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armstrr
Joined: 26 Mar 2006
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 10:40 pm Post subject: which would you get for 9500lc setup? lumagen HDP or VP50 |
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9500lc with gt17 lenses, 2005ish mike parker mods, moome internal hdmi card with gamma
sources will be:
tivo HD (for HD channels over antenna only...no cable)
ps3
HD satellite receiver
receiver will likely be a denon 2808ci
screen is still up in the air. torus is possible (i have built two before) or possibly a diy frame with Hurley screen material. screen width will be between 8 and 9'.
i'm sure either scaler would do a wonderful job. i know the vp50 is a little newer with hdmi, but there are cable work arounds for the lumagen.
i was hoping to send 960p or 1080p only to the pj through hdmi/dvi.
is there any reason to go for one over the other? they both appear occasionally on videogon/ebay for under 1K.
thanks, boyz!!
robb
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Electeohome marquee 9500lc, lumagen hdp, 9' da lite high power screen denon 2809ci paradigm speakers home made dual stacked subs
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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In this choice, what you will be watching is much more important than your sources.
Do you watch alot of movies? Will they mostly be 1080p/24 BDs or much of it from HD satellite? What about sports--more or less important than movies. what about prime time shows? What about SD? DVDs, movies from cable, sports, other shows?
I'm a Lumagen fan, but they each have their pluses and minuses. You need to select the best one based upon your viewing habits and priorities.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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armstrr
Joined: 26 Mar 2006
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 12:04 am Post subject: |
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thanks for the reply.
ok. good questions.
in my last theater (last house) i THOUGHT it would be used almost exclusively with anamorphic widescreen dvds (this was 3.5-4 yrs ago). but once we got the antenna set up and found OTA HD.....
so primarily, prime time HD tvshows: House, LOST, Desperate housewives, American Idol (Cook better win!!), Medium, 24 using the Tivo HD. (as an aside, when i do get a scaler, i assume it would be best to set the tivo to output natively and let the processor handle the conversions, correct). the pj will get used virtually every day...
I also LOVE action/adventure movies. once the theater is set up and running, i'm not sure what percentage of my movies will be supplied by PPV HD movies through dishnet, or BR. lets say 65/35. from what i here, the ps3 does a good job of upconverting sd dvds for the odd one that gets played, or would an hdmi oppo shooting 480i out to the scaler be better?
no cable
I love sports, playing them that is, but i don't have time to sit and watch them, so they are out of the mix with the exception of Superbowl. I do get EVERY UFC ppv available, (and they are now available in HD too) as a matter of fact, my house has always been a mecca for UFC fans...on ppv night anyway.
I am a much more critical viewer (videophile?) when watching movies. i suppose that will make BR a better choice, especially because it will be the only way to get the newest HD audio codecs in the forseeable future.
so there you have it. how do my viewing habbits affect my choice?
HPD? HDQ? VP50?
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Electeohome marquee 9500lc, lumagen hdp, 9' da lite high power screen denon 2809ci paradigm speakers home made dual stacked subs
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 12:52 am Post subject: |
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| armstrr wrote: |
so primarily, prime time HD tvshows: House, LOST, Desperate housewives, American Idol (Cook better win!!), Medium, 24 using the Tivo HD.
I love sports, playing them that is, but i don't have time to sit and watch them, so they are out of the mix with the exception of Superbowl. I do get EVERY UFC ppv available, (and they are now available in HD too) as a matter of fact, my house has always been a mecca for UFC fans...on ppv night anyway.
I am a much more critical viewer (videophile?) when watching movies. i suppose that will make BR a better choice, especially because it will be the only way to get the newest HD audio codecs in the forseeable future.
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I have no idea who "Cook" is, but OK if you say so. I also don't know what UFC is, but given the context, I'm going to assume some sporting event.
Sports are frequently shot with true video cameras. Most prime time shows and all movies are shot progressively. The Lumagen has an excellent film mode for both SD and HD. Its video mode is not so good. Video is where the VP50 excels. Given your preference, I would lean toward the Lumagen.
