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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:27 am Post subject: |
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| Mark_A_W wrote: | | Otherwise it will accept STANDARD 1080i 60hz and convert to 1080p 60hz. |
No it doesn't Mark. It displays 1080i. Read that thread I linked to for you. Skip to the discussions about interlaced.
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Mark_A_W
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:20 am Post subject: |
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No it doesn't Phil. That is a complete misunderstanding of reality by a bunch of idiots. (The avs thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=905218&highlight=HITACHI)
A plasma is a progressive display.
It seems yours may be limited to a 1080i INPUT which it then processes and deinterlaces (badly) and then displays PROGRESSIVE at it's native res (1920x1080? I didn't check).
ONLY a CRT can DISPLAY a progressive res. Interlacing is a pure analogue thing. Other than is an input format it doesn't apply to digital displays - they always deinterlace it.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:49 am Post subject: |
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We've already been through this in Phil's other thread, and you're wrong, Mark. Initally, I took the same position you are now. But, then Dave found some info somewhere on how this particular display actually works. It's not typical.
You're right in that it isn't interlacing ala CRT, but you're NOT right in that it is NOT updated progressively like most digital panel displays. Hitachi has implemented some sort of scheme whereby two sets of lines are refreshed in an alternating fashion. Something to do with contrast or something. So instead of refreshing the entire panel with each refresh cycle, you refresh one set of lines, then another set of lines. (You can see why people might confuse it with interlacing). Maybe it's cheaper than full 1080p, or maybe it yields a desired result with this particular panel or something. Regardless, then people at Hitachi call it "1080i" when that's clearly a misnomer. Then, a bunch of people with little real technical background or knowledge in the AVS thread also call it 1080i, because that's "what the rep said" and act like a bunch of know-it-alls when people ask a legitimate question about how it works.
| Phil Smith wrote: | | That's a good point, and you may be right, but the exact same 1080i settings worked with my G70. Not sure if that has any relevance or not. |
Sorry, but it really doesn't have any relevance. The CRT projector has the advantage of being able to display practically anything you throw at (as long as it isn't TOO far out of the box). Not so with CE displays. If the timing was off even slightly from standard 1080i, the CE display would have freaked out, where the G70 would have dutifully displayed what you asked.
SC
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Mark_A_W
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:01 am Post subject: |
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Really?
I stand corrected. That's just bizarro. It is the first digital I have ever heard of that doesn't update progressively.
I'd still feed it a standard 24p though, if that works.
Phil, SC is right about the timings. You need the exact standard 1080i 60hz timing if you want that to work...even then it's hit and miss.
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:22 am Post subject: |
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I wonder if there are any commercial/industrial plasma displays that can do nuts-O timings?
99.9% of the typical consumers would be thrilled with the performance of a current consumer grade 1080P/I plasma screen.
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Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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As far as timings go, I haven't had much trouble getting anything to work other than 1080i. Maybe I need to play with it more.
I'm currently running 1080/24i. I don't have a 1080/24p option for some reason. 1080/24i seems to works just fine--oddly enough. Maybe it's not really 24i (I'm using nvidia drivers, so who knows for sure). I really don't see any difference between any of the resolutions. 1080 may be a slight improvement over 720, but if it is, it's not much. All variations of 1080 look identical to me. This of course is with upscaled SD DVD.
I played around with it a little last night. Black levels are horrible, and it's because when the pixels display black, they're unable to get anywhere near blocking the panel's backlight. This is so bad that the "brightness" adjustment effectively is really the "black crush" adjustment. When displaying a full black screen, the brightness adjustment doesn't have any effect until you hit about 60 (on a 0-100 scale). This is again because of the backlight bleeding through. If you display normal video, going below 60 only crushes the blacks, as well as everything else. Black itself remains unchanged.
With this huge limitation, it's surprising that some bright scenes can look very good. I guess it's because 100 ire is so bright. Dark scenes just look awful though. Quite a downgrade from what I'm use to.
Here's an explanation of what makes the panel interlaced. As afar I can tell, there's nothing pseudo about it. It's full blown interlaced: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13993562#post13993562
I guess the flicker I sometimes see is caused by my HTPC, my TV's shortcomings, bad program material, or a combination of those reasons. I know how CRT displays work. I don't know anything about digital displays. On a progressive display, each frame is rendered all at once? All the pixels light up and shut off at the same time?
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Mark_A_W
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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There's no such thing as 24i Phil, not to my knowledge (which was wrong about the interlaced plasma).
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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Mark, I don't see how 24i could work. You'd end up 12 full frames per second, right?
But that's what it's labeled as.
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perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2920
Location: Ithaca, NY
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:22 am Post subject: |
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| stefuel wrote: | I wonder if there are any commercial/industrial plasma displays that can do nuts-O timings?
99.9% of the typical consumers would be thrilled with the performance of a current consumer grade 1080P/I plasma screen. |
My oldish Fujitsu 42" 852x480 plasma will display lots of different stuff - it's even got a kind of 'memory block' thing going on like some CRT PJs do. I ran it at 1366x720, 1440x960... not much point, though, since I either drive it with a PC or with component/svideo (no HDTV here).
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil Smith wrote: | | I don't know anything about digital displays. On a progressive display, each frame is rendered all at once? All the pixels light up and shut off at the same time? |
Well you guys lack of a response made me have to research it.  
Plasma screens are basically a network of red, green and blue phosphors (each triad makes up a single pixel) mounted between two thin layers of glass. Plasma screens use a small electric pulse for each pixel to excite the rare natural gases argon, neon and xenon used to produce the color information and light. As electrons excite the phosphors, oxygen atoms dissipate and create plasma, emitting UV light. These rare gases actually have a life and fade over time.
Here's the cool part: because all the phosphor-excited pixels react at the same time, there is never any flicker apparent to the viewer. There's also no backlight and no projection of any kind, so the light-emitting phosphors, result in a bright display with a penchant for rich color and a wide viewing angle.
| Phil Smith wrote: | | Black levels are horrible, and it's because when the pixels display black, they're unable to get anywhere near blocking the panel's backlight. |
Ok, no backlight. That makes it difficult to understand why the black levels are so poor. I would say the brightness of an all black screen on my plasma is much higher than my cheap LCD PC monitor. I'll compare them tonight.
Last edited by Phil Smith on Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2920
Location: Ithaca, NY
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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Older plasmas, and probably some less expensive new ones, have lousy black levels because they have to keep the cells pre-charged to a higher level to keep them 'going'. There's no flicker because the cells don't drop back to zero; the charge level changes but doesn't bounce up and down.
The vintage plasma that I have has pretty poor black levels, although to be honest in a room with higher ambient light it's better than the CRT RPTV, and the on/off is far, far, far better. With low ambient light the CRT wins, but for use as a daytime TV the plasma wins by a long shot due to its superior black level relative to a CRT RPTV, which is a pretty medium gray in high ambient light.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark_A_W wrote: | Really?
I stand corrected. That's just bizarro. It is the first digital I have ever heard of that doesn't update progressively. |
Me too which is why I told Phil he was an idiot for calling it 1080i!!!! 
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil Smith wrote: |
I've tried everything you mentioned except 1080/24p and 720/72p. I settled on 720/60p because my FFDShow sharpen filter was working pretty hard (high cpu cycles) at 1080/60p, plus I couldn't see any difference between the two. |
I'll bet you a big bag of money that it will not sync to 720p/72.
You should try 1080p/24 as if it handles it (I doubt it) it would be best for movies.
Also, don't do 720p for non-720p source material--BAD IDEA. You will be double scaling. Your HTPC will scale 480p to 720p, then the display will scale the 720 to 1080. With HD material, your HTPC would downscale the 1080 to 720 only for the display to scale it back up to 1080.
Try 1080i and see if it looks better than 720p (it will if the display de-nterlaces properly, it won't if it does straight bob).
As was said, you really want to find out if you can put it into a 1:1 mode.
And why would 1080p be hard on your HTPC? It is no problem for a $750 scaler and Perisoft tells me that an HTPC that cost less than $1000 can do all the same processing with no issues and I know your HTPC cost more than that. Hmmm, could he be incorrect?
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2920
Location: Ithaca, NY
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: |
And why would 1080p be hard on your HTPC? It is no problem for a $750 scaler and Perisoft tells me that an HTPC that cost less than $1000 can do all the same processing with no issues and I know your HTPC cost more than that. Hmmm, could he be incorrect? |
Not if he got it a year ago, or got it from the wrong place - or got it with the specs favoring storage heavily. I could spend ten grand on a machine with a lousy CPU and gobs of storage.
