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angryht
Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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I can't seem to post correctly.
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angryht
Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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Let me try again. Number 3) here makes be believe I have a sync problem: http://weblogs.java.net/blog/chet/archive/2006/02/make_your_anima.html
When I run 1024x768 from my PC the projector indicates that it is 78 Hz (I don't have the option to run 1280 X 720 with my current video card). When I run the blu-ray player it shows the incoming signal as 80 Hz. Does that make sense? By the way thanks for all the help so far.
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angryht
Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | Yeah, the RGBHV out of the Extron boxes are on individual BNC connectors, so you'd need VGA-BNC breakout cable.
This isn't sounding like a sync issue to me. The red flag for me was when you mentioned the "tearing" and that it was more noticeable on pans. A synch issue should (in general) be irrespective of program material.
To me, it sounds like a scaling issue with the internal scaler. Do you have another display (a CRT monitor preferable) that you can test the HD Fury and your source with? I'll put my money on the fact that your source and HD Fury will look fine on a different display, and that the problem is the scaling in the BenQ projector. Probably not what you want to hear, of course.
SC |
OK. I tried my CRT computer monitor. No artifacts, no scrolling line. So I think that eliminates the ground loop question. It is either scaling or syncing, I think. The problem doesn't only happen when there is a pan, but that is when I can reproduce it consistently. When I look at the scrolling line up close, it looks exactly like the pixels below it are shifted slightly to the left.
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angryht
Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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One more thing. I do not see the problem when I am sending the signal via component cable/vga cable. Just when I go through HDMI, which is the only way I can upconvert at the blu-ray player. Which is part of the reason I think it is not a scaling issue, but I still don't know.
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| angryht wrote: | | ecrabb wrote: | Yeah, the RGBHV out of the Extron boxes are on individual BNC connectors, so you'd need VGA-BNC breakout cable.
This isn't sounding like a sync issue to me. The red flag for me was when you mentioned the "tearing" and that it was more noticeable on pans. A synch issue should (in general) be irrespective of program material.
To me, it sounds like a scaling issue with the internal scaler. Do you have another display (a CRT monitor preferable) that you can test the HD Fury and your source with? I'll put my money on the fact that your source and HD Fury will look fine on a different display, and that the problem is the scaling in the BenQ projector. Probably not what you want to hear, of course.
SC |
OK. I tried my CRT computer monitor. No artifacts, no scrolling line. So I think that eliminates the ground loop question. It is either scaling or syncing, I think. The problem doesn't only happen when there is a pan, but that is when I can reproduce it consistently. When I look at the scrolling line up close, it looks exactly like the pixels below it are shifted slightly to the left. |
Good you've tested with a CRT. They are the best for testing. I have 15 of them here. 
It does sound like the 6200 doesn't like the signal timings. I think the next step may be an Extron box. I own the 202 and it has plenty of shift to the right in it. You can also test changing from positive sync to negative sync and vise versa. That mayhelp the issue. Also at $25 plus the shipping it's not too expensive if it doens't work out for you.
Your other option, is to enquire with HKmod about exchanging the HDFury1 for an HDFury2. The HDFury2 has the left shift issue corrected out of the box.
I hear they may be offering an upgrade program for HDFury1 owners.
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angryht
Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| AnalogRocks wrote: | Your other option, is to enquire with HKmod about exchanging the HDFury1 for an HDFury2. The HDFury2 has the left shift issue corrected out of the box.
I hear they may be offering an upgrade program for HDFury1 owners. |
I'll look for the link on the exchange. So do you think this is a left shft issue? I'd like to solve it without getting another piece of equipment but it sounds like the Extron would give me more to adjust.
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AnalogRocks
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| angryht wrote: | | AnalogRocks wrote: | Your other option, is to enquire with HKmod about exchanging the HDFury1 for an HDFury2. The HDFury2 has the left shift issue corrected out of the box.
I hear they may be offering an upgrade program for HDFury1 owners. |
I'll look for the link on the exchange. So do you think this is a left shft issue? I'd like to solve it without getting another piece of equipment but it sounds like the Extron would give me more to adjust. |
It may be a left shift issue. I'm wondering if your projector is looking for standardized PC/HD signal timings on the VGA port and scalling as if it's getting them. The inherant problem with the digital to analog conversion was the left offset. Again just therorizing here. I think I'd personaly go for the Extron. Even it doesn't work out for you, you could always sell it again for just about what you paid. They are a handy little box to have for video, in addition to picture shift they offer gain controls to help you drive long cables and you can change a Positive sync signal to Negative sync and vice versa. That alone may help the situation. Again just a guess.
As it stands right now you've pretty much exhausted your options with what you have. You've tested the HDFury on a CRT and the pictures OK, you know the cable works, it's just the 6200 isn't liking the signal timings. So to change the signal timings you can add the Extron or the Box1020. Extron being the cheaper of the two deals.
Just make sure the Extron has all the conectors you need. The Extron's signal input is 9 pin and the output is usually BNC so keep that in mind. You may need some more cables.
The Box1020 is VGA HD15 in and out and also component out.
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angryht
Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:22 am Post subject: |
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Yeah. Looks like I will need a few more cable for the Extron. I'm trying to find a 9-pin to a 15-pin vga. I haven't had any luck at monoprice. garyfritz: What is the cable that you have with the Extron?
Analog: There is also a sync on green adjustment in the service menu. That is one setting I haven't tried yet. Do you know if 'sync on green' (SOG) is only for YPbPr signals?
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:40 am Post subject: |
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My Extron includes the specialized Extron cable. (Which cost me about $20 all by itself, if I remember right.  ) You can feed standard VGA into the cable and it converts it to the goofy Extron 9-pin input. You just need a RGBHV 5BNC -> VGA breakout adapter to turn the BNC outputs into VGA for your Benq. You can get those for a couple of bucks.
The Benq has a SOG adjustment? That can't apply to YPbPr, there *isn't* any green in that. It must only apply to the VGA input.
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AnalogRocks
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:53 am Post subject: |
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| angryht wrote: | Yeah. Looks like I will need a few more cable for the Extron. I'm trying to find a 9-pin to a 15-pin vga. I haven't had any luck at monoprice. garyfritz: What is the cable that you have with the Extron?
Analog: There is also a sync on green adjustment in the service menu. That is one setting I haven't tried yet. Do you know if 'sync on green' (SOG) is only for YPbPr signals? |
Sync on green is used for VGA. You essentially use 3 wires instead of the 5 that you would used for RGBHV, SOG is RGB. Not to be confused with component. There's also composite sync RGsB, does your BenQ take that as well? That uses 4 of the 5 wires, The extron can combine sync's to produce this signal. Again not sure if it would help you or not.
Here's a little primer to help you out: http://www.curtpalme.com/CRTPrimer_17.shtm
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ecrabb
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Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:40 am Post subject: |
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Jeremy, RGsB is SoG. Composite sync is denoted RGBS.
Consider your nit picked. 
RGBHV - 5 wire
RGBS - 4 wire
RGsB - 3 wire
SC
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angryht
Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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I think I figured it out. And it looks like you were correct, ecrabb:
| ecrabb wrote: | To me, it sounds like a scaling issue with the internal scaler. Do you have another display (a CRT monitor preferable) that you can test the HD Fury and your source with? I'll put my money on the fact that your source and HD Fury will look fine on a different display, and that the problem is the scaling in the BenQ projector. Probably not what you want to hear, of course.
SC |
I swear I checked this before but this is what I did. I set the projector to 'native' which is one to one (pixel for pixel) no scaling and the artifact (scrolling line) went away! I don't understand why it doesn't happen when it is scaling down the component input.
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angryht
Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:46 am Post subject: |
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Does that make sense to anyone?
