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jkruger
Joined: 24 Oct 2007
Posts: 2435
Location: Carlsbad, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:29 pm Post subject: Barco Data 1209s upgade path to graphics scanrate? |
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I have a runco 1100 (bd1209s) that I would like to upgrade to the higher scanrate of the graphics model. I bought a batch of boards from Phil Smith (via Brad the Aggie) that came from a BG1200. I have the 762112 V board, the 762108 H board, and a bunch of others. Here's a link to what I have:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140186802023
Will these work and what else is necessary to do this?
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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Tom.W
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 6635
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r.bauer
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 280
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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It is very difficult to change a BD1209s into a BG1209s. It requires a new motherboard, scan-switch board, power sypply, Hor-defl board, controller-board. And for what?
The RGB signal path of the BD1209s and the BG1209s are exactly the same, and that is what counts. For HT-purposes there is no real need to scan higher than what the BD1209s already does.
The boards from a BG1200 are much earlier versions of the boards used in the 1209(s). The build quality of the 1200 boards is lower (single sided boards).
Just forget you ever bought those 1200 boards, and enjoy your BD1209s. Put a couple of colored C-elements in it, have it calibrated and you are right in CRT heaven.
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jkruger
Joined: 24 Oct 2007
Posts: 2435
Location: Carlsbad, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, I'll forget it. it already has colored c-elements and HFQ-900s on it so I'll just work on the best setup I can get and leave it at that.
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Mad Mr H
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 641
Location: London , England
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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HI,
I dont often tell people that they are wrong, In this case r.bauer YOURE VERY WRONG - Sorry.
First of all, this is NOT just me posting based on what others have done.
I have done this for many customers and ALL my machnes are Graphics units that started as DATA
You need the following.........
The Scan board in the front tube section - the DATA has ONE set of scan coils, the Graphics has two sets
You need the Vertical board - higher spec
You need new controller board that MUST be a graphics unit
You need the Graphics firmware chip (Various vrsions available, I have a few)
(Dont think you need the H board but I would need to check that)
The change brings with it a higher spec machine, this brings a sharper image than the data is capable of.
Is it worth it, YES I believe it is and have changed all my machines.
I have sets of boards available for this if people want.
I also have spare DATA 1209s boards.
Hope thats of help to people,
Andy
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Tom.W
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 6635
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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Andy can you post that Excel sheet here or PM it to me again ? I lost mine in a HD failure...
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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You're all full of crap. All he needs to do for a serious up-grade is trade up to a AmPro 4600HD 
_________________
Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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Tom.W
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 6635
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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Go back to sleep Chip .... The Ampro was only a bad dream,a bad dream,a bad dream............. 
Last edited by Tom.W on Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Tom.W wrote: | | Go back to sleep Chip ! The Ampro was only a bad dream............. |
Wow Tom, that was quick. Did you think that one up your self or did someone put you up to it
_________________
Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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Tom.W
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 6635
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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God made me do it Chip ...
I would blame it on Z but he seems to be missing in action ..... 
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zGman
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:20 pm Post subject: 1209S conversion |
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I think you will need the H board. Or at least the little daughter
board with the scan transition potentiometer.
But I don't see how this is going to create a "sharper image"
The video chain is the same. At least in the 1101 I have here,
the input boards and the neckboards are exactly what is shown
in the 1209S service manual.
G
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r.bauer
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 280
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| Mad Mr H wrote: | HI,
I dont often tell people that they are wrong, In this case r.bauer YOURE VERY WRONG - Sorry.
First of all, this is NOT just me posting based on what others have done.
I have done this for many customers and ALL my machnes are Graphics units that started as DATA
You need the following.........
The Scan board in the front tube section - the DATA has ONE set of scan coils, the Graphics has two sets
You need the Vertical board - higher spec
You need new controller board that MUST be a graphics unit
You need the Graphics firmware chip (Various vrsions available, I have a few)
(Dont think you need the H board but I would need to check that)
The change brings with it a higher spec machine, this brings a sharper image than the data is capable of.