Plus, at this time two years ago, a single core 3ghz-ish CPU was hot sh*t. Now it's at least one generation ahead in terms of basic chip design, and you're running four cores on a chip instead of one. Performance increases are astronomical over time - the machines I spec for our motion platforms at ~$1500 get 10 to 20 times faster for 3D every six months (not just pure CPU, but CPU and 3D combined).
I know you can spec such a machine for under 1k because I just built myself one for work. Intel Core2 Quad, 4gb memory, 500gb HD, 8500GT. I have a feeling that core2quad will easily run limitedsharpen at 960p, but limitedsharpen will barely work at 480p on my dual core 2.6ghz Pentium D.
A normal unsharp mask is VERY VERY efficient, though; I run those at 960p on the aforementioned pentium D at under 30% CPU utilization. Maybe there's some DRM nastiness going on with high def material? You're only pushing about 6x the pixels as SD, so a quad core ought to almost take care of that on its own, not even counting clock rate bumps and per-cycle performance increases. If the software's only using one core, though, all bets are off. But ffdshow with avisynth should use quad core.
If it's not dual or quad core then it's an old box and my above point stands.
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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| perisoft wrote: | | Older plasmas, and probably some less expensive new ones, have lousy black levels because they have to keep the cells pre-charged to a higher level to keep them 'going'. There's no flicker because the cells don't drop back to zero; the charge level changes but doesn't bounce up and down. |
Thanks! I was pretty puzzled as to why it had such poor black level performance. Now I understand.
| Quote: | | The vintage plasma that I have has pretty poor black levels, although to be honest in a room with higher ambient light it's better than the CRT RPTV, and the on/off is far, far, far better. With low ambient light the CRT wins, but for use as a daytime TV the plasma wins by a long shot due to its superior black level relative to a CRT RPTV, which is a pretty medium gray in high ambient light. |
I noticed that too. I would go as far as to say that my plasma looks better during the day than at night. The ambient light masks the poor black level performance.
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | Phil Smith wrote: |
I've tried everything you mentioned except 1080/24p and 720/72p. I settled on 720/60p because my FFDShow sharpen filter was working pretty hard (high cpu cycles) at 1080/60p, plus I couldn't see any difference between the two. |
I'll bet you a big bag of money that it will not sync to 720p/72. |
Dave, I'm afraid to try it. Not sure if the plasma's signal path can handle that high of refresh rate or not. Don't want to find out the hard way it can't.
| Quote: | | You should try 1080p/24 as if it handles it (I doubt it) it would be best for movies. |
That's probably what I'm running. Windows reports it as 1080/24 *i*, but like Mark said, that resolution probably doesn't exist.
| Quote: | Also, don't do 720p for non-720p source material--BAD IDEA. You will be double scaling. Your HTPC will scale 480p to 720p, then the display will scale the 720 to 1080. With HD material, your HTPC would downscale the 1080 to 720 only for the display to scale it back up to 1080.
Try 1080i and see if it looks better than 720p (it will if the display de-nterlaces properly, it won't if it does straight bob). |
I've tried several things. What's working best (partially because CPU limitations when running an Avisynth sharpen filter) is FFDShow upscaling SD DVD to 720p, and the video card upscaling that to 1080 (probably p).
| Quote: | | As was said, you really want to find out if you can put it into a 1:1 mode. |
Still not clear on the 1/1 thing. I doubt I can do it though. The plasma has very little in the way of setting or adjustments. This is an area that it's low cost really shows.
| Quote: | | And why would 1080p be hard on your HTPC? It is no problem for a $750 scaler and Perisoft tells me that an HTPC that cost less than $1000 can do all the same processing with no issues and I know your HTPC cost more than that. Hmmm, could he be incorrect? |
It's all about my sharpen filter and CPU cycles Dave. The jump from 720p to 1080p creates a LOT more pixels to be processed by the sharpen filter. I just don't have enough of an HTPC to pull it off.
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:06 am Post subject: |
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| perisoft wrote: | | Not if he got it a year ago, or got it from the wrong place - or got it with the specs favoring storage heavily. |
I updated it 2 years ago (I think). Changed everything but the case, power supply and DVD drive. It cost me a lot because Core 2 had just come out. My HTPC has an E6600, which is slow by today standards.
But it's all about FFDShow and Avisynth. The way I use it is extremely processor intensive. If it wasn't for that, I'd have WAY more processor than needed for normal HTPC uses.
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