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kschmit2
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 1141
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
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| Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | But I think you know what I mean, I have seen some digital's that were too sharp, PJ's and flat screens, the objects looked two dimensional but in a three dimensional scene, so it looks like you have those card board cutout pictures at different distances from you.
Athanasios |
That is the best explanation of a digital picture I have ever seen.
I'm always distracted by that artificial look whenever I watch a digital PJ.
Kai
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DGP
Joined: 05 Nov 2008
Posts: 57
Location: Barcelona
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| Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | I don't know what all the fuss is about sharpness, I was thinking about this the other day while walking in the mall shopping for Xmass. Looking around at the sights there is not a real "sharpness" to objects at any distance with natural eyesight. And yes I can see fine  But I think you know what I mean, I have seen some digital's that were too sharp, PJ's and flat screens, they objects looked two dimensional but in a three dimensional scene, so it looks like you have those card board cutout pictures at different distances from you. So I agree that sharpness isn't everything in a display. Shadow and color gradation details will give a more life Like Image than Sharpness.
Athanasios |
I'm agree with you, when you see with your eyes you will not see such high sharpness. I believe this is the reason why some people recommend to defocus optically a little the digital projectors (smoother luminance transitions produced by the defocused lens).
Beside the CRT hobby my second hobby is to produce some home videos with a semipro HD camera. One of the first things you will notice is that the sharpness or the edge enhancer feature is too strong. What you see on screen looks great if you capture something big enough to fill almost the complete screen (close to a human face or a flour), but when you shot a landscape, the grace and tree leads will look "digital".
I use a soft filter in front of the lens almost all the time to reduce this effect (at least with today's resolutions). The result is that the film looks much more natural.
The luminance level transitions are smoother in the CRT projectors (softer) and I believe that the black level and the softer luminance transitions are the keys why generally CRT looks better with movies.
DGP
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Stonefool
Joined: 24 Dec 2006
Posts: 253
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:30 am Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | Electrogeek wrote: | HDCP is the worst thing ever, and i mean ever
do you know i cannot place an HD DVD on my laptop (even on the internal display) with a non HDCP complain display (Like my VGA LCD) plugged in (ARGH!!!) |
Be pissed off at the thieves. If people had morals and would not steal, they would not have to try to protect the content. It always amazes me that people get mad at the wrong people. |
Err, for risking beeing out on thin ice, but HDCP were created way after the electronic industry already set the standard for DVI, like Macrovision.
The technology was already out at the customers, when MPAA started "negotiating" new laws, making the manufacturers by law adher to buying a licence to be able to use a technology that the electronic consumers already had bought into.
So there was no magical wonder why the consumers started behaving as they did. Even factoring in the fact that the "industry" didn't offer legal services, because someone wishing to offer such a service has to chop through a thicker jungle then the Amazons to get the legal rights for it. (Guess they never figuered their new laws actually would work against them selfs ... but then again that was their problem for trying to upheld the old business model. They are starting to make the news ones working though.)
The basics of, course, is that people only "started" to steal content because there wasn't any other way to get it in the way and format they prefered. People actually don't like others to control their time or how they buy or use something, especially when the technology exist that let them controll their own time. Was the same in the 70/80 and is the same now.
(Actually the psychology behind the behavior in the "digital realm", isn't that much different from how settlers behaved way back when when they started settling themself in the Americas: well well, nice peice of land, I'll think I'm gonna use it, and defend my right to use it as I see fit, and damn every one else who say differently. This behavior actuallt worked for some 300 years, all them actual property owners, the natives ... probably things would have turned out a lot different for them if they, for better or worse, had adapted much much sooner to the "new era".)
_________________
Trying to get everything to work.
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:38 am Post subject: |
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HDMI gives me a headache. I like analog. I can do what ever I want with it.
_________________
Tech support for nothing
CRT.
HD done right!
Last edited by AnalogRocks on Thu Dec 04, 2008 4:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mark_A_W
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: |
Be pissed off at the thieves. If people had morals and would not steal, they would not have to try to protect the content. It always amazes me that people get mad at the wrong people. |
What, like the people who tape cable on their D-VHS recorder?
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark_A_W wrote: | | Person99 wrote: |
Be pissed off at the thieves. If people had morals and would not steal, they would not have to try to protect the content. It always amazes me that people get mad at the wrong people. |
What, like the people who tape cable on their D-VHS recorder? |
In case you are not up to date on this stuff, that is perfectly legal provide I only use it for home viewing and do not sell or distribute it (which I do not do--e.g. I've never sold a D-VHS tape with a movie on it).