Is it worth it, YES I believe it is and have changed all my machines.
I have sets of boards available for this if people want.
I also have spare DATA 1209s boards.
Hope thats of help to people,
Andy |
Interesting post Andy.
But it raises a few questions.
How can you get a sharper image if non of the focus, astig or video parts are changed?
If you don't change the motherboard, what do you do with the on-board H-width coils? You probably remove them, and use only one 'output' of the H-defl board to feed the scan-switch board. You need to have a look at the safety circuit also.
You only raise the H-scan frequency. I can see only a benefit if you actually have a need for a higher scan frequency or the new Horizontal board has a shorter retrace time, and that is currently an issue in your setup.
I am not speaking from theory, as I have seen a BD1209s in operation and the result in sharpness was the same as with any other BG1209s. Spot-size, scanlines, astig, adjusting them resulted in the same picture quality, so there was no reason for me to start thinking about a possible upgrade because that was also the question they asked me. This projector had HD-120 lenses, at it was just as sharp as a BG1209s.
So yes, I have not performed the mod as I found no reason to. But I am always open for suggestions or new ideas.
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Mad Mr H
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 641
Location: London , England
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| r.bauer wrote: | | If you don't change the motherboard, what do you do with the on-board H-width coils? You probably remove them, and use only one 'output' of the H-defl board to feed the scan-switch board. You need to have a look at the safety circuit also. |
Why would you change the mother board ??? It is the same part in the Data and Graphics units.
H width coils as I mentioned you change the data board for the graphics board, going from one set to two sets of coils and change over relays.
The VERTICAL board and Horizontal board need to be changed (I need to check, I just checked my notes), Controller as well.
Sharpness of image, I would like to think that most agree that as you go up in bandwidth use the image gets softer, going from Data to Graphics spec increases the bandwidth of the PJ and so the same image on a data and Graphics the DATA will look softer.
Recently I was asked these questions from someone who bought a data 1209s based PJ instead of a graphics based unit.
There are VERY FEW DATA 1209s , these were a reduced bandwidth PJ and brought with them a lower cost, Barco gave this unit to Runco whilst they kept the Graphics version - Why give a competitor your best medel ???
Anyway the Data is a great unit but CANT run 1080p72. With todays HD players running 1080p24 the logical final 1080p72 seems to be a goal for many here, I run 72Hz its amazing.
In fact this week I had a visitor who wants to go 144Hz, that brings with it an issue of reduced light output, the higher the refresh rate the lower the tube output.
I get the feeling this post is to try and confirm to someone that the purchase of a DATA based PJ was the right thing to do.
Its a great machine just not a GRAPHICS machine.
This week two people have asked about data to graphics upgrades, I still think it a worthwhile option and have done this to ALL my projectors.
In fact I would not sell a DATA 1209s, Of course I have spare boards from the upgrades.
IF there was NO DIFFERANCE why did Barco produce the two models? In the entire Barco range and STILL today with the digitals the Data is the low spec version of a GRAPHICS..............The ENTIRE Barco range is based on this............
Hope thats of help to people.
Andy.
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r.bauer
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 280
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| Mad Mr H wrote: | | r.bauer wrote: | | If you don't change the motherboard, what do you do with the on-board H-width coils? You probably remove them, and use only one 'output' of the H-defl board to feed the scan-switch board. You need to have a look at the safety circuit also. |
Why would you change the mother board ??? It is the same part in the Data and Graphics units. |
The BD1209s I have seen, had three scan-coil connectors on the motherboard, and my BG1209s has only one feeding the scan-switch board, with no option of adding any connectors later on. So at least these two motherboards were different.
