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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:06 am Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: |
Or the new Tv-One units!!!!!! 
Athanasios |
We don't count vaporware! Well yet at least.
Mike
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Gino
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 1363
Location: Trinity Beach, AUSTRALIA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| VideoGrabber wrote: | | I've had 3 or 4 "scalers" over the years (still have my Lumagen for SD upconverts), but what bothers me about the current crop is what they can't do... in spite of their cost. E.g., 1920x1080p @72 Hz. Or for those wanting to do AAS to maximize PQ, they can't output interlaced at anything other than 1080 lines. And so forth. An HTPC solution has none of those limitations (but obviously, some of it's own). |
???
VP50 and Pro can both output 1080p72 so long as you know how to adjust for a 165Mhz pixel clock
Can't output interlaced other than 1080 lines? That's news to me, why can't they?
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Gino
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 1363
Location: Trinity Beach, AUSTRALIA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | | Or the new Tv-One units!!!!!! |
You are right. The 7200 Andy has been using can do over 200Mhz pixel clocks over analog.
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nomadII
Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Posts: 252
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:56 am Post subject: |
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Deep breath & survey the landscape.
Is Phil Smiths G-70 capable of a image better now than when Sony stopped its production?
Did the good folks at Electrohome ever think that the 8500 could produce the image that MP is capable of coaxing out
of it?
When is the last time anyone here ever bought something from or directly contacted Barco?
You can choose to criticize or you can innovate, benefit or not benefit from those that attempt to further video improvements amongst the CRT landscape.
Those who help keep these machines viable have my respect & support. Foreign to me that anyone could think differently?
I was the first to send Moome a VIM years ago & I did not say word one to him (despite no contact) for over 10 months. I do not need a pat on the back but I am very glad to have done it because I feel as if I have been repaid in kind.
Just a few on my list would be Xymox (Chris Stevens), William Phelps, Mike Parker, Moome Liu, Curt Palme, Tim Martin, The irrascible Haflich (who can get anything new & cutting edge at cost but still screws with this) , Terry Ferentinos, Ken Whitcomb, Gino, William Kosmann & it goes on & on.
Gary, thru what I can only imagine was a large effort, has introduced the possiblilty of HD-SDI output from at least one video processor & a still unfinished list of HD sources.
I for one find that hard to criticize. YMMV
nomad
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:06 am Post subject: |
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I'm sorry a few here feel this thread sucks but 85 posts and 1,500 hits in only a couple of days means someone is interested.
Let's leave Gary's life out of the subject. It has nothing to do with the issue.
As source equipment evolves and fewer NEW video processors are bought, how long will manufacurers continue to produce them. After all, they do it to make a profit. Production lines cost money to maintain. You have to consider that at some point the market is saturated or demand for a (any) product drops off. That's when any good bean counter makes the decision to bail and move on. Even if it's a great product, if it doen't generate profit, it's gone.
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A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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rickycleung
Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| stefuel wrote: |
As source equipment evolves and fewer NEW video processors are bought, how long will manufacurers continue to produce them. After all, they do it to make a profit. Production lines cost money to maintain. You have to consider that at some point the market is saturated or demand for a (any) product drops off. That's when any good bean counter makes the decision to bail and move on. Even if it's a great product, if it doen't generate profit, it's gone. |
Totally agreed. When crt projectors gone, those high end video processors would gone too or fade out even faster than crt projector. If I do not own a good shape XG1350, I wont buy a crystalio I years ago to serve this beast. Would I upgrade the scaler? NO I wont spend that money. For the new comers to hometheater hobbies, they would consider a 1080P DLP/LCD, stewart screen and AV receiver + 7.1 speakers system. Its rare to hear that they will buy a high end video processor for their DLP/LCD.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Its rare to hear that they will buy a high end video processor for their DLP/LCD. |
And from what Kal said earlier, these type of projectors ironicly benefit from VP's the most, so that is not actually true.
There will always be those who want the best from a display and separate units will usually beat out all in one units, just like in audio, pre amp/separate amps perform much better than all in one receivers of the same caliber.
here is a ersponce quote for the same question asked over on AVS by Jim Peterson of Lumagen, I thin he sums it up well with his tv/audio analogy:
| JRP on AVS wrote: | I have been being told the video processor market is "going away soon" since I started Lumagen. I have come to believe this is like saying the amplifier market is going away because televisions do audio. Yes they do, but not as well as external processors. Displays do video, but not as well as our external processors. This will remain true.