Also, D-VHS has controls built into just like everything else (i.e. 5C encryption which has never been hacked). For instance, I can't copy something to tape that they expressly don't want to let me, and I can't copy a movie from one tape to another.
D-VHS has the 5C also because of thieves.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Mark_A_W
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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Blah, blah, Dave, that's a pretty fine moral distinction you make.
Copy is a copy.
You are always willing to sit on your high horse, and cast the first stone. I can sleep at night ripping my BD/HD-DVDs to my PC.
Pirate DVDs are mostly shot in cinemas anyway, and complete rubbish.
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CRT_Ben
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1684
Location: Northern Virginia
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark_A_W wrote: | Blah, blah, Dave, that's a pretty fine moral distinction you make.
Copy is a copy.
You are always willing to sit on your high horse, and cast the first stone. I can sleep at night ripping my BD/HD-DVDs to my PC.
Pirate DVDs are mostly shot in cinemas anyway, and complete rubbish. |
Mark, do you not understand that by with setting the 5C bit, the studios are GIVING PERMISSION to copy once?? What part of this seems like stealing to you?
As an aside, I don't consider ripping BD/HD-DVD to HTPC stealing, as long as it's owned and not a rented disc. It's paid for, you should be able to use it as you please...but this is very different than downloading which is what I believe Dave is talking about...
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Mark_A_W
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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Only because a court forced them.
I remember the frenzy just before 5c was introduced.
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perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2920
Location: Ithaca, NY
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: |
Be pissed off at the thieves. If people had morals and would not steal, they would not have to try to protect the content. It always amazes me that people get mad at the wrong people. |
So, your position is that because some people are thieves, it's not reasonable to get mad at measures which affect people who AREN'T thieves?
Suppose the MPAA got a law passed which said we needed to allow monthly personal inspections of our home theaters for MPAA officials to search for pirated movies. Would you say that someone complaining about that should be pissed off at the thieves instead, and had no reason to be upset at the MPAA or the government that passed such a law?
The issue here isn't with 'thieves' (ahem... copyright infringers) at all - the issue is precisely with the reaction to said thieves. Fine - it's a given that the content producers have been wronged. But that doesn't mean it's RIGHT for them to have carte blanch in response.
Hell, the only reason any of us can watch HD on our CRT PJs at *ALL* is because their content protection system is so braindead - if it were actually effective, it would be impossible (and not merely illegal) for us to watch HD content on a CRT. And if that were the case, would you still be on your moral high horse, urging us to be upset instead at Joe Dipshit, because he downloaded a torrent of Hancock that some Jersey frat boy recorded with his Nokia?
Right.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Stonefool wrote: | | Person99 wrote: | | Electrogeek wrote: | HDCP is the worst thing ever, and i mean ever
do you know i cannot place an HD DVD on my laptop (even on the internal display) with a non HDCP complain display (Like my VGA LCD) plugged in (ARGH!!!) |
Be pissed off at the thieves. If people had morals and would not steal, they would not have to try to protect the content. It always amazes me that people get mad at the wrong people. |
Err, for risking beeing out on thin ice, but HDCP were created way after the electronic industry already set the standard for DVI, like Macrovision. |
Not sure of the point. DVI was a computer standard, it was adopted in A/V as a stop gap.
| Stonefool wrote: | The technology was already out at the customers, when MPAA started "negotiating" new laws, making the manufacturers by law adher to buying a licence to be able to use a technology that the electronic consumers already had bought into.
So there was no magical wonder why the consumers started behaving as they did. |
Yep, you got me here. It is the industries fault for putting DRM out there, they made people steal. Yes, it was the DRM on records that forced people to steal (making copies to cassettes for friends or "mix tapes" they gave away). People NEVER would have done that if Vinyl didn't have the draconian DRM! Puh-lease. 
| Stonefool wrote: | | The basics of, course, is that people only "started" to steal content because there wasn't any other way to get it in the way and format they prefered. People actually don't like others to control their time or how they buy or use something, especially when the technology exist that let them controll their own time. Was the same in the 70/80 and is the same now. |
This is yet another horrible argument. I hope you realize you are making bad arguments. The basics of IP are that the creator has the right to control their own work (i.e. "copy" "right"). You never "buy" a piece of IP--you can't (this is why you "license" software for instance). So, to put it more like the physical realm, it is like renting a house. Now, you are complaining that the actual homeowner is restricting how you use the house (he won't let you tear down walls, etc). Basically, you are saying that you the renter should have the complete right to tear down walls, do whatever you want with the house f*ck the owner.
| Stonefool wrote: | | (Actually the psychology behind the behavior in the "digital realm", isn't that much different from how settlers behaved way back when when they started settling themself in the Americas: well well, nice peice of land, I'll think I'm gonna use it, and defend my right to use it as I see fit, and damn every one else who say differently. |
You are a never ending stream of bad arguments. This is NOT LIKE THAT AT ALL. You think a movie or a piece of software is just a resource someone finds laying around and makes a claim to it and defends their claim?!?!?
At this point, I'm thinking there is no way you can be making arguments this bad, so this is a tongue in cheek joke post, correct?
Do I wish there was no DRM? Yeah, but DRM exists because people seem to have the attitude that you do. "Once I lay my hands on the IP, I can do with it as I will, screw the person who put in the work to create it."
In a perfect world, I wouldn't need locks on my car or house either. But I do. Without all the IP theft, you would not need DRM either, but I personally know several people that mysteriously (or not so mysteriously) posses several ripped blu-ray movies, yet they have never bought a blu-ray disc, nor do they even own a blu-ray player. And you think it is wrong for the property owner to try to stop this?
So, how do you leave it all open and just trust people that have proven they cannot be trusted (people were stealing music off records in the 70s as I pointed out)?
Do I think their fear and rush has led to bad laws, yes. I think the DMCA is a horribly crafted law. Workable ways of managing rights are what need to be focused on, not making some bullsh*t "end justifies the means" argument to approve of theft.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Zebu Fellenz
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 2567
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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Dave,
I have a question that's been bugging me. If you record shows off of a paid TV service (cable, dish, FIOS etc.) can you legally keep the shows if you cancel the service? Not sure if this is grey area or a set in stone law as I've never seen it discussed.
Erik
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kschmit2
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 1141
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| Mark_A_W wrote: |
Pirate DVDs are mostly shot in cinemas anyway, and complete rubbish. |
You obviously have never been to China, or went there with your eyes closed.
You will have a hard time even locating a shop that sells legitimate DVDs. The market is almost entirely covered by pirated discs.
The cheap ones ($0.50-$1.00) are of mediocre quality in many cases basically with bad subtitles, of filmed in a cinema, but the premium ones ($1.50-$3) are digital copies.
Both versions are pressed discs, with the premium ones usually being identical quality wise to what you can buy retail in Australia or the US. The discs usually have Cantonese, Mandarin and English audio tracks, but subtitles.
They are selling billions of these pressed pirated discs, probably more total than all legit discs combined worldwide.
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Mark_A_W
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:00 am Post subject: |
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I've been to half of asia just about, but it's been 8 years.
My mate goes for work to China a lot, and yes, alright, I do know that most of his pirate discs are reasonable quality, but I was trying to make a point! I have two, bought out of curiosity in Malasia, and they both suck. They have been hard coded to 30fps.
It just pisses me off when Dave starts ranting, while packing those D-VHS tapes away, with with perfect 1920x1080 digital HD on them. How many movies did he archive before the 5c was introduced?
How is that legal, while backing up a DVD isn't? No way am I letting my kids get their hands on the originals, kid's movies go straight into the PC, squashed down, and put on the Xbox media centre.
Such a fine line, it's like getting a papal indulgence before committing adultery - it's ok, I gotta piece of paper that says I won't go to hell 
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:48 am Post subject: |
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> How many movies did he archive before the 5c was introduced? <
Not enough. 
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- Tim
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Elaine Benes
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 1416
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: |
5C encryption which has never been hacked |
Wrong again...All JVC D-Theater movies have been posted.
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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Elaine,
I'm not quite sure what to make of your response. By "posted", I'm assuming you mean they've been made available online somewhere, which implies (to you) that the protection has been circumvented. In fact, D-Theatre uses an even more secure encryption than basic 5C (they're not playable on any D-VHS deck other than JVC), and I doubt either has been cracked (though I suppose anything is possible). It is likely, however, that the D-Theatre films have been captured via the analog outputs (BlackMagic, etc), and redigitized.
