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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:04 am Post subject: |
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It is amusing that Michael Moore cannot be overlooked and commentary on the subject at hand be talked about.
Kal, you lock your doors, right? 
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kal
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| WanMan wrote: | It is amusing that Michael Moore cannot be overlooked and commentary on the subject at hand be talked about.
Kal, you lock your doors, right? |
Damned straight!
80% of Canadians live in urban areas with an hour of the American border. Most of us all lock our doors too. We may have a lot less gated communites (very few actually) and the overall crime is lower but we're not stupid! 
Kal
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AnalogRocks
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:30 am Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | WanMan wrote: | It is amusing that Michael Moore cannot be overlooked and commentary on the subject at hand be talked about.
Kal, you lock your doors, right? |
Damned straight!
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That should read. 
| Kal wrote: |
80% of Canadians live in urban areas with an hour of the American border. Most of us all lock our doors too. We may have a lot less gated communites (very few actually) and the overall crime is lower but we're not stupid eh!
Kal |
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ecrabb
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Joined: 13 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:46 am Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | I don't have a problem with the overall message that Moore tries to put forward in his movies (ie: guns are bad, US health care sucks, etc). |
I sure do have a problem with the overall message. So do a lot of other people. For instance, guns aren't inherently bad. They're bad in the hands of a criminal, but in the hands of a trained individual using it to protect innocent lives from a criminal, a gun as a damned good thing. By the same token, US health care does not suck. In fact, in some ways, it's second to none. We've already had this debate many times and I think we'd all agree there's no simple "silver bullet" solution. Suffice it to say though, there are some very bad things about the US health care system, and some very good things. Coincidentally, I think you could say the same of the Canadian system, the British system, etc.
That's the problem I have with the Moore films. They don't present a point and a counterpoint. They don't give a fair representation of anything, they don't even TRY to be objective - all things a REAL documentary would do.
| kal wrote: | | His movies are consistently full of 'cherry picked' content which has led many to ask if he's really a documentary film maker at all as he doesn't present both sides of any story. |
Does anybody really have to ask? If a person has any have any intellectual honesty, isn't it pretty much self-evident that he's NOT a real documentarian? Unless we're going to totally redefine what a documentary even is, then I think Moore's... um, films... should be more accurately referred to as "docu-fiction" or... even just plain fiction - that cover some real societal issues.
| WanMan wrote: | | It is amusing that Michael Moore cannot be overlooked and commentary on the subject at hand be talked about. |
But, we discuss all these subjects around here all the time, Wan! Besides, I addressed much of it, already! What do YOU think?
In a way, there's little reason to discuss most of what you refer to as the "subject at hand" because so much of it isn't even as Moore has presented it. Let's say I made a movie called "Deadly Mad" about how the majority of murderers were angry when they committed a murder... Then, let's say the movie was full of distortions and outright fabrications and the main thrust of the film was about how we need to be less angry as a people, and that maybe that would reduce murder... Would you say, "Wow, the movie is full of half-truths, distortions, and outright fabrications, so the film-maker has no credibility, but gee... He does raise good point. Let's discuss the issue." Or, would you say, what an ass," and move on?
My point is... What he's doing is taking obvious cultural issues of the day that trouble everybody on one level or another, and then he intentionally makes the issue more controversial than perhaps it even is, presents it from exactly one point of view (his), and doesn't even really offer any alternative views or solutions (big surprise). He's an opportunist of the worst kind. Then, he's hailed by some as some sort of innovater... "Ooohhh, he's great - at least he's getting people talking about the issues."
Now, if you'd like have a discussion on guns, I'm game. I've always found the politics of firearms an interesting subject. But, we may as well leave "Bowling" completely out of it, since it's mostly bull**** from the get-go.