This is a niche market. However, if anything, the market looks stronger to us than it did only a couple of years ago. Note that, I do believe the "low-end" (say under $1500) video processor market is going away. Because of this we are focusing on the custom home theater, and custom commercial, markets.
We sell a solution. Some buy our video processors for switching, some for calibration, some for our extensive configuration features, some for the improved processing, and some buy for the unique combination of these. We have a lot of features that don't make sense for high volume manufacturers to even try to implement, but are needed for specific situations.
Some of the unique features that I doubt most projector or amp companies would put in their own products are:
- 3D linear-gamma RGB color palette for true primary/secondary calibration
- 6 HDMI in with each having its own receiver chip for fast switching
- 32 configuration memories per input (4 mem * 8 resolutions)
- 8 output configurations
- No-ring scaling
- Extensive configuration/calibration features
- Features specific to only a few systems in the entire world
- Planned "long-life" rather than "planned-obsolescence" by virtue of free performance enhancements literally years after the product goes into production (as demonstrated by our Vision series of products).
Certainly we are looking for OEM arrangements with projector manufacturers and audio companies. In fact I am tuning the RadianceXS design to make it easier to convert to such an application. I have to believe there is a projector or audio company out there that cares enough about video to be willing to pay a premium for the best video processing available.
I could go into more detail, but I think I have made my point. If we continue to innovate I believe there will continue to be a market for our video processors. |
Athanasios
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Axatax
Joined: 01 Nov 2006
Posts: 403
TV/Projector: Sony VPH-G70Q (aka Barco Cine8 Onyx)
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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Alot of these posts seem to conclude that once HDTV is prevalent, we will have reached some sort of pinnacle, at which point all progress will cease, and there will no longer be any improvement in video. There is already talk of 2K consumer projectors in the not too distant future.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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dbaisey
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 821
Location: Southern Cal LA / Seattle WA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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There are many home theaters / owners that 'need' the Lumagen or processor to be cost effective and do what they had visioned. On some RS232 control is a must as well as per source input / per output resolution and format. They are not going away because there is a need for them and the solution.
If your just using two inputs then it may not be what you need, it depends on what you want. Doug
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| nomadII wrote: | Is Phil Smiths G-70 capable of a image better now than when Sony stopped its production?
Did the good folks at Electrohome ever think that the 8500 could produce the image that MP is capable of coaxing out
of it?
When is the last time anyone here ever bought something from or directly contacted Barco?
You can choose to criticize or you can innovate, benefit or not benefit from those that attempt to further video improvements amongst the CRT landscape.
Those who help keep these machines viable have my respect & support. Foreign to me that anyone could think differently? |
I don't need processing to make my G70 better. It's better now because of better source material.
Mark, you're among those that take the HT thing as far as it can go with no expense spared. Most of us are very happy at a MUCH lower cost level.
| Quote: | | Gary, thru what I can only imagine was a large effort, has introduced the possiblilty of HD-SDI output from at least one video processor & a still unfinished list of HD sources. |
This an example of added cost (quite a bit of added cost) that I think adds zero to the PQ. I'm willing to bet money that no one can distinguish HD-SDI from HDMI in a blind test, because I don't think is any difference! The picture will be identical.
So not all of us are convinced that taking HT to it's limits necessarily makes for a better HT, at least not enough of an improvement to begin to justify the cost. The increments of improvement are small (and sometimes zero), while the costs are high.
Last edited by Phil Smith on Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Axatax wrote: | | Alot of these posts seem to conclude that once HDTV is prevalent, we will have reached some sort of pinnacle, at which point all progress will cease, and there will no longer be any improvement in video. There is already talk of 2K consumer projectors in the not too distant future. |
| Nashou66 wrote: | they already have 4k cameras(saw a demo at the apple store in London last DEC) and have 4k displays to edit them in the pro arena tho ,so yes HD is just the beginning.
Athanasios |
These projectors and displays will have built-in scalers (obviously-they couldn't display HDTV otherwise). You're assuming those scalers will be lacking. I bet they won't be. Let's just wait and see before we jump to any conclusions.
