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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:54 am Post subject: |
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Well...that's a good point - maybe. Anyone know more about this?
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Gary M.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:24 am Post subject: |
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| MikeEby wrote: | | emdawgz1 wrote: | | MikeEby wrote: | Most of us will succumb to digital within the next 5 years if not simply because our tube cost will not make it practical keeping them.
Mike |
HERETIC!!!!
Burn the Heretic!!!!  |
LOL...I moved my projector closer to the screen to maximize my raster a few months ago and it uncovered a slight amount of wear on the green. It's only noticeable on all white image but it still bugs me. I think its nearly impossible to find XG tubes with OEM hard LC hardware installed & after hearing all the horror stories about glycol leaks Im not sure that I am up for those headaches of a non-oem tube. I need to call VDC to find out what one will set me back even if I don't replace it right now.
Mike |
Mike, you can get someone here to help with the tube swap, I was in that same position a few years ago, I happened upon a brand new sealed NEC tube with green LC hardware installed and ready to go, 600$  that was just way too easy 
-Gary
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:30 am Post subject: |
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Ok Gary M., you're making me learn more about this than I really want to know. As far as HDCP is concerned, it's completely separate from the video and audio stream. It doesn't even run thru the same wires. That it could somehow inadvertantly effect the PQ seems impossible. From http://www.audioquest.com/pdfs/hdmi_paper.pdf :
Fig. 1 HDMI Cable: The Components Inside
4 TMDS (Transition Minimized Differential Signaling) signals over 4 twisted pair
wires, including 3 digital video signals (RGB or YCrCb) and 1 clock signal; the
digital audio signals are also multiplexed into the digital video signals. The Dual-
Link HDMI has 3 more twisted pair wires for digital video signals to achieve a
higher data rate.
DDC (Display Data Channel) data and clock lines carry the two-way
communication signals; the HDCP (High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection)
signal also floats here.
CEC (Consumer Electronics Control) data line distributes remote control signals
for one-touch system controls.
HPD (Hot Plug Detection) allows the source to detect a display plugged in real
time.
+5 V power line supports remote circuits for communication even when the
power is not turned on.
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Gary M.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:43 am Post subject: |
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| Phil Smith wrote: | Ok Gary M., you're making me learn more about this than I really want to know. As far as HDCP is concerned, it's completely separate from the video and audio stream. It doesn't even run thru the same wires. That it could somehow inadvertantly effect the PQ seems impossible. From http://www.audioquest.com/pdfs/hdmi_paper.pdf :
Fig. 1 HDMI Cable: The Components Inside
4 TMDS (Transition Minimized Differential Signaling) signals over 4 twisted pair
wires, including 3 digital video signals (RGB or YCrCb) and 1 clock signal; the
digital audio signals are also multiplexed into the digital video signals. The Dual-
Link HDMI has 3 more twisted pair wires for digital video signals to achieve a
higher data rate.
DDC (Display Data Channel) data and clock lines carry the two-way
communication signals; the HDCP (High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection)
signal also floats here.
CEC (Consumer Electronics Control) data line distributes remote control signals
for one-touch system controls.
HPD (Hot Plug Detection) allows the source to detect a display plugged in real
time.
+5 V power line supports remote circuits for communication even when the
power is not turned on. |
Phil, video, audio, HDCP, etc. are inserted into the HDMI transmitter chip inside the player, this is output as a HDMI signal via different pins on the HDMI plug? where is the issue?
the separate lines are coming out of the transmitter chip, everything is there inside the HDMI chip, that is the point of HD-SDI eliminating chips/processes
with your diagram though there is something that I didn't even realize, the digital audio signals are multiplexed with the digital video signals
-Gary
Last edited by Gary M. on Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:44 am Post subject: |
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| Phil Smith wrote: | Ok Gary M., you're making me learn more about this than I really want to know. As far as HDCP is concerned, it's completely separate from the video and audio stream. It doesn't even run thru the same wires. That it could somehow inadvertantly effect the PQ seems impossible. From http://www.audioquest.com/pdfs/hdmi_paper.pdf :
Fig. 1 HDMI Cable: The Components Inside
4 TMDS (Transition Minimized Differential Signaling) signals over 4 twisted pair
wires, including 3 digital video signals (RGB or YCrCb) and 1 clock signal; the
digital audio signals are also multiplexed into the digital video signals. The Dual-
Link HDMI has 3 more twisted pair wires for digital video signals to achieve a
higher data rate.
DDC (Display Data Channel) data and clock lines carry the two-way
communication signals; the HDCP (High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection)
signal also floats here.
CEC (Consumer Electronics Control) data line distributes remote control signals
for one-touch system controls.
HPD (Hot Plug Detection) allows the source to detect a display plugged in real
time.
+5 V power line supports remote circuits for communication even when the
power is not turned on. |
Phil,
I don't think Gary is saying HDCP effects PQ, its just a PITA. The processing done in the player could affect PQ, unless you tweak the hell out your projector like Gary and I have done I don't know if you would see a difference, I feel you really must be running a progressive scan resolution like 800p (2:40 AR) or 1080p 16:9 to see any difference at all, I would not be surprised if we could even get Gary to admit that.
Mike
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Doing HD since the last century!
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Gary M.
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| MikeEby wrote: | | Phil Smith wrote: | Ok Gary M., you're making me learn more about this than I really want to know. As far as HDCP is concerned, it's completely separate from the video and audio stream. It doesn't even run thru the same wires. That it could somehow inadvertantly effect the PQ seems impossible. From http://www.audioquest.com/pdfs/hdmi_paper.pdf :
Fig. 1 HDMI Cable: The Components Inside
4 TMDS (Transition Minimized Differential Signaling) signals over 4 twisted pair
wires, including 3 digital video signals (RGB or YCrCb) and 1 clock signal; the
digital audio signals are also multiplexed into the digital video signals. The Dual-
Link HDMI has 3 more twisted pair wires for digital video signals to achieve a
higher data rate.
DDC (Display Data Channel) data and clock lines carry the two-way
communication signals; the HDCP (High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection)
signal also floats here.
CEC (Consumer Electronics Control) data line distributes remote control signals
for one-touch system controls.
HPD (Hot Plug Detection) allows the source to detect a display plugged in real
time.
+5 V power line supports remote circuits for communication even when the
power is not turned on. |
Phil,
I don't think Gary is saying HDCP effects PQ, its just a PITA. The processing done in the player could affect PQ, unless you tweak the hell out your projector like Gary and I have done I don't know if you would see a difference, I feel you really must be running a progressive scan resolution like 800p (2:40 AR) or 1080p 16:9 to see any difference at all, I would not be surprised if we could even get Gary to admit that.
Mike |
HDCP is just another "if", it is being inserted into the signal along with everything else at the HDMI transmitter, does it truly bypass the video lines like Phil is attempting to say? I don't know, what I do know is that it is more processing at a chip that can be bypassed all together
correct, the difference between HD-SDI and HDMI is subtle, but it is there, the biggest difference is gradiations in the image, colorwise mostly, as well as a cleaner image with less ringing and higher frequency detail coming thru a little better
I am a crazy videophile that gets excited bout a 2% increase, this is not everyone, nor am I putting a percentage on the HD-SDI PQ increase because that is impossible to do, it is enough to get me excited though and obviously others that are like me, HD-SDI would be most important in systems like Mark's, Gino's, Boiler's, Cliffy's, etc. or anyone who demands "the best" without question of $$, the fact that I am even attempting to argue HDMI against HD-SDI is proof that I have too much time, the proof is around from guys on this very forum that don't sell a few modified players here and there
-Gary
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Gino
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 1363
Location: Trinity Beach, AUSTRALIA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 2:06 am Post subject: |
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Phil, even though you argue that both HDMI and HD-SDI can carry uncompressed digital signals albeit HD-SDI is more robust over long distances blah blah, the fact that a HD-SDI mod can bypass problems inherent in the players means that you are going to get a pure signal. Sure, perhaps you could use HDMI instead of HD-SDI and bypass these problem decoders etc... not sure how the mod is done, but so what? What's coming out of a HD-SDI modded player is cleaner than what's coming out of a stock HDMI player.
So, choosing to use HD-SDI instead of HDMI for the mod, then allows you other conveniences, such as more flexibility with cable lengths, a better connector, less chance of degradation over distances, a cheaper cable, no hdcp or handshaking headaches or delays, freeing of a HDMI port
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 2:34 am Post subject: |
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It would be very interesting if there was some way to sample the digital output coming out of HDMI and HD-SDI -- and compare it, bit by bit, to the content on the disk itself. If HD-SDI matches the disk (or at least is closer), that would 100% establish that the HD-SDI signal is truer to the source than HDMI. If the two are just *different*, without any reference to the source, you're likely to have "audiophile-type" arguments about which one is "better."