With 1080p/24 output, both will do equally well. So it is really the 1080i and 480i stuff you need to consider. If the source is progressive 24fps, the Lumagen does and excellent 1080i/60 -> 1080p/<24 multiple> deinterlacing.
| armstrr wrote: | | (as an aside, when i do get a scaler, i assume it would be best to set the tivo to output natively and let the processor handle the conversions, correct). |
Yes, exactly.
| armstrr wrote: | | HPD? HDQ? VP50? |
The only advantage of the HDQ is you get 4 DVI inputs instead of 2. But, a switch can fix that for less than the delta between them. So, the HDQ is only really needed if you are going to run out of memory blocks (you get 4 blocks on each input for each "standard" resolution which is almost always enough to support 2 sources per input).
If you get a scaler, you will not want to use the PS3 to scale SD DVDs. It cannot do 480i over HDMI, but you'd want to put 480p into the scaler, then send 1440x960/72 to the projector. If you don't watch alot of SD DVD, it might not be worth getting the Oppo.
Anyway, that's my two cents.
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Dave
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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armstrr
Joined: 26 Mar 2006
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 1:31 am Post subject: |
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is the # of inputs the ONLY diff between the hdq and hdp? and each input can be programmed (calibrated) to handle two sources with the appropriate switch?
what about 1080p sources? or should i set the ps3 up as 1080i and let the scaler do it? or passthrough and don't let the scaler touch it?
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Electeohome marquee 9500lc, lumagen hdp, 9' da lite high power screen denon 2809ci paradigm speakers home made dual stacked subs
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| armstrr wrote: | | is the # of inputs the ONLY diff between the hdq and hdp? |
Read the "features above the HDP" section:
http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=hdq_details
Since you are going to be using HDMI, you won't be using the analog output of the Lumagen, you'll be using some HDMI input to your PJ, so those don't matter. Also, I don't think an SDI equipped DVD player is worth it these days, so the SDI input is irrelevant. So, pretty much yes.
| armstrr wrote: | | and each input can be programmed (calibrated) to handle two sources with the appropriate switch? |
Each resolution (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, and user) for each input has 4 memory blocks which can have all their config parameters configured differently. The lumgen supports up to 8 output configurations and each of these memory blocks can be mapped to 1 output configuration. The Lumgens can be difficult to understand because of their power, but this is explained in in the Tip 1 and Tip 2 documents here:
http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=manuals
| armstrr wrote: | | what about 1080p sources? or should i set the ps3 up as 1080i and let the scaler do it? or passthrough and don't let the scaler touch it? |
The two rules of VP use:
1) Send the VP a digital signal where possible.
2) Send the VP the native rate of the material.
If at all possible only ONE device in the chain should do any processing. With a CRT, you are guaranteed that the display is not processing (which is a good thing). So, in every scenario, you want either only the source or only the video processor (VP) processing. My choice is the VP.
So, that means you should send the VP the native resolution/refresh of the source. For Blu-ray and HD DVD, that means you should send the VP 1080p/24. If your source does not support this, send 1080i/60. For broadcast HD, send either 1080i/60 or 720p/60 whichever is the native rate of the stream.
For SD, always send 480i. Now, most device will not allow you to send 480i digitally (such as the PS2 and many cable boxes). Most will only allow 480p. So, you need to try 480p digitally vs. 480i analog to the VP to see which does best. With SD DVDs and any DVD player newer than the last couple years, 480p digital is almost always better than 480i analog. As for SD cable, it is a toss up and you just need to try.
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Dave
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armstrr
Joined: 26 Mar 2006
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Dave!! I thought only the HDQ or Radiance could do anything with a 1080p source. I thought the hdp would only PASS THROUGH.
I did some reading on the links you posted. I'll admit, I consider myself...techie but do not fully understand everything stated there, but i'm sure with some persistence and practice.
so, to sum up, the HDP and up, can accept a signal from HDdvd/PS3/BR up to 1080/30. What output refresh rate would work best?
with the memories available for each input, it is possible to input multiple hdmi sources into each lumagen dvi input. color and greyscale can be adjusted and saved for each of these. would i use something like the monoprice 2 or 3 to one switch and just use a cable with dvi on one end, hdmi on the other out to the pj?
would i need one of these switches for each of the lumagen's inputs? i could use the component input on the scaler. but i am guessing that using analogue component is not recommended if hdmi/dvi can be used.
thanks for the continuing education!!
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Last edited by armstrr on Fri May 16, 2008 4:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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armstrr
Joined: 26 Mar 2006
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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David Cook http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Cook_(singer)
and more importantly....
UFC http://www.ufc.com/
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| armstrr wrote: | | I'll admit, I consider myself...techie but do not fully understