CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

[CRT_Ben]

Hi all,

In my audio setup I run all separate adcom amps and a Sony SDP-EP9ES Pre/pro. The Sony is a very nice unit but doesn't even support DTS, and I think it's time to step up soon. I've done a bit of research but all I'm finding in the ways of HDMI, lossless decoding pre/pros are wildly (to me) expensive units. Seeing as one can get a respectable 7.1 AVR that does lossless decoding ( http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0015S8PGW?tag=curtpalmecrtp-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B0015S8PGW&creative=373489&camp=211189 ) For $360, why do are all the pre/pro units so expensive?? Can anyone recommend reasonable (around $500 max) pre-pros that can support lossless decoding?

Thanks!
Ben

[Nashou66]

With HDMI in the equation you wont find a inexpensive one. I use the Adcom 830 pre/pro using the 5.1 analog ins for my lossless audio from my LG BH100. that adcom has 6.1 capabilities, close enough to 7.1 for me. Adcom amps also are used the GFA5503 up fron for the three fronts and two 80 watt stereo adcoms for the rears. to me it sounds nice. If you have analog outs from your HD disc content use those and maybe set a 5.1 switcher if you have more than one unit outputting 5.1.


Adcom GTP880


Athanasios

[emdawgz1]

Rotel RSP 1068 http://www.rotel.com/NA/products/ProductDetails.htm?Id=21

On e-bay you might get close to your number


Category: SURROUND SOUND PROCESSORS
Model: RSP-1068
Title: 7.1 Surround Preamplifier / Processor


Taking a page from Rotel’s flagship, the RSP-1098, the RSP-1068 Surround Sound Processor/Preamplifier combines flexibility, superior performance, and easy operation. Flexibility begins with enough inputs and outputs to easily accommodate the most demanding system configurations. You can connect up to eight sources, five of them video-based, plus a CD player, external tuner, and an analog tape recorder. In addition, there are five assignable digital audio inputs, 3 coaxial and 2 optical. There’s also a direct analog stereo mode that bypasses all digital processing. To increase your viewing pleasure, the RSP-1068 includes inputs and switching/transcoding for five composite, five S-, and three component video sources. Custom ID capability lets users program the front panel display so it precisely confirms all of your A/V input selections. Advanced microprocessors from Crystal Semiconductor handle Dolby Digital (complete with dynamic range adjustments), Dolby Digital EX, DTS, and Dolby Pro Logic II decoding. The RSP-1068 also automatically detects and decodes DTS ES, DTS ES Discrete and Matrix, DTS 24/96, HDCD, and MP3-encoded audio. There’s also DTS Neo:6 mode for cinema sound and music. Six other DSP modes (Music 1-4, 5 CH Stereo, and 7 CH Stereo) complement traditional two-channel stereo operation to make the RSP-1068 more than suitable for any source. An adjustable subwoofer crossover and “on the fly” center, surround and subwoofer level adjustments mean you can adjust the RSP-1068’s response to perfectly match your preferences. Do you want large front speakers for stereo, but small front speakers for Dolby encoded movies? The RSP-1068 can do that and more. Upgradeable software means you won’t be left behind by new advances either. The RSP-1068 integrates into advanced custom-designed systems with an RS-232 port, 12-volt “trigger” outputs, discrete on/off remote control command codes, multi-source/multi-zone operation with composite video, group delay settings, and a fully programmable universal remote control. Last – but certainly not least – is Rotel’s most salient point: Sound quality. Exacting care in parts selection, circuit design, and particular attention to the power supply complete with Rotel-designed and built toroidal transformers result in clearly audible superiority.

[ecrabb]

Ben, you're not going to find a prepro with HDMI 1.3 and advanced audio for under a grand. Not new, anyway. Also, you're looking at it a little backwards... The guts of many prepros - say, at $1500 - are similar to the guts you get in a $1500 AVR, but even better. You basically trade the amplifiers for some better guts and features.