Figure out some way to compare it to the source, and that'll settle it once and for all.
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Gino
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 1363
Location: Trinity Beach, AUSTRALIA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:01 am Post subject: |
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When Casper was originally doing HD-SDI mods, one of the first BD players had a poor HDMI broadcom decoder implementation, his HD-SDI mods yielded significant improvements to the signal as he claimed it bypassed this poor chip and gave the pure unadulterated signal straight from the disc. Obviously BD players are much better now so improvements aren't as significant if there are any, and if these differences are even noticeable in real world viewing is what's up for debate now.
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Gary M.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:15 am Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | It would be very interesting if there was some way to sample the digital output coming out of HDMI and HD-SDI -- and compare it, bit by bit, to the content on the disk itself. If HD-SDI matches the disk (or at least is closer), that would 100% establish that the HD-SDI signal is truer to the source than HDMI. If the two are just *different*, without any reference to the source, you're likely to have "audiophile-type" arguments about which one is "better."
Figure out some way to compare it to the source, and that'll settle it once and for all. |
Gary, they are not just different I can assure you of that, the HD-SDI mod takes the digital video right from the decoder chip, this same digital info is sent via the same pipe(that the HD-SDI mods taps into) to the video processing chips and ultimately the HDMI transmitter
we are simply comparing the 100% exact same video signal viewed before all the player processing (HD-SDI) vs after the player processing/HDMI transmitting (HDMI)
what you get from the disc is only viewable after the decoder has decoded it, so all you can do is compare decoders, which all have flaws and pluses and minuses, chroma bug, better detail etc., you can't compare whats on the disc to what comes out of each output, whats on the disc is useless data without the decoder chip, so our only source is the decoded data sent via the pipe between the decoder chip and the video processing/HDMI transmitter (the HD-SDI taps in between here)
-Gary
Last edited by Gary M. on Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:19 am Post subject: |
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If I rip the disk, creating a VOB or MP4 file, isn't that an exact copy of what's on the disk? Isn't that the "perfect" representation of the source as presented on the disk? If the HD-SDI output bits match that, then I'd say it's better. I'm sure the HDMI output *doesn't* match it because of the kinds of things players tend to do to the signal -- brightness settings, etc in addition to things like chroma handling.
Or am I totally misunderstanding what comes out of HD-SDI and HDMI?
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Gary M.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:24 am Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | If I rip the disk, creating a VOB or MP4 file, isn't that an exact copy of what's on the disk? Isn't that the "perfect" representation of the source as presented on the disk? If the HD-SDI output bits match that, then I'd say it's better. I'm sure the HDMI output *doesn't* match it because of the kinds of things players tend to do to the signal -- brightness settings, etc in addition to things like chroma handling.
Or am I totally misunderstanding what comes out of HD-SDI and HDMI? |
yes Gary, that is misunderstanding whats on the disc and/or what comes out of the outputs
whats on the disc is coded data, files, useless stuff if there wasn't a video decoder chip to say this is video, audio etc., what the video decoder chip puts out is what we are critiquing when we say this player looks better than that one(of course HDMI processing is involved which taints that, which is the whole point of HD-SDI), that is the #1 thing we are looking at in players
HD-SDI is a different subject from that, it is simply getting the decoded signal coming right off of the video decoder chip mentioned above, so HD-SDI is the best representation that we get of the decoded video data and is the only true way to really compare video decoder chips, that decoded data passes from the video decoder chip to video processors and HDMI transmitters inside the player for output, it is passed to D/A for component output via a separate path
what Gino says is a good example of this, the Samsung BD player first released used the same Broadcom decoder chip as the LG player, but it looked like ass because of the HDMI processing crap(the LG doesn't look like sh*t), HD-SDI showed what the decoder could really do in the Samsung 1000(because it BYPASSED the HDMI processing crap)
the best video decoder in blu-ray players today IMHO is the Sigma SMP8634 RevC, it is the sharpest out there and is 100% free of chroma bugs, plus it allows 480i SD-SDI mode (via the HD-SDI output) for standard DVD playback to scaler 
Pioneer Elites, most of Sony's players and new Samsung's
-Gary
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:34 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | ....the Samsung BD player first released used the same Broadcom decoder chip as the LG player, but it looked like ass because of the HDMI processing crap..... |
Ahhh So this is why the LG BH100 looked so much better than the sammy even though they used the same decoder chip!!!! That in and of itself justifies the benifits of HD-SDI. Even Dave(Person99) Loves the way the BH 100 looks compared to all the players he has seen. Come on Gary Make HD SDI happen to the LG's Get on JVB's case !!