SC
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | By the same token, US health care does not suck. In fact, in some ways, it's second to none. |
If you look at the health care options that are available, *IF* you are rich enough, maybe it's second to none. But if you look at things like
* The dollars spent vs. results returned
(the US spends far more on health care, per-capita and % of GDP, than any country in the world, yet we trail 30-40 other countries in life expectancy, and we rank just as badly in other important measures of health)
* The inability for many people to afford any form of health care
* The way a single health crisis can financially destroy a family
...etc -- then I'd have to say "US health care sucks" is an accurate description.
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emdawgz1
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 7949
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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SC, i hear what you are saying. And i agree that guns aren't inherently bad. But as a guy who has lived in a large urban center almost my whole life, i'd say that guns cause more misery and worry and strife than almost anything. Yes criminals are the problem but ARMED criminals are the REAL problem. And the answer of citizens with guns just doesnt work here. Now i'm not saying we should get rid of all guns, but why is the nra so opposed to gun registration? Every car sold in this country has a registration #. We can trace its ownership and usage its whole life. Why not guns?
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ecrabb
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | | If you look at the health care options that are available, *IF* you are rich enough, maybe it's second to none. |
Rich? I'm not rich. Nobody I know is rich, yet they all have health care - excellent health care, in fact. I literally do not know a single person who does not have access to very high quality health care. Not a single one... Yet, I don't know any rich people. If I or any of my friends have some major medical issue and would like to go to Mayo Clinic to see an excellent specialist, we can generally do so.
| garyfritz wrote: | But if you look at things like
* The dollars spent vs. results returned
(the US spends far more on health care, per-capita and % of GDP, than any country in the world, yet we trail 30-40 other countries in life expectancy, and we rank just as badly in other important measures of health) |
Yes, we spend a lot of personal dollars on health care... Many other countries spend a lot of tax dollars on health care. The figures never break out other countries' REAL spending on health care. Second, life expectancy and those "other measures" are impacted greatly by other factors NOT directly related to health care. For instance, in general, Americans have terrible diets and activity levels compared to other countries - a combination which no amount of medical treatment or guidance can fix if the individual has no interest in changing habits. Gee, ya think that might skew the numbers a little?
| garyfritz wrote: | | * The inability for many people to afford any form of health care |
Who is "many"? Most of the middle class is covered by an employer's group health insurance plan. Most of the the low end of the socioeconomic spectrum is covered by federally funded and state administered Medicaid. Anybody else doesn't have health insurance either because they aren't willing to make the financial sacrifice necessary to buy any health insurance, or they're the group stuck in the middle - they make too much to be eligible for Medicaid, and too little to buy basic health insurance.
The other problem is that people all expect to have health insurance that covers every hangnail, cold, sneeze and cough. Yeah, health insurance is expensive when you try to buy it with a $2000 deductible. But, look at it with a $10,000 deductible and it gets pretty affordable. Why does everybody family expect to be able to drive a couple of nice, late-model cars that cost $600-800 month total, but the idea of spending $500 a month on health care is some kind of travesty? Why is it OK to take the kids to the amusement park for the day and spend a $150, but the idea of spending $150 at the doctor's office is horrible. A lot of people in this country have a SERIOUS priority problem, and a SERIOUS perspective problem.
| garyfritz wrote: | | * The way a single health crisis can financially destroy a family |
This is true - if you're not covered somehow. But, see my point about buying health insurance or being covered by Medicaid.
| garyfritz wrote: | | ...etc -- then I'd have to say "US health care sucks" is an accurate description. |
I disagree. If you said there are some issues we need to work out to make it more affordable and more accessible for people who can't afford or access it now, and we need to work on ways to make it less expensive for all (somehow), I'd agree. But, universal health care is NOT the answer.
It just kills me. Everybody gets all in a tizzy that an insurance company would "manage" your health care - that they would tell you how to take care of your own body... But, then it's somehow a wonderful idea if we come up with a giant federal bureaucracy to do the same thing. Take a look at how happy veterans are with VA hospitals if you want to get an idea what government-run health care would look like. I'll pass.