The reason there are no $500 prepros is because there's just no market for them. If you're the type of person who's going to go to the trouble of buying 2-3 expensive separate amplifiers, you can also afford a $1000 prepro. There are just too few folks like us that piece stuff together on the cheap to matter as a market. So, prepros are targeted at the higher end. Anything "separates" has always been more expensive.

You'll either have to A) pony up and spend closer to a grand, B) skip the advanced audio and get an older audiophile-grade prepro at a much reduced cost compared to new, or C) skip the prepro altogether and go to a new AVR with advanced audio and pre-outs. Personally, unless your room, amps and speakers are also "audiophile grade", I'd just go for option C if you don't want to spend the money to get a new prepro.

Here's about as cheap as you're going to get in a new prepro, and this is an older model, not yet refreshed to HDMI 1.3. It'll switch HDMI video, but doesn't decode advanced audio codecs:



Denon DN-A7100
http://www.d-mpro.com/users/folder.asp?FolderID=4214&CatID=17&SubCatID=165

It's available for around $800-900 from online resellers.

The prepro I'd love to have is the Onkyo PR-SC885P:




http://www.onkyopro.com/model.cfm?m=PR-SC885P&class=Preamplifier&p=i

It's an awesome piece of kit, but it goes for $1400-1500 street.

Outlaw is also rumored to have an HDMI-based prepro on the way, but it'll likely be around a grand, and will be considered pretty "budget" as far as prepros go.

SC

[CRT_Ben]

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. I'm currently using the X360 HD-DVD drive, so no analog outs for me. I do have an Elite, so HDMI audio is a possibility. So I guess I have a few options:

1) Spend $520 on an Onkyo TX-SR705 - get HDMI in, lossless decoding, 7.1 preouts, but perhaps less quality than I'd like.
2) Spend ~$320 on ebay for an LG BH100 - get 5.1 analog outs, limited HD-DVD playback, and no path to 7.1.
3) Spend ~$250 on an HD-A35 - get 5.1 analog outs, no path to 7.1, and investing in another dead format player.

I do realize that the guts of a dedicated pre/pro are better than a similarly priced AVR - which is why it frustrates me to pay $500+ for a mediocre pre/pro along with a mediocre (if that) 8 channel amp. I'd love to have the pre/pro guts of a 1k AVR for $500, but you're right SC, it probably isn't going to happen. For now I think I'll stand pat, because I can't stomach half a grand for substandard sound and a bunch of wasted features - that's about what I've spent on my entire setup so far - 2 GFA 545's, 2 GFA 535's, and my pre-pro.

Note that I'm certainly not opposed to buying used - just there aren't any of these new(er) pre-pros on the used market, I guess. I was hoping that I was overlooking some budget audiophile-grade name like Anthem or the like.

Thanks,
Ben

[Nashou66]

I think if you get the LG BH100 you'll be amazingly suprised not only of its audio abilities but it is a very very good visual player with Bluray and HD DVD. For me I preffer my SDI Dennon 1600 for SD DVD playback. I also realized that the Adcom 830 is 7.1 outs, it has a special DSp that takes 5.1 and uses its own algorithm to get 7.1 from the 5.1 ins. the 880 i linked to is a nicer pre/pro than the 830 I have.

Athanasios

[CRT_Ben]

[ecrabb]

Ben, you really should consider trying that SR705 with your amps. If you're suspicious, just a pay a few more bucks and get it from a local shop where you can return it. The real weak spot in affordably-priced AVR's is the amplifiers, and you have that covered using pre-outs and your Adcoms. I think you might be pleasantly surprised and even impressed with the sound.

I'm using an AVR (albeit a little higher end Marantz - mid-fi, I'd say), and the sound is nothing short of excellent. Maybe not "audiophile", but very, very good. I have a pretty discerning ear, grew up with separates, and I know what good sound is... and I've got good sound.

I'd be surprised in fact, if you weren't very happy with the sound - even compared to the old ES prepro.

SC

[kal]

Yep. I'm with SC. Where the receivers sound the most different is on the analog output/amp side. On the digital side they're fairly similar. So just buy the lower priced Onkyo receiver and use the analog line outs.

