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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Gino wrote: | | Gary M. wrote: | I know what you mean about mucking with a good config Gino, I love to get mine set after weeks of fixing and never touch it for months  |
Yes, but the tricky bit in my setup is the Radiance needs to play nice with the VP50Pro which needs to play nice with the DVX. sometimes one small adjustment can throw things out of whack |
Wow...With all that processing do you have to do lip sync compensation?
Mike
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Doing HD since the last century!
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Gino wrote: | | Phil Smith wrote: | I don't like saying stuff like this, but since you guys keep hammering on it:
I'm ok in the money department, at least when it comes to affording HT gear. I could pay cash for whatever I want, whenever I want, and never notice the money was gone. I'm sure this is true of many other forum members.
Just as I said, some of us don't believe the hype, and/or just don't want it or feel like we need it. |
I'm sorry Phil but this is just BS. Having the VP50Pro and the Radiance in my chain is not hype. Money no object? Then come down here and see for yourself what sorts of improvements I gain from these over just going direct. |
Ok, let's not get carried away here. I don't make but an average income. I just sold my house and I'm flush with money - at least for moment. I could do a Gino setup (or 3 or 4), but buying a Gino setup would very much hurt me financially in the long run, even though I have the cash. Now going out and spending $5K on a scaler? That I could do, no sweat.
Part of the reason I can spend that kind of money is because I don't spend that kind of money. 
I know it's not all hype Gino, but I do think some of it is. I'm happy with what I own, which doesn't include a scaler.
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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Back in the early 90's, you could buy brand spanking new graphics grade crt projectors for 12-15K and a Faroudja line doubler for 10K. The faroudja was considered "support" equipment. Now we can buy a kick-a$$ graphics grade pj for 3K and a top of the line processor for 5K. Which one is the support equipment?
Hypothitical situation.
I'm a newb. I've been over to forum members XXXX house and I'm drooling for a nice big picture along with great sound. I have a bare room selected and I have to start from scratch. I have zero audio or video equipment, nada, zip. After begging and pleading with the wife, she's allowed me to set aside 8 thousand for the project. So there's the challenge. Build be a satisfactory theater.
The only rules are,
A. Stay within the budget.
B. The sound system must be on par with the video ( so you can't cheap-out on the sound for better video?)
C. The projector must come from Curt so I'm assured a warrantee and a fair price.
D. Enough money set aside for pro calibration.
Go for it 
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Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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Gino
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 1363
Location: Trinity Beach, AUSTRALIA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:02 am Post subject: |
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| stefuel wrote: | The only rules are,
A. Stay within the budget.
B. The sound system must be on par with the video ( so you can't cheap-out on the sound for better video?)
C. The projector must come from Curt so I'm assured a warrantee and a fair price.
D. Enough money set aside for pro calibration.
Go for it |
Yes, in that scenario you could afford to skip out on the scaler, but that doesn't mean that the VP is hype and doesn't offer anything.
I can see that the extra expense won't give you the same proportion in improvement for most. In my case, having the 2 scalers ($8K) is only a small fraction of what I have spent on the video side of my hometheatre (~12%), so for me it's worthwhile in my pursuit for uncompromised PQ.
Perhaps if a VP was 12% of a persons video outlay, eg. $2K projector, $300 screen, so a $250 VP may be more than just hype.
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Gino
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 1363
Location: Trinity Beach, AUSTRALIA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| Phil Smith wrote: | | I just sold my house and I'm flush with money - at least for moment. I could do a Gino setup (or 3 or 4), but buying a Gino setup would very much hurt me financially in the long run, even though I have the cash. |
Well you are doing better than most I would imagine. I am only just capable of supporting my entire HT setup. Let alone 3 or 4. $150K for what I have now, add to that another $70K at the end of the year. This for someone who is earning over $300K pa.
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Gino
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 1363
Location: Trinity Beach, AUSTRALIA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:09 am Post subject: |
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| MikeEby wrote: | | Gino wrote: | | Gary M. wrote: | | I know what you mean about mucking with a good config Gino, I love to get mine set after weeks of fixing and never touch it for months |
Yes, but the tricky bit in my setup is the Radiance needs to play nice with the VP50Pro which needs to play nice with the DVX. sometimes one small adjustment can throw things out of whack |
Wow...With all that processing do you have to do lip sync compensation?