If what you're claiming was true, all those films would have their original bitrates of ~28 MBit/sec, so they'd be easy to discern from other variants.
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- Tim
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Elaine Benes wrote: | | Person99 wrote: |
5C encryption which has never been hacked |
Wrong again...All JVC D-Theater movies have been posted. |
What Tim said. Being captured via analog outputs is not hacking the ecryption scheme. Further (doing some encryption work as part of my day job) their are several encryption schemes that have never been cracked (for instance AES). The Encrytion used on BD and HD DVD has never been cracked--the content is got at only via effective side channel attacks. There has never been a successful side channel attack on 5C or DTheater due to the key management scheme.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark_A_W wrote: | Blah, blah, Dave, that's a pretty fine moral distinction you make.
Copy is a copy.
You are always willing to sit on your high horse, and cast the first stone. I can sleep at night ripping my BD/HD-DVDs to my PC.
Pirate DVDs are mostly shot in cinemas anyway, and complete rubbish. |
Hold on a second, lets be clear. My arguments are generally of the ethical not legal sort. I may point out what is legal and what is not legal, but personally I focus on the ethical. So, lets be clear on two points:
1) Do I believe it is ethical to rip a purchased DVD/BD/HD DVD to hard drive for your own personal use. HELL YES. And that should be perfectly legal.
2) Do I think it is ethical to borrow a friends BD and rip it, or rip one and post it on the internet, or download one posted on the internet? HELL NO! This is the problem. This is the type of behavior--which is essentially theft--that so much scum takes part in. This is the whole reason DRM of any sort exists. If this didn't ever happen, there would be no DRM.
So, I have a hard time blaming the IP owners for trying to protect their property from this scum. I like the doors of my house when I leave to protect my property from the same sort of scum.
I have issues with DMCA mostly because it makes number 1 illegal which I think should be legal both ethically and under any type of fair use concept/law.
Since I can't blame the IP owners for trying to stop 2 and it is impossible for them to just run around and catch everyone, DRM is really their only solution. What I think we need is workable DRM that allows number 1 but not number 2.
Do you really disagree with all this?
_________________
Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| DGP wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: | I don't know what all the fuss is about sharpness, I was thinking about this the other day while walking in the mall shopping for Xmass. Looking around at the sights there is not a real "sharpness" to objects at any distance with natural eyesight. And yes I can see fine But I think you know what I mean, I have seen some digital's that were too sharp, PJ's and flat screens, they objects looked two dimensional but in a three dimensional scene, so it looks like you have those card board cutout pictures at different distances from you. So I agree that sharpness isn't everything in a display. Shadow and color gradation details will give a more life Like Image than Sharpness.
Athanasios |
I'm agree with you, when you see with your eyes you will not see such high sharpness. I believe this is the reason why some people recommend to defocus optically a little the digital projectors (smoother luminance transitions produced by the defocused lens).
The luminance level transitions are smoother in the CRT projectors (softer) and I believe that the black level and the softer luminance transitions are the keys why generally CRT looks better with movies.
DGP |
My eyes perceive a sharpness in real life that exceeds even the best set up 9" CRTs I've ever seen. So I'm not sure what you are talking about.
Now, some digitals are "over sharp" I will agree and it is easily remedied as you point out. They can end up looking much more like the sharpness of reality than any 8" machine--period.
As far as CRT looking better with movies, you can't use that as a blanket statement. Last night we watched Prince Caspian on a DLP. On all the low APL scenes, the CRT would look better due to black level that exists in real life. But on the high APL scenes (of which there are many), the DLP simply blows away any CRT--period. Your eyes to not perceive the world with the horrible ANSI CR of a CRT.
As for dimensionality, I don't buy that, it varies. A high ANSI CR PJ looks much more 3 dimensional on hgih APL scenes than a low ANSI CR PJ does. A high on/off CR PJ looks much more 3 dimensional on low APL scenes thatn a low on/off CR PJ does. So, you can't categorical say that CRTs always look more 3 dimensional--this is false, I've done many side by sides. Ask Art if he thinks his current Sim2 looks less three dimensional than his G90 stack. He'll tell you no and how much the high ANSI CR gives him a woody now.
Current there is no projector that has both very high native on/off and very high ANSI CR. That is the goal and would be awesome.
I'm not sure if you guys that take a "CRT is always better" view have really compared to decent well set up digitals or if you are still comparing to the digitals of 5 years ago.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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