The higher end pre/pro's have extra features of course like better roomEQ and isolated power supplies, and better scalers, but it's all about the laws of diminishing returns.

Kal

[kal]

Yep. I'm with SC. Where the receivers sound the most different is on the analog output/amp side. On the digital side they're fairly similar. So just buy the lower priced Onkyo receiver and use the analog line outs.

The higher end pre/pro's have extra features of course like better roomEQ and isolated power supplies, and better scalers, but it's all about the laws of diminishing returns.

Kal

[CRT_Ben]

Well, I think you've encouraged me to give it a shot - maybe not immediately, but I'll definitely think about it. Your experience is reassuring, SC - and resale value would probably be decent if I ever wanted to upgrade.

I agree that the amps are the weak point of ANY AVR I've seen - take the $1500 Onkyo 905, for example - sure, it might have a separate power supply for the supposedly 1,120 watt (8*140) audio portion - but that doesn't cut it in my book. One of the reasons I like my old Adcoms so much is that they have one power supply per channel - so right now I have one power supply per speaker, and when I start bi-amping with one amp per speaker, I'll have darn close to one power supply PER DRIVER Time to upgrade the HT power circuit...

[greg_mitch]

I might be wrong....but why look for a receiver to decode the new lossless codecs, when all you REALLY need a receiver that can accept 7.1 LPCM over HDMI. Let the players do the decoding as some of them can't even bitstream anyway.

I currently am in the market to replace my H/K AVR325 with one of their newer models that decodes 7.1 LPCM over HDMI from my PS3 or the HDa3 like the H/K 247, 347, 254, 354 etc.

The one thing to watch out for with the cheaper line of receivers is that they don't have line outs, like the Onkyo 605.

[kal]

[kal]

[greg_mitch]

If money is no object, of course.

But with a tight budget you can buy a lot more if you don't need the new lossless codecs to be decoded. At least from what I am looking at.

[CRT_Ben]

Haha...thanks for getting my hopes up, Kal! Quickly dashed by an ebay auction for the D2 running at 10x my budget

Anyways, I'm all ears about saving a good amount - say at least $150 - for dropping the bitstream decoding requirement, as long as that won't limit me in the future. Do either of you think that source devices will ever stop doing LPCM?

I looked and it seems you can get a new 247 on amazon for about $325. That would make this a much sooner purchase than $500+, that's for sure.

[CRT_Ben]

Dammit Microsoft...remind me why I give you my money? The Elite only outputs 2 channel LPCM and cannot bitstream.

!@$%@#%$#)(&

[greg_mitch]

I was gonna say that earlier, but thought you would at least have a future player that would either do 7.1 LPCM over HDMI or bitstream the new HD codecs over HDMI, because you were asking for it!

Pick up a 247 for less than that on ebay from harmanaudio (harman refurb seller on ebay). Looking at the recently completed auctions you should be able to snag one for $230 shipped! With a 1-year warranty.

You definitely should have jumped on the $100 off the PS3 deal that all the retailers were playing a few weeks ago.

Or you could pick up an HDa2 or HDa3 for under $100 to get here with HD DVD.

Lots of options for a lot less money than you were originally thinking.

You could have lossless sound in your setup for under $400 and that includes picking up a new player.

[greg_mitch]

From A* site

[greg_mitch]

[greg_mitch]

That goes a little against what I said about the players. I thought the HD DVD players could send out 7.1 lpcm...turns out maybe it is just 5.1 lPCM??

[CRT_Ben]

Hey Greg, thanks for the good info! I'll check out that ebay seller, maybe I could pick up a 254 if they're selling for less than Amazon. I did know about the A2/A3 only outputting 5.1LPCM - I just don't get it with these half-baked applications. Or worse with my elite, who the hell cares about 2 channel PCM? You might as well not output anything at all if it's only going to be 2 measly channels. About the elite, I just sort of assumed that it could bitstream, or at least send LPCM - I wasn't thinking about the fact that it was only HDMI 1.2. I think at this point if I were to pay money for a player, I'd get the LG BH100 so I got a blu player in the process. Do you know if it does 7.1LPCM?