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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| Gary M. wrote: | | Alan is more of a videophile than Phil will ever be, I hate to be that blunt and call someone out like that, but Phil bashed him first and don't care to lay it on me thick |
I didn't bash Alan. Alan is my favorite guy at AVS. But judging from his occasional posts in the CRT forum, it didn't seem like he is that knowledgeable. But I could be wrong...
How about I lay off of you Gary..until your next thinly veiled ad. 
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Gino wrote: | | Phil Smith wrote: | With all due respect to Alan, I don't think he's that knowledgeable about HT.
I'd like to see a well setup, non-biased, double blind test of HDMI vs HD-SDI. |
Alan said he noticed less EE and less posterisation/banding. You don't need to be an expert to be able to see these effects. |
Phil is correct here. The ONLY subjective "measurements" worth even evaluating are double blind tests. It has been proven over and over again, that anything short of that is completely unreliable. So, why is it that supposed videophiles and audiophiles cannot follow this most basic testing rule? I'm not sure if it is because they are lazy or don't want to demonstrate the fact that the differences in many things is undetectable.
But, for any testing, objective testing trumps double blind subjective testing any day. One could do that test with HDMI vs. HD-SDI. You could capture the same frame from both sources and do a simple pixel by pixel analysis of the differences between the two. EE and banding issues would easily show up in such an analysis.
Until people are willing to do double-blind tests, their posts mean nothing.
As an aside, Lumagen (who does not gain or lose if HD-SDI is better) has tested and retested and unless their opinion has changed recently, they see no benefit to HD-SDI other than HDCP.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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WTS
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1276
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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I have to agree, if Lumagen can't see any difference what makes anyone think they might. Of course that is assuming Lumagen used top notch test gear etc to test the differences. If using or offering SDI would have made their products better for the same or slight increase in price one would think they would have offered it on their units.
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Walter
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| WTS wrote: | | I have to agree, if Lumagen can't see any difference what makes anyone think they might. Of course that is assuming Lumagen used top notch test gear etc to test the differences. If using or offering SDI would have made their products better for the same or slight increase in price one would think they would have offered it on their units. |
What you say is true...however i was thinking of my above smart ass comment and it might be true, maybe the quality of Lumagens processing is so good they saw no need for an HD SDI solution for THEIR Vp's, Now the VP50 might not do as well with HDMI...Just a thought.
Athanasios
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Gino
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 1363
Location: Trinity Beach, AUSTRALIA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| WTS wrote: | | I have to agree, if Lumagen can't see any difference what makes anyone think they might. Of course that is assuming Lumagen used top notch test gear etc to test the differences. If using or offering SDI would have made their products better for the same or slight increase in price one would think they would have offered it on their units. |
Actually, Lumagen is working on the Radiance Pro which is to feature 2 HD-SDI inputs.. so make of that what you will. Not to mention Anchorbay has dual HD-SDI inputs as optional on their Pro line.
Analogway chose to use HD-SDI input/outputs on their products eg. Blendzilla, and TVOne also continues to use HD-SDI on their products.
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nomadII
Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Posts: 252
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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My guess would be that Lumagens "testing" at the time that statement was made was about as exhaustive as anyones here. Totally non existent!!
BTW, I like JRP, seems like a hell of a guy. I remember him long ago lamenting the future of CRT's w HDCP looming. If I had his power at Lumagen I would have damn sure known that I would not have been among the unlucky masses!!
Why would they have commited then or now?
Fun to argue about here but no real sales #'s come of it from the consumer end.
This is an attractive option to so small a % of the contingent here that to have the discussion is comical.
The fact that such a high % of the contributors here will claim sight unseen that "theoretically there should be no difference", also comical.
Less opinion & more fact can be found here:
http://www.extron.com/company/articl...&version=print
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WTS
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1276
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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If they are putting it on their pro gear I can see that because we all know how bad the HDMI connections are and of course the SDI connection is a BNC. Does that say they think SDI is better?
I suppose someone who has gotten answers from them in the past could pose that question to them and see what their response is.
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Walter
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Gary M.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | Gino wrote: | | Phil Smith wrote: | With all due respect to Alan, I don't think he's that knowledgeable about HT.
I'd like to see a well setup, non-biased, double blind test of HDMI vs HD-SDI. |
Alan said he noticed less EE and less posterisation/banding. You don't need to be an expert to be able to see these effects. |
Phil is correct here. The ONLY subjective "measurements" worth even evaluating are double blind tests. It has been proven over and over again, that anything short of that is completely unreliable. So, why is it that supposed videophiles and audiophiles cannot follow this most basic testing rule? I'm not sure if it is because they are lazy or don't want to demonstrate the fact that the differences in many things is undetectable.
But, for any testing, objective testing trumps double blind subjective testing any day. One could do that test with HDMI vs. HD-SDI. You could capture the same frame from both sources and do a simple pixel by pixel analysis of the differences between the two. EE and banding issues would easily show up in such an analysis.