SC
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ecrabb
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| emdawgz1 wrote: | | SC, i hear what you are saying. And i agree that guns aren't inherently bad. But as a guy who has lived in a large urban center almost my whole life, i'd say that guns cause more misery and worry and strife than almost anything. Yes criminals are the problem but ARMED criminals are the REAL problem. And the answer of citizens with guns just doesnt work here. |
I understand guns and gun violence are a problem in certain urban settings, but more gun laws, registration, or prohibition are NOT the solutions. Washington D.C. has had an outright ban for 30 years, and it's been a miserable failure. In spite of the nearly complete ban, D.C. has one of the highest gun-crime rates in the states.
The problem is... and this is what the anti-gun zealots can't get through their think skulls... is CRIMINALS DON'T CARE ABOUT GUN LAWS. Only law-abiding citizens abide by them. There is already more than 1 hand gun for every man, woman and child in the country. If you could wave your magic wand tomorrow and make them all vaporize, we'd be set. But, you can't. So, if you pass more laws, new laws, more restrictive laws, only law abiding citizens will abide by them.
| emdawgz1 wrote: | | Now i'm not saying we should get rid of all guns, but why is the nra so opposed to gun registration? Every car sold in this country has a registration #. We can trace its ownership and usage its whole life. Why not guns? |
You mean besides the second amendment? You mean besides that there are no Constitutional rights regarding cars? Besides, that, I don't know. Seriously... Actually, all guns DO have serial numbers just like all guns have VIN's. But, guns and cars are exactly the same in that there IS no national database. If you want to buy a car with cash, and drive it to your house on a trailer and park it in the garage, there would be no record of it anywhere, save for perhaps the manufacturer, and they would only have what information you gave them. The only time you have to register a vehicle anywhere is if you want to license it to drive it on a public road! I guarantee you there are thousands of stock/modified race cars that have never been registered - their VIN wouldn't show up in any government database anywhere.
The reason the NRA is so opposed to national registration is because, if at some point in the future, the anti-gun zealots convince just enough people that we should outlaw guns, there will then be a database of each and every gun sold and where to find it. It's an incremental step toward an outright ban. Not many people are keen to give the government an additional tool that could be used to more easily confiscate the very thing that was designed STOP a tyrannical government. I know... it's far-fetched... But, so are a lot of other things. If you'd asked people 50 years ago if they thought kids would ever be prevented from celebrating Christmas, Easter or Thanksigiving in public school, they'd have called you insane. Yet, that's where we are, now.
See the above about law-abiding citizens. If tomorrow you made national database registration mandatory, it would do absolutely nothing at all to stop urban, inner-city, or drug-related gun violence. None of those guns are sold through legal channels, so any new law will do nothing to change it.
The guns are here to stay. If you want to reduce gun violence, then work on whatever societal ills are breeding the violence, be it gangs, drugs, socioeconomic disenfranchisement, or whatever. In effect, treat the cause, not the symptom.
SC
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | Rich? I'm not rich. Nobody I know is rich, yet they all have health care - excellent health care, in fact. |
I'd bet you and your friends are all employed by large companies that provide your health care, yes? And/or make enough money that you can afford to pay out a sizeable chunk for insurance each month. That makes you "rich enough." Richer than many other people.
Even though I don't hang out in low-income circles that much, I personally know a number of people who don't have health insurance because they cannot afford it. They have a choice of paying for insurance or buying groceries. (I also know quite a few who buy what I would consider luxury items but don't have health insurance, but that's a different issue.)