Mike |
Suprisingly this hasn't been an issue at all. Or perhaps not suprisingly. I am not really pushing the processing power of any of the processors. The Radiance only really worries about scaling and CMS, grey scale and gamma, but at 150Mhz max pixel clocks. The VP50Pro only worries about aspect ratio control and converting to 72Hz. The DVX only worries about the blending. Each box is capable of doing so much more.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:02 am Post subject: |
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| Gino wrote: | | stefuel wrote: | The only rules are,
A. Stay within the budget.
B. The sound system must be on par with the video ( so you can't cheap-out on the sound for better video?)
C. The projector must come from Curt so I'm assured a warrantee and a fair price.
D. Enough money set aside for pro calibration.
Go for it |
Yes, in that scenario you could afford to skip out on the scaler, but that doesn't mean that the VP is hype and doesn't offer anything.
I can see that the extra expense won't give you the same proportion in improvement for most. In my case, having the 2 scalers ($8K) is only a small fraction of what I have spent on the video side of my hometheatre (~12%), so for me it's worthwhile in my pursuit for uncompromised PQ.
Perhaps if a VP was 12% of a persons video outlay, eg. $2K projector, $300 screen, so a $250 VP may be more than just hype. |
Gino my friend, you must have me confused with someone else. In seven or eight pages here, I never said there wasn't benifits to a scaler and I never used the term "hype" If your processors total 8K and they represent 12% of your total theater expense, then your theater is by far a minority on this forum. I would be willing to bet that the average theater on this forum is 12K or less. You are lucky to be able to afford to go for that last little bit of performance. Most here can't or could but have their eyes fixed on other priorities. I for one have other priorities. My oldest boy just finished up 10K of dental workout of pocket. My youngest boy who is autistic just got a new custom PC with special keyboards, programming and overlays to help him communicat with the world around him. That was another 6K out of pocket. To me, at least in my situation, dropping 5K on a scaler to gain 2-3% better image represents frigged up priorities. Also, home theater is not my only hobby. Like I said before if you have the means and desire, go for it.
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Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:07 am Post subject: |
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Oooops, forgot the screen, interconnects and calibration.
And you aren't seriously considering selling anyone a AmPro? Most of you have been harping on me over my 4600HD for what seems like forever so the projector of choice will be a 9500LC.
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Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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Gino
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 1363
Location: Trinity Beach, AUSTRALIA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:24 am Post subject: |
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| stefuel wrote: | | Gino my friend, you must have me confused with someone else. In seven or eight pages here, I never said there wasn't benifits to a scaler and I never used the term "hype" If your processors total 8K and they represent 12% of your total theater expense, then your theater is by far a minority on this forum. I would be willing to bet that the average theater on this forum is 12K or less. You are lucky to be able to afford to go for that last little bit of performance. Most here can't or could but have their eyes fixed on other priorities. I for one have other priorities. My oldest boy just finished up 10K of dental workout of pocket. My youngest boy who is autistic just got a new custom PC with special keyboards, programming and overlays to help him communicat with the world around him. That was another 6K out of pocket. To me, at least in my situation, dropping 5K on a scaler to gain 2-3% better image represents frigged up priorities. Also, home theater is not my only hobby. Like I said before if you have the means and desire, go for it. |
Chip my friend, that was more in response to Phil who has used the word 'hype' several times already in this thread.
If I had a family I'm certain my priorities would be more in line with yours.
I'm still not certain on where this 2-3% improvement number comes from. I'd say they do more for me than that.
An ISF calibration will do loads more than that for your PQ. Being able to get as close to perfect Primaries, Secondaries, perfectly flat grey scale tracking and a tweaked gamma curve are more than incremental improvements. Yes, you can accomplish 'very good' in these areas, but until you can see 'close to perfect', how can you quantify just 2-3%. Then there is smooth 1080p72. This again does lots for me in my viewing pleasure.
I'd wager that majority of people pre ISF calibration thought their image was very good already, until they had someone like Ken Whitcomb come around and show them what a reference calibration does for your image. I'd wager they saw a more than 2-3% improvement. Imagine the sorts of calibrations Ken can achieve if he had a Radiance in the chain to really get things as close to perfect as possible.
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Gary M.
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:40 am Post subject: |
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| Gino wrote: | | MikeEby wrote: | | Gino wrote: | | Gary M. wrote: | | I know what you mean about mucking with a good config Gino, I love to get mine set after weeks of fixing and never touch it for months |
Yes, but the tricky bit in my setup is the Radiance needs to play nice with the VP50Pro which needs to play nice with the DVX. sometimes one small adjustment can throw things out of whack |
Wow...With all that processing do you have to do lip sync compensation?
Mike |
Suprisingly this hasn't been an issue at all. Or perhaps not suprisingly. I am not really pushing the processing power of any of the processors. The Radiance only really worries about scaling and CMS, grey scale and gamma, but at 150Mhz max pixel clocks. The VP50Pro only worries about aspect ratio control and converting to 72Hz. The DVX only worries about the blending. Each box is capable of doing so much more. |
Gino how does your flow chain look with all this gear lined up, the multiple scalers and such?