Until people are willing to do double-blind tests, their posts mean nothing.
As an aside, Lumagen (who does not gain or lose if HD-SDI is better) has tested and retested and unless their opinion has changed recently, they see no benefit to HD-SDI other than HDCP. |
give me a friggin break Dave, Lumagen did testing and found HD-SDI not worth it?  that is a logical explanation for the invalidation of HD-SDI if I have ever heard one 
Mark is right on the money here, I would like to see a show of hands to who has actually seen HD-SDI? my opinion doesn't count though because I sell a few mods so who else is game for answering that?
what most of you guys don't know or would even want to admit if you did is that blu-ray players are adding processing to the HDMI outputs! I cannot reveal my source for this, but it is a fact that was gleaned from a Sony Blu-Ray hardware guy, again let me repeat, there is processing happening on HDMI outputs on BD players, IE contrast boosting, color boosting, sharpness enhancement etc.
a good real world example:
BD30 via 1080p/24 4:2:2 HDMI into VP50pro requires -4 on the color setting on the pro for correct color output, BD30 via 1080p/24 4:2:2 HD-SDI requires +1 on the pro for correct color output, but what gives here? they are theoretically identical 4:2:2 outputs? is the VP50pro that much off between it's inputs or is there a difference in the HDMI and HD-SDI outputs from the BD30? you decice? as a long time beta tester for the pro I know the answer but I will just keep it too myself 
I talk to alot of people into this stuff (high-end guys and videophile freaks) and Lumagen made a 100% verifiable horrid decision to not include HD-SDI on the initial Radiance, I mean just bad
additionally I want to add that DVDO's and Lumagen's Pro scalers are not pro in the sense that they were made specifically for professional users, sure some will use them, but they are just the highest end offerings from both companies
-Gary
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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Here's a post I found on DVXuser.com, which is a filmmaker's forum. It's in regard to a question about the differences between Firewire, HDMI, SDI, and HD-SDI:
| Quote: | Firewire, HDMI, SDI, and HD-SDI are all digital data transport protocols.
HDMI and HD-SDI are much fatter pipes than firewire and can handle a lot more bandwidth, over longer distances.
Firewire has become linked with compressed digital video (DV/HDV/DVCPRO-HD). Firewire is not those formats, it's a data transfer system -- which is why it can be used for hard disks. But it's kind of become inseparable from the formats it transmits.
Firewire always transmits compressed data, because the pipe isn't fat enough to handle uncompressed data streams. HDMI and HD-SDI transmit uncompressed high-definition data streams.
HDMI is the "consumer" format, and includes the ability to have HDCP copy protection. HDMI is found on televisions and inexpensive camcorders. HD-SDI is used on professional broadcast equipment. Both transmit uncompressed high-def digital signals, so in that sense one could argue that there's not really a quality advantage for one over the other. But there is definite market segmentation between them. |
It dawned on me that one advantage of HD-SDI is cabling. When doing installs in professional environments that involve many, many of pieces of gear, cables that can be made on location to any length are a BIG advantage over factory built HDMI cables. HDMI cables would not be practical in that application. That you can run HD-SDI for very long runs without repeaters is also a big plus for commercial installs. Also, RG6 is going to be a LOT more durable than a multi wire cable like HDMI. RG6 is much more suited to endure the rigors of a commercial environment.
So there ARE advantages to HD-SDI, and very good reasons for commercial gear to have HD-SDI. It's just that NONE of the reasons involve the quality of the signal. PQ is NOT the reason commercial gear uses HD-SDI.
So if you want to be able to make custom length cables and make a nice, clean install (a good thing) or need to make a REALLY long run, go with HD-SDI. If only your concern is top notch PQ - and don't want to spend anymore than necessary to get it - go with HDMI.
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | As an aside, Lumagen (who does not gain or lose if HD-SDI is better) has tested and retested and unless their opinion has changed recently, they see no benefit to HD-SDI other than HDCP. |
| WTS wrote: | | I have to agree, if Lumagen can't see any difference what makes anyone think they might. Of course that is assuming Lumagen used top notch test gear etc to test the differences. |
| nomadII wrote: | | My guess would be that Lumagens "testing" at the time that statement was made was about as exhaustive as anyones here. Totally non existent!! |
| Gary M. wrote: | give me a friggin break Dave, Lumagen did testing and found HD-SDI not worth it? that is a logical explanation for the invalidation of HD-SDI if I have ever heard one
Mark is right on the money here, I would like to see a show of hands to who has actually seen HD-SDI? my opinion doesn't count though because I sell a few mods so who else is game for answering that? |
Hand up! I haven't seen it. So as as a person that hasn't seen it, I'm supposed to believe Mark, Gino and you over LUMAGEN!?! Give ME a friggin' break!