I guarantee you there are many many people like that in this country. US News says 47 MILLION Americans were uninsured as of 2006. (Honestly I'm surprised it's that low, but that's what the US Census dept says.) US News also says 1/3 of those people have chronic health problems that go untreated.
| Quote: | | Yes, we spend a lot of personal dollars on health care... Many other countries spend a lot of tax dollars on health care. The figures never break out other countries' REAL spending on health care. |
The WHO site I checked earlier today is down right now, but it *included* government spending. And including government spending, the US still spent far more than any other country.
| Quote: | | Second, life expectancy and those "other measures" are impacted greatly by other factors NOT directly related to health care. For instance, in general, Americans have terrible diets and activity levels compared to other countries - a combination which no amount of medical treatment or guidance can fix if the individual has no interest in changing habits. Gee, ya think that might skew the numbers a little? |
Some, but not as much as you might think -- since most of the other industrialized nations have adopted many of our bad habits.
| Quote: | | garyfritz wrote: | | * The inability for many people to afford any form of health care |
Who is "many"? |
1 out of every 7 people in the country, as quoted above. I have to assume that number takes into account federally funded Medicaid, or they wouldn't be "uninsured."
| Quote: | | garyfritz wrote: | | * The way a single health crisis can financially destroy a family |
This is true - if you're not covered somehow. But, see my point about buying health insurance or being covered by Medicaid. |
I personally know someone who was poisoned by eating bad mushrooms. She nearly died, and was barely healthy enough to walk for years, but she got almost zero medical attention. She had no health insurance and got not Medicaid. She only survived because of the charity of her friends. Trust me, it happens.
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greg_mitch
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 5320
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:52 am Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | Washington D.C. has had an outright ban for 30 years, and it's been a miserable failure. In spite of the nearly complete ban, D.C. has one of the highest gun-crime rates in the states.
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To me that example is pretty flawed. It isn't like people who live in D.C. don't ever LEAVE D.C. You can't expect outlawing guns in one area but leaving ALL of the surrounding areas with guns would have ANY affect on guns reducing.
| ecrabb wrote: |
The reason the NRA is so opposed to national registration is because, if at some point in the future, the anti-gun zealots convince just enough people that we should outlaw guns, there will then be a database of each and every gun sold and where to find it. It's an incremental step toward an outright ban. Not many people are keen to give the government an additional tool that could be used to more easily confiscate the very thing that was designed STOP a tyrannical government. |
This is pretty funny and very true. If I knew guns were used only for hunting I would have no problems with it. I know several people that keep handguns in their nightstand loaded! These things need to be registered. That way when people get diagnosed with depression, bipolar disorder, ANY mental illness, there is an immediate APB sent out to local law enforcement that says this thing needs to be confiscated before we have another UNI or WV or whereever.
| ecrabb wrote: |
If you'd asked people 50 years ago if they thought kids would ever be prevented from celebrating Christmas, Easter or Thanksigiving in public school, they'd have called you insane. Yet, that's where we are, now. |
Just go to a private school. We had Christmas pageants and even said the word "Jesus" GASP!
| ecrabb wrote: |
See the above about law-abiding citizens. If tomorrow you made national database registration mandatory, it would do absolutely nothing at all to stop urban, inner-city, or drug-related gun violence. None of those guns are sold through legal channels, so any new law will do nothing to change it. |
Let's make it illegal in the ENTIRE nation. All gun crimes will be increased exponentially in penalty. 
| ecrabb wrote: |
The guns are here to stay. If you want to reduce gun violence, then work on whatever societal ills are breeding the violence, be it gangs, drugs, socioeconomic disenfranchisement, or whatever. In effect, treat the cause, not the symptom.
SC |
This works for drugs. I bet if we made drugs legal and just gave everyone lessons on how to use them there would be NO issues.
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nettwerkjohn
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 921
Location: Blenheim, Marlborough, New Zealand
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:16 am Post subject: |
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well, i for one, find moore's assumption that i am a psychopath waiting to erupt, just because i am armed and want to stay that way, to be patently offensive.
and it's no ones business but my own whether i am armed for sport, to hunt, or to shoot the criminal who wants to rape my wife...