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nomadII
Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Posts: 252
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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Someone had to get off their ass to make sure improved sources could be fully utilized.
Sony owners have surely benefitted from digital input capability wouldn't you agree??
If everyone sat around & said "good enough" all of us CRT videophiles would be the poorer for it.
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with that! Moome's HDMI card with gamma works very well. I was very pleased to own one.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Gary M. wrote: |
when someone tells me that costs relates to the validity of a scaler (or any other item) when applied to a CRT projection system and we can't discuss the validity of a scaler without bringing up my f*cking life story and how I choose to live with my folks, then it's time for me to walk, simple as that, and I wonder why I steered clear of CRT based forums for 6 months 
this thread is stupid and sucks 
-Gary |
You brought up cost having no bearing, but it in fact does for a lot of people. If you want to live with your parents in east bumble Kentucky, then fine with me. The problem is when you think people should just spend money for the best without consideration of budgetary concerns whether it has a large or minimal improvement.
| stefuel wrote: |
Trust me, if I really wanted a NEW scaler (I already have a older one, or two, or three) I could pay cash for one right now without cracking a sweat. It was not my intension to bring money into the discussion but that's the direction this thread has turned. The intent was to decide if there will be long term (not money) value in keeping a VP in the mix. You have to admit that higher end CE products (source devices) have come a long way in the past five or six years. Many here have said that they could do without a VP as I do. The closest thing I have to a VP for HD sources is a Box 1020 which provides gamma control and adjusts for image centering. That is all I need to get a perfect picture from my 4600HD. While we're on the subject of my choice of projectors, yes I did get a great deal on it but the fact remains that I was in the market for that particular projector and cost was not a issue. At the time, I could have bought any 9" LC on the market. I was extremely lucky one weekend in that I was able to view both a modded 9500LC which I think was a Ultra and the 4600HD that's hanging in my theater now. Sorry boys, the 4600HD beat it hands down. Later to confirm it, I invited a forum member over to see my 4600HD and then drove him to HiRez to view their latest modded 9500LC. How many here remember the fight between Mike Parker and HiRez.  Well, we were there. Oh, and by the way, I bought that projector long before tse was a forum member. Perhaps I could use that same arguement for people buying Marquees with Tim on the forum  |
Wow, over the years I always thought you were a bang for the buck guy. On the Ampro and HiRez meet, I remember that. I believe you wore a moire pattern shirt. I guess I remember it incorrectly as I thought you said the HiRez 9500 wasn't that much better than your 4600 to warrant the price difference. I am not sure even Scott would say there is that much difference between the pjs or one is better than the other. As for tse, I just threw that in there because Dave considers me Scott's press agent.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Axatax wrote: | | Alot of these posts seem to conclude that once HDTV is prevalent, we will have reached some sort of pinnacle, at which point all progress will cease, and there will no longer be any improvement in video. There is already talk of 2K consumer projectors in the not too distant future. |
I don't think anyone believes that HDTV won't continue to improve, but how much will that improvement matter to everyone? Going from HD to 2k is going to be a much smaller step for most people than the jump from SD to HD. Now, I am not saying no one on this forum will care about 2k, but I bet the number is smaller than you think.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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I still think this is all up to individual interpretation. Do I think a VP is beneficial? Yes. Is it worth the added expense? Not for me at this time. To me this is like when I did a comparison between my PSB Stratus Golds and the HTGuide's Dayton TMWWs. I thought the difference between the two was marginal with the Daytons being the better speaker. The Dayton owner said he could hear large differences and that the Daytons were much better. This same person has built other speakers and says he can hear differences between different crossover components. Maybe I am just not the audiophile or videophile I thought I was. Anyway at the end of the day, the only way to know for sure is to demo said equipment for yourself. As for VP manufacturers, I would guess they will be around for a couple more years until advanced chips become a commodity.
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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"I guess I remember it incorrectly as I thought you said the HiRez 9500 wasn't that much better than your 4600 to warrant the price difference."
No, you probably remember correctly. I was stuck in the middle and was meerly being polite. Perhaps Heywood Jablome will chime in and add his .02 about the comparison between HiRez's modded 9500LC and my 4600HD? He was with me.
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A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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