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| WTS wrote: | | If they are putting it on their pro gear I can see that because we all know how bad the HDMI connections are and of course the SDI connection is a BNC. Does that say they think SDI is better? |
Oops! I posted about this without seeing your post.
Does that not make sense? It does to me.
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Gary M.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil Smith wrote: | | If only your concern is top notch PQ - and don't want to spend anymore than necessary to get it - go with HDMI. |
again you are wrong, have you seen HD-SDI?, if not how can you make blanket statements like that, they are without basis and are 100% useless Phil
what is not spending anymore than necessary mean?
-Gary
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Gary M.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil Smith wrote: | It's just that NONE of the reasons involve the quality of the signal. PQ is NOT the reason commercial gear uses HD-SDI.
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how do you know that? how does this mean HD-SDI doesn't have better PQ? please explain
-Gary
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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I choose to let Lumagen be my eyes. I have no reason - other than what a couple of forum members such as yourself claim - to doubt what they say. The logical thing for me to do is to believe their expert opinion.
No, the burden of proof is on you Gary. I responded to what you claim. YOU explain. Give a valid technical reason why HS-SDI is better.
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nomadII
Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Posts: 252
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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At its implementation well in excess of a decade ago they of course did not have HDMI, DVI or Firewire to even give a 2nd thought to.
What they needed & choose to design & implement was a high quality signal with robust characteristics.
Hardly the same goal as those that brought us HDCP via HDMI & DVI.
Did you read anything in the link I left? Somers is neither reviewing or comparing the 2, just stating the facts.
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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Your link is broke Mark.
Did you not read what I quoted? Both HDMI and HD-SDI are high bandwidth digital data transport protocols. What's the purported difference?
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I choose to let Lumagen be my eyes |
This is a comment doesn't make sense !!! Would you let someone else (based on vision alone) choose your car, cloths, house, art, or even your Wife for you ? NO !!! You and You Alone know what your looking at and decide based on what your Eyes see, not what someone else's eyes decide looks good or not !!! This whole thing is idiotic, All That GM is trying to convey is what he saw, its his experiance he is trying to convey to others and urging them to not believe what he says but to go and see it for yourself before you dismiss it as snake oil or what ever you want to call it. Many here seem to not respect what some say unless the few "Gods" of the CRT world say its so. I suggest all comments should be made after a comarison has been seen by that person with their own eyes. its that simple. I have not seen it but i do not dismiss it either, only after I see it with my OWN EYES then will is state my opinion based on actual EXPERIENCE !!!!!!!
I feel better now, one of my employees pissed me off before i read this post.( he got an ear full too) 
Athanasios
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Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil Smith wrote: | | It dawned on me that one advantage of HD-SDI is cabling. ... RG6 is much more suited to endure the rigors of a commercial environment. |
And, in particular, the BNC connector used on HD-SDI is basically bombproof and easy to fix if damaged, whereas the HDMI connector is a bad joke. Fragile and non-repairable.
| Quote: | | So there ARE advantages to HD-SDI, and very good reasons for commercial gear to have HD-SDI. It's just that NONE of the reasons involve the quality of the signal. PQ is NOT the reason commercial gear uses HD-SDI. |
I think it'd be safe to say that the **PQ as affected by signal transmission** is not the reason. I suspect Gary would agree that HDMI is just as good at HD-SDI for the "bits going into the wire == bits coming out of the wire" job. If I understand Gary's recent comments, he's saying that HD-SDI gives you unmolested bits from the source materials, BD or whatever, whereas players with HDMI outputs apparently modify the signal somewhere between the disk and the HDMI port.
The question is whether that apparent modification affects the PQ adversely, BEFORE it gets to the HDMI port. Gary's saying it does. Correct, Gary?
Then there's the obvious advantage of dumping HDCP, but that's a different issue.
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | | Quote: | | I choose to let Lumagen be my eyes |
This is a comment doesn't make sense !!! Would you let someone else (based on vision alone) choose your car, cloths, house, art, or even your Wife for you ? NO !!! You and You Alone know what your looking at and decide based on what your Eyes see, not what someone else's eyes decide looks good or not !!! This whole thing is idiotic, All That GM is trying to convey is what he saw, its his experiance he is trying to convey to others and urging them to not believe what he says but to go and see it for yourself before you dismiss it as snake oil or what ever you want to call it. Many here seem to not respect what some say unless the few "Gods" of the CRT world say its so. I suggest all comments should be made after a comarison has been seen by that person with their own eyes. its that simple. I have not seen it but i do not dismiss it either, only after I see it with my OWN EYES then will is state my opinion based on actual EXPERIENCE !!!!!!!
I feel better now, one of my employees pissed me off before i read this post.( he got an ear full too)
Athanasios |
Well having not seen HD-SDI I have to make a decision on who to believe. You can take Gary's opinion over Lumagen's. I choose to do the opposite.
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