 60hz. Either that or ignorance is bliss I suppose.
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:56 am Post subject: |
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| dropzone7 wrote: | | I'm happy with my 1080i at 60hz. Either that or ignorance is bliss I suppose. |
Yes it is...or at least better for your wallet. 
Mike
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perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2920
Location: Ithaca, NY
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:29 am Post subject: |
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| AnalogRocks wrote: | | Wanman wrote: | | I love CRTs but |
I prefer girls buts myself  |
...but I'd prefer a woman.
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:09 am Post subject: |
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axatax wrote:
> is an electronic loss (scaling) less detrimental than mechanical loss (overlap)? In my case yes, and it's easily observable by the press of a button (I can switch between 1080p60 and 960p72 on demand). <
That's quite interesting, and a bit unexpected. Why? Because the scan-rate on your preferred setting with 960p is actually higher (~72 kHz, vs. ~67 kHz with 1080p), due to the increased frame-rate. That implies yours is less of a BW limitation, than overlapping scan-lines. Thanks for sharing your experience.
> IMHO, the ability to run arbitrary refresh rates and resolutions is one of the greatest (underutilized!) aspects of CRT. <
Agreed! Enormous flexibility there, which means they can be custom-tailored to handle any (or multiple) scenario(s).
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:16 am Post subject: |
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Athan wrote:
> Yepp , i was there no judder at all. <
Thanks for the confirmation. I was starting to wonder if it might just be an NEC thing, that made Mike's judder look worse. So when he saw judder on the G90's, it seemed smooth just because it was less. Apparently not the case.
> The VP50pro has excellent 3:2 pulldown, you have to remeber not all 3:2 pull downs are created equal... <
Well, pull-down is pull-down, if it's working properly. You get an uneven cadence of AA BBB CC DDD, which gets exposed on pans.
> ...some have a hard time keeping locked to it thus causing the judder mike sees. <
I don't doubt that for a minute. But that's a broken implementation, that can't maintain sync lock properly, so it periodically adds/drops frames to catch up. That can be quite noticable even under non-panning conditions. That's not what I understood judder to be.
Also, some units handle edits so poorly that they drop out of lock completely, and have to reacquire all over. That can be particularly disturbing. The VP50's don't have that problem, but edits aren't usually happening constantly in most material. Especially material with otherwise smooth pans.
So I remain confused.
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:25 am Post subject: |
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Mike commented:
> while a lot of what he says is full of crap...I think on VP50 he's right. <
You had to go and put that in there.  Is that what they call "damning with faint praise"?
Anyway, you know the old saying, "Even a broken clock is right twice a day."
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | Yeah, but there aren't any other cheaper options that can handle a 1080p/24 input and output 800p/72 or 96i or whatever... are there?
SC |
A used Lumagen DVI for about $300 or so can accept 1080p/24 (if you trick it) and output up to 800p at various refresh rates. For higher than 800p output you need an HDP which can be had used for about $750 or so.
The only real disadvantage of the DVI vs. the HDP is that if you watch a lot of 1080i film based content, it does not have a true 1080i film mode so you will get occasional artifacts.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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My two cents on the 60 Hz judder thing. Folks in the NTSC contries have grown up watching judder. Just like a bad smell in your house that you eventually become desensitized to, I think most people in NTSC areas just don't see the judder unless it is pointed out to them with just the right scene.
Now, those in PAL-land like our pal Mark have not grown up watching judder. They have seen smooth film their whole lives be it on TV or in the theater. To these folks (and some of us anal f*ckers), judder sticks out like a sore thumb.
If you are in the U.S. and judder does not bother you--don't worry about it. It is about your fun and enjoyment. If you are not sure judder bothers you, try to find a way to compare judder-less to judder full and see if you want to go that route.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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I'd amend that: If you are not sure judder bothers you ... go enjoy your projector, and be grateful you just saved $1000. 
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | Axatax wrote: | | Well, I do exactly that: 1080p to 1440x960 on a G70. Reason being, from my seating distance, 1080p and 960p are impossible to discern. What I gain from going through the VP is proper 72Hz for film, a progressive picture, and no softening from the higher resolution. I loose nothing, and only gain. |
You're throwing away 33% of the original image resolution and you're not losing anything? Sounds like you're losing 33% of the source resolution, to me!
Now, I'm not saying it would be any better with the full 1080p in tact, so perhaps you're not losing anything over 1080p displayed on your projector, but to say you're losing nothing isn't exactly accurate. |
You are overestimating the impact of that 33% loss in resolution. Couple things: resolution is definately one of those "diminishing returns" categories. Image brightness, shadow detail, and color accuracy all are more important than sheer resolution in terms of overall realism of the image. Is there a big difference between 480p and 1080p? Hell yes. Between 720p (let alone 1440x960) and 1080p--not so much.
Further, not all resolution is created equal. decreases in horizontal resolution are less noticeable than decreases in vertical resolution. Your G70 is not handling all of the 1920 (you probably have an effective resolution around 1600-1700 horizontal), but it still looks good. 1440x960 has a vertical resolution 89% of the original--pretty much unnoticable. The less important horizontal is downscaled to 75% of the original width--again pretty much unnoticable on content.
One other thing to note--upscaling well is hard, downscaling well is easy (I could teach my 6 year old to write a good downscaling algorithm) so resolution differences will also be minimal if the content is 1080p to start with.
I would be shocked if you could reliably tell the difference between 1440x960 and 1080p in double or single blind tests.
This was proven anecdotally by a Greek home theater group when they compared two nearly identical Marantz DLP projectors (one DC3 720p, one 1080p) in a single blind test. Most of the viewers thought the two pictures (stacked one on top of the other, each showing the top half of the image) virtually indistinguishable from 1.5x 16:9 screen width or greater.
From my own experience going gray and doing a CIH set up, I did side by side comparisons between good DC3 720p DLPs and decent 1080p LCDs. The increased CR (ANSI and real on/off), image brightness, and color "pop" made just about every 720p DLP with an on/off CR of 3000:1 or better look better than the 1080p LCDs when viewed from my primary viewing location of 2.84x picture height (CinemaScope ideal is 2.85x height and SMPTE recommended is 3x picture height). The only place where the 1080p was superior was in scope images where the smaller pixel spacing helped. When the picture is stretched horizontally 33% even on a DC3 720p PJ, the vertical pixel spaces become "just visible" in large white areas.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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Dave wrote:
> Now, those in PAL-land like our pal Mark have not grown up watching judder. <
Hey, when it's flickering that bad, who cares about a little judder?
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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I'm with you, Tim! I don't notice judder in NTSC, but the 50Hz refresh of PAL drives me *bonkers*.
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bomrat
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 117
Location: chicago
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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just hang the damn thing and enjoy, it'll put out an awsome picture and you already have it its lc, fully color corrected, high bandwidth. get it calibrated and enjoy. ive owned the g70, 10pg and using the g90.. nec has one of the best firmware's point baby none of that zone stuff. if it didn't come with 6pole magnets get some and slap them on. my 2.135 cents
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