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ecrabb
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| nettwerkjohn wrote: | | well, i for one, find moore's assumption that i am a psychopath waiting to erupt, just because i am armed and want to stay that way, to be patently offensive. |
I find Michael Moore patently offensive.
| Quote: | | and it's no ones business but my own whether i am armed for sport, to hunt, or to shoot the criminal who wants to rape my wife... |
Oh, but it is their business, because see, it's for everybody's good. Everybody knows the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one (you). Their opinion is much more enlightened, informed and educated than is yours. If you have a gun, it's clearly out of ignorant misplaced fear. Michael Moore is way smarter than you. 
SC
Last edited by ecrabb on Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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ecrabb
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:34 am Post subject: |
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Greg, I meant to respond last week, but forgot all about this thread until John put it back on the list.
| greg_mitch wrote: | | To me that example is pretty flawed. It isn't like people who live in D.C. don't ever LEAVE D.C. You can't expect outlawing guns in one area but leaving ALL of the surrounding areas with guns would have ANY affect on guns reducing. |
Amazingly, little old Greg and Steve from Iowa are bright enough to figure that out, yet the morons who wrote and passed the law in D.C. COULDN'T?!!?! Isn't that simply astounding?
| greg_mitch wrote: | | If I knew guns were used only for hunting I would have no problems with it. I know several people that keep handguns in their nightstand loaded! These things need to be registered. That way when people get diagnosed with depression, bipolar disorder, ANY mental illness, there is an immediate APB sent out to local law enforcement that says this thing needs to be confiscated before we have another UNI or WV or whereever. |
So, let's say a guy has a bad streak - a couple things go wrong in his life. Maybe one of his daughters is killed in a car accident... He goes to the doctor to talk about his grief and the shrink gives him a diagnosis of a borderline case of clinical depression and writes him a scrip for some Zoloft and tells him to come for weekly visits until he's healthy again. You're now going to abridge his second-amendment rights to protect his family and himself and send the county sheriff to his house to confiscate any an all the guns he owns?!??! Wow. I'll tell you it's exactly this kind of thought process that is the reason gun advocates are hard-core on the side of gun rights. If they're not, then stuff like this takes people's rights away - little by little.
So, clearly, if we're going to take depressed guy's guns, we should also take his car, too since he could go postal and kill dozens of innocent pedestrians before he could be stopped.
| ecrabb wrote: | | Just go to a private school. We had Christmas pageants and even said the word "Jesus" GASP! |
I had that in public school, too. But, it was 20+ years ago. No more Glad you had private school as an option. A lot of people don't. My wife and I are struggling with what we're going to do when our kids are ready to go to kindergarten. We're disgusted by the idea of public school where there is no discussion or observance allowed of Halloween, Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter, Valentine's Day, or anything else that could be controversial... So much for diversity. But, we don't relish the thought of paying for public school (property taxes), then paying for private school on top of it (which isn't cheap).
| greg_mitch wrote: | | Let's make it illegal in the ENTIRE nation. All gun crimes will be increased exponentially in penalty. |
What about Mexico? Canada? The middle east? Turkey? Isreal? Tens of millions of guns all over the world, and you're going to outlaw them here to stop gun crime. Good idea. I'm sure it will work about as well as the D.C. gun ban and the war on the drugs is working.
| greg_mitch wrote: | | This works for drugs. I bet if we made drugs legal and just gave everyone lessons on how to use them there would be NO issues. |
Exactly. You've simultaneously exposed the fallacy of both drug legalization and an outright gun ban at the same time.
While drugs are strictly controlled and outlawed, they're sold illegally, used and abused by millions. That's simple proof that a ban won't work for guns. Doesn't work for drugs, won't work for guns. People who want something will get it. The worst part about an outright ban is that only the "bad guys" will have them because the law-abiding citizens will have surrendered theirs.
In the reverse, if you legalize drugs and just tax, restrict and control them... Just like guns, drugs will still be trafficked on the black market, still used, and still abused. People will still talk about the problems they're causing, the loopholes... and after a decade or two, we'll have conversations about going back to prohibition (of drugs).
SC
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