Athanasios
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:50 am Post subject: |
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I am actually surprise they don't pot the around the decoder chip to prevent this type of hacking. Back in the days of the Videocipher with C-band satellite manufacturers would put epoxy around the chip covering the pins to prevent hacking. It could be a matter of time before this happens with these players.
Gary, in most cases what is on the disk is 24fps...right? What do you output out of the player to the VP50?
Mike
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Gary M.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:53 am Post subject: |
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exactly Athan, that is one good example of HD-SDI in action and what it can bring
the Samsung had processing going on, nowhere in the menus was anything that looked like processing, but behind the scenes the first BD player released had NR turned on because of the idea of grain haters coming out screaming
manufacturers aren't releasing players for us CRT videophiles, they are for joe sixpacks in best buy, processing makes them look better to those people, HD-SDI gives us what we want IMHO, simple as that
like I said, the Sony Blu-Ray person said that HDMI processing was in the works for all BD players, hopefully that won't be the case forever, but how is one to know, try calling up Panasonic or Pioneer and asking them 
-Gary
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Gary M.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:57 am Post subject: |
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| MikeEby wrote: | I am actually surprise they don't pot the around the decoder chip to prevent this type of hacking. Back in the days of the Videocipher with C-band satellite manufacturers would put epoxy around the chip covering the pins to prevent hacking. It could be a matter of time before this happens with these players.
Gary, in most cases what is on the disk is 24fps...right? What do you output out of the player to the VP50?
Mike |
Mike, you can do 1080p/24 which is zero processing/converting to the decoded video, framerate or anything, you can also do 1080i or 720p via HD-SDI, the later would be stupid, 1080i is simply a framerate conversion and is very close to 1080p/24
1080p/24 is best solid pure choice, but in some players you lose menus and splash screens because they default to 1080p/60 when set to output direct 1080p/24 with BD movies(it switches from 1080p/60 to 1080p/24 when a movie starts up), so the HD-SDI output is gone with menus or splash because it can't handle 1080p/60, those players can be set for 1080i for setup or you can flip over to HDMI for menus and splash and back to HD-SDI for movie viewing
I don't think that the manufacturers will or can ever do away with the gateway between the decoder chip and video processors/HDMI transmitters, potting could be done shush Mike!  I don't think it will ever happen though as HD-SDI is not even bypassing HDCP
we modders waited over 12 years for DVD player makers to do this and it never happened, there are a few all in one chip players that have decoder and processor all in one chip so no data path to hit, that can stop mods really quick:thumbsdown:
-Gary
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:20 am Post subject: |
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| Gary M. wrote: | | with your diagram though there is something that I didn't even realize, the digital audio signals are multiplexed with the digital video signals |
Hmm...well that does sound bad! You know what sounds even worse? Cramming ALL the data one ONE wire, like HD-SDI does.
Man, the more I think about HD-SDI, the worse it sounds!
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Gary M.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:24 am Post subject: |
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whatever Phil
I just stated that I didn't know that HDMI info, nothing more was said
smart ass comments help this discussion about as much as a fart in the wind 
-Gary
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | If I rip the disk, creating a VOB or MP4 file, isn't that an exact copy of what's on the disk? Isn't that the "perfect" representation of the source as presented on the disk? If the HD-SDI output bits match that, then I'd say it's better. I'm sure the HDMI output *doesn't* match it because of the kinds of things players tend to do to the signal -- brightness settings, etc in addition to things like chroma handling.
Or am I totally misunderstanding what comes out of HD-SDI and HDMI? |
Is it possible that if you set all the player's setting to neutral that it does NOTHING to the signal? Is it also possible that HDMI is designed with tweaking in mind? That even when you DO tweak it with the players controls, that it may perform those adjustments well? Help dial in the picture for your display?
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