That brings up the question of how many type of BD1209s Barco has produced, and how close the Runco version is to any of them.
| Mad Mr H wrote: |
Sharpness of image, I would like to think that most agree that as you go up in bandwidth use the image gets softer, going from Data to Graphics spec increases the bandwidth of the PJ and so the same image on a data and Graphics the DATA will look softer. |
The thing is that the BD1209s has the same video circuitry as the BG1209s, including the 120Mhz neckboards. So with the 1209s series there is no difference in video bandwidth between the Data and the Graphics model. This is an exception in the Barco model range. I am aware of another exception, and that is that Barco has produced lots of late model BD808s projectors with P16 MEC tubes and liquid coupled lenses. These models also had the graphics video circuitry including the 120Mhz neckboards, but had Data-grade Hor- and Vert-defl boards and data firmware.
| Mad Mr H wrote: | | There are VERY FEW DATA 1209s , these were a reduced bandwidth PJ and brought with them a lower cost, Barco gave this unit to Runco whilst they kept the Graphics version - Why give a competitor your best medel ??? |
It is true that the BD1209s is a very rare model, but there are more rare model like the BV1609s, with MEC tubes, is a rare model, and it is based on the same chassis.
| Mad Mr H wrote: |
Anyway the Data is a great unit but CANT run 1080p72. With todays HD players running 1080p24 the logical final 1080p72 seems to be a goal for many here, I run 72Hz its amazing. |
I tested the BD1209s back then at least until 10080p60, and that worked flawlessly. From other Barco Data models I know that they will run a little higher as specified. But I don't have a BD1209s here to confirm that, but that is easily tried out by the owner.
| Mad Mr H wrote: | | In fact this week I had a visitor who wants to go 144Hz, that brings with it an issue of reduced light output, the higher the refresh rate the lower the tube output. |
Cool. 3-D with a P43 tube?
| Mad Mr H wrote: | | I get the feeling this post is to try and confirm to someone that the purchase of a DATA based PJ was the right thing to do. |
I just replied in this thread, that's all. Besides, I don't sell anything.
| Mad Mr H wrote: |
IF there was NO DIFFERANCE why did Barco produce the two models? In the entire Barco range and STILL today with the digitals the Data is the low spec version of a GRAPHICS..............The ENTIRE Barco range is based on this............ |
Well, as you know Barco has produced an amazing range of CRT projectors over the years, sometimes with huge model spec overlapping. Barco will produce anything you ask them , or anything they can sell is my believe. At least the have done so in the past, leaving behind a huge array of models for us to chose from.
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perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2920
Location: Ithaca, NY
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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On a side note, I have a ferrari enzo. What's the upgrade path?
What I mean to say is that you suck. You have an awesome pj. Watch movies on it!!! 
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Mad Mr H
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 641
Location: London , England
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | The BD1209s I have seen, had three scan-coil connectors on the motherboard, and my BG1209s has only one feeding the scan-switch board, with no option of adding any connectors later on. So at least these two motherboards were different.
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Are you sure here ???
I mean can you look at both of these next to each other and be 100% sure now this second today ???
The reason I ask is that ALL the scan board I have seen have ONE cable to the mother board, BUT they all have THREE cables one to each tube.
What you describe seems to be a combination and sounds a little confiussed to me ???
I have NINE of these machines sitting here with me now.
Re 808LC units - I had parts from THREE of these units, In fact the Barcenstein project by PETE (ZPhoto) used a top plate from an 808LC unit that I supplied. I have sold most of the 120MHZ neck cards I have.
The 1609s again can be modified to the spec of a 1209s - I was in the middle of helping "Conny" aka Mr King (RIP) with this project when he passed away.
Bandwidth - the data and graphics share the same neck cards yes, the DATA is limited in its bandwidth, so altough the neck cards are both capable of the same bandwidth the rest of the machine is not, and so the data is considered limited in bandwidth.
maybe call it usable bandwidth.
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zGman
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:13 pm Post subject: Bandwidth |
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Hi,
I think perhaps one needs to make a distinction between scanrates
and video bandwith. Video bandwidth is a property of the video chain.
It exists at whatever frequency the projector is running, and is the same
at any scanrate. From what I have seen of this 2002 model 1101,
the video bandwidth is about what you woud expect for those boards.
It is not as good as the 2003 Cine9 however.
G
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