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AnalogRocks
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:06 am Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | Jeremy, RGsB is SoG. Composite sync is denoted RGBS.
Consider your nit picked.
RGBHV - 5 wire
RGBS - 4 wire
RGsB - 3 wire
SC |
Details details don't bother me with the details son. ~W.C. Fields
I knew I should have looked that up again. Honestly I forget more information than I retain sometimes. Like the character in the Steven King Novel, Dreamcatcher. I toss some out to make room for more.
EDIT: tyop
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Last edited by AnalogRocks on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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AnalogRocks
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Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:08 am Post subject: |
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| angryht wrote: | I think I figured it out. And it looks like you were correct, ecrabb:
| ecrabb wrote: | To me, it sounds like a scaling issue with the internal scaler. Do you have another display (a CRT monitor preferable) that you can test the HD Fury and your source with? I'll put my money on the fact that your source and HD Fury will look fine on a different display, and that the problem is the scaling in the BenQ projector. Probably not what you want to hear, of course.
SC |
I swear I checked this before but this is what I did. I set the projector to 'native' which is one to one (pixel for pixel) no scaling and the artifact (scrolling line) went away! I don't understand why it doesn't happen when it is scaling down the component input. |
Ahhh good, progress.
It may not happen on the component input because of the analog signal timing.
I take it you don't get a proper display whith the 1:1 maping turned on?
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angryht
Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| AnalogRocks wrote: | Ahhh good, progress.
It may not happen on the component input because of the analog signal timing.
I take it you don't get a proper display whith the 1:1 maping turned on? |
That's correct. My display is 1024 x 768 native. Any suggestions? Am I just going to live with it or will a Fury2 help?
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ecrabb
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Joined: 13 Mar 2006
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Location: Utah
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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It could also be that the built-in scaler is operating in a completely different more time-sensitive mode using the component inputs... It has to be working differently because you would generally scale that input with overscan and cropping to have a nice clean letterbox.
On the other hand, in native mode it may be erring on the side of spatial quality (as opposed to temporal quality) because it's designed for PowerPoint/desktop-type activity, and not 60fps video. I'm just guessing - I have no idea about what the BenQ can or can't do or what it should or should not be doing.
I think the Fury 2 would certainly be worth a try, as you could get most of your money back out of it.
OTOH, for not much more money than buying and HD Fury 2, you could probably sell the BenQ and put the money toward a nice used 720p DLP and kill two birds with one stone. Not only would you eliminate your weird scaling issue, but you'd go to a widescreen projector and best of all get a 56% resolution boost (1024x576 -> 1280x720). I'd probably go that route.
SC
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angryht
Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 1:36 am Post subject: |
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Good point(s). Thanks again.
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AnalogRocks
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:53 am Post subject: |
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Have you considered a CRT projector?
Again, I'm betting the Box1020 may help you here. You'd be going from RGBHV to componenet into your projector. By passing the VGA scaling and you'd have the IAC control if the picture was still shifted.
I personaly own the Box1020 and the HDFury1, as a stand alone the HDFury1 was a good product, but attached to the Box1020 it was much, much better. What a great combo.
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angryht
Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| AnalogRocks wrote: | | Have you considered a CRT projector? |
Seriously, I would consider anything that would get me better picture quality. I always thought a CRT would be too big for my room. It's only about 10 FT wide and 13 FT long. It's pretty tight quarters. Any suggestions for a room that small. And aren't they kind of loud (fan)?
| AnalogRocks wrote: | Again, I'm betting the Box1020 may help you here. You'd be going from RGBHV to componenet into your projector. By passing the VGA scaling and you'd have the IAC control if the picture was still shifted.
I personaly own the Box1020 and the HDFury1, as a stand alone the HDFury1 was a good product, but attached to the Box1020 it was much, much better. What a great combo. |
So that would convert the RBG signal to a component. Would the Fury2 do both, too?
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