I am working on a HD-SDI input mod for the Radiance and a HD-SDI output mod for the VP50pro, would love to let you see them and let me know what you think in that complex setup, with a HD-SDI output on the Radiance as well you could go 100% HD-SDI for video from source to zilla
-Gary
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Mark_A_W
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:30 am Post subject: |
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| Gary M. wrote: |
what does the lord Jesus have to do with scaler validity ?
-Gary |
This comment offends my lack of religion.
Please keep irrational rantings out of this thread and stick to scalers.
Scalers/VPs/Interpolators....call it what you want, you don't really need, one coz a PC will do it too (actually the same PC I'm typing this on, you don't need a dedicated PC).
Nice to have maybe, better performance if you spend enough, but hardly essential, I've never had a VP and my Bluray/HD-DVD image at 1080i 96hz is plenty good enough for me.
LOL, I'm now unsubscribing to this thread, life is just too short, I just can't resist having a niggle at the god botherers. 
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Gino
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 1363
Location: Trinity Beach, AUSTRALIA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:53 am Post subject: |
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| Mark_A_W wrote: | Scalers/VPs/Interpolators....call it what you want, you don't really need, one coz a PC will do it too (actually the same PC I'm typing this on, you don't need a dedicated PC).
Nice to have maybe, better performance if you spend enough, but hardly essential, I've never had a VP and my Bluray/HD-DVD image at 1080i 96hz is plenty good enough for me. |
Of course none of this essential Mark!
Good enough is good enough. It's those of us who aren't happy with "Just" good enough that are nuts like myself who bother with non essential things like scalers or 3.
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Gino
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 1363
Location: Trinity Beach, AUSTRALIA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:58 am Post subject: |
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| Gary M. wrote: | Gino how does your flow chain look with all this gear lined up, the multiple scalers and such?
I am working on a HD-SDI input mod for the Radiance and a HD-SDI output mod for the VP50pro, would love to let you see them and let me know what you think in that complex setup, with a HD-SDI output on the Radiance as well you could go 100% HD-SDI for video from source to zilla |
Sources -> Radiance -> VP50Pro -> Moome DVI -> DVX -> Moome internal
I couldn't give up 1080p72 from the Pro to the Moome. single link HD-SDI cannot support this
I'd only be interested in seeing HD-SDI sources, to HD-SDI input from Radiance, then HD-SDI output from Radiance to my HD-SDI input module on the Pro. So if you can provide the first 3 or even 2 I'd likely be interested.
Do your initial tests actually show tangible improvements with HD-SDI over HDMI?
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Gary M.
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:14 am Post subject: |
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| Mark_A_W wrote: | | Gary M. wrote: |
what does the lord Jesus have to do with scaler validity ?
-Gary |
Please keep irrational rantings out of this thread and stick to scalers.
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make me
so irreverence to what is a sacred figure to some people is offensive and irrational to you Mark? give me a f*cking break dude
you commented to me saying I am being irrational and offensive and I was commenting to Phil saying he was being irrational and offensive, what makes what you said any better than what I did? if you believed your own advice you wouldn't have posted what you did
-Gary
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Gary M.
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:29 am Post subject: |
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| Gino wrote: | | Gary M. wrote: | Gino how does your flow chain look with all this gear lined up, the multiple scalers and such?
I am working on a HD-SDI input mod for the Radiance and a HD-SDI output mod for the VP50pro, would love to let you see them and let me know what you think in that complex setup, with a HD-SDI output on the Radiance as well you could go 100% HD-SDI for video from source to zilla |
Sources -> Radiance -> VP50Pro -> Moome DVI -> DVX -> Moome internal
I couldn't give up 1080p72 from the Pro to the Moome. single link HD-SDI cannot support this
I'd only be interested in seeing HD-SDI sources, to HD-SDI input from Radiance, then HD-SDI output from Radiance to my HD-SDI input module on the Pro. So if you can provide the first 3 or even 2 I'd likely be interested.
Do your initial tests actually show tangible improvements with HD-SDI over HDMI? |
Gino I have just gotten started offering these mods, no comparisons as of yet, was hoping for some help with that from forums members
most people with zilla's are telling me that they can fed it a 1080i or 1080p/24 signal via HD-SDI and that the unit will output 1080p/74 or etc. for the PJ, Mike and a few of the guys say the zilla performs best when fed a HD-SDI signal, this was my main concern for attempting to offer this mod for scalers, so guys like you could fed the zilla HD-SDI
likewise you have reminded me of another application, feeding dual scalers, HD-SDI between the scalers would be ideal and I have no doubt that this would lead to the best PQ possible for a complex amazing setup like yours
I am going to use HD-SDI and a few other mod tricks to go back to RGBHV for my personal system, freeing HDMI for audio only
-Gary
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| Gino wrote: | | stefuel wrote: | | Gino my friend, you must have me confused with someone else. In seven or eight pages here, I never said there wasn't benifits to a scaler and I never used the term "hype" If your processors total 8K and they represent 12% of your total theater expense, then your theater is by far a minority on this forum. I would be willing to bet that the average theater on this forum is 12K or less. You are lucky to be able to afford to go for that last little bit of performance. Most here can't or could but have their eyes fixed on other priorities. I for one have other priorities. My oldest boy just finished up 10K of dental workout of pocket. My youngest boy who is autistic just got a new custom PC with special keyboards, programming and overlays to help him communicat with the world around him. That was another 6K out of pocket. To me, at least in my situation, dropping 5K on a scaler to gain 2-3% better image represents frigged up priorities. Also, home theater is not my only hobby. Like I said before if you have the means and desire, go for it. |
Chip my friend, that was more in response to Phil who has used the word 'hype' several times already in this thread.
If I had a family I'm certain my priorities would be more in line with yours.
I'm still not certain on where this 2-3% improvement number comes from. I'd say they do more for me than that.
An ISF calibration will do loads more than that for your PQ. Being able to get as close to perfect Primaries, Secondaries, perfectly flat grey scale tracking and a tweaked gamma curve are more than incremental improvements. Yes, you can accomplish 'very good' in these areas, but until you can see 'close to perfect', how can you quantify just 2-3%. Then there is smooth 1080p72. This again does lots for me in my viewing pleasure.
I'd wager that majority of people pre ISF calibration thought their image was very good already, until they had someone like Ken Whitcomb come around and show them what a reference calibration does for your image. I'd wager they saw a more than 2-3% improvement. Imagine the sorts of calibrations Ken can achieve if he had a Radiance in the chain to really get things as close to perfect as possible. |
I hate to use the term "ISF calibration". Most of the lastest batch of ISF newb's can't find their way around a CRT projector and in many instances do more harm than good. I as well as many on this forum, have the experiance and equipment required to perform top notch calibrations without a "ISF" certification stamp next to our name As I understand it, you also have a nack for it. Numbers generated and read on test equipment does not change based on who's reading it.
That 2-3% was not pre/post calibration but with/without post processing. Even if that figure was more like 4-5%, 5K is alot to put aside to resolve. Like I said about means and desires. Hell, look at what extent some audiophiles will go with their speaker wires. Now that really blows my mind.
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Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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Axatax
Joined: 01 Nov 2006
Posts: 403
TV/Projector: Sony VPH-G70Q (aka Barco Cine8 Onyx)
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:19 am Post subject: |
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I don't understand the "hype" comments. Ex. If I feed 480i to a derinterlacer, it will output a progressive signal. How can this even be debated? Whether any function of a VP is of benefit to any individual is absolutely debatable, but that's not "hype", it's fact.
Claiming a VP is "hype" is like claiming the distance from Miami to NYC is just "hype", because you don't plan on traveling that route (and thus the information would not be useful).
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| Axatax wrote: | I don't understand the "hype" comments. Ex. If I feed 480i to a derinterlacer, it will output a progressive signal. How can this even be debated? Whether any function of a VP is of benefit to any individual is absolutely debatable, but that's not "hype", it's fact.
Claiming a VP is "hype" is like claiming the distance from Miami to NYC is just "hype", because you don't plan on traveling that route (and thus the information would not be useful). |
I'm not sure where this came from. If you read the very first post, this is a HD arguement. Is there a requirement for post processing of high def HDMI signals? Some say yes and some say no. Not one person here will argue the need for a scaler to process 480I.
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Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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Axatax
Joined: 01 Nov 2006
Posts: 403
TV/Projector: Sony VPH-G70Q (aka Barco Cine8 Onyx)
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I'm not sure where this came from. If you read the very first post, this is a HD arguement. Is there a requirement for post processing of high def HDMI signals? Some say yes and some say no. Not one person here will argue the need for a scaler to process 480I. |
You don't NEED to deinterlace 480i, either. Infact, you don't even NEED a projector.
Nobody is arguing what anybody NEEDS, and I won't attempt to, as everyones' NEEDS are probably different. But HD deinterlacing is no more "hype" than 480i deinterlacing. There are VPs that will perform this function, and that's a fact. Whether you NEED this is up to you. That's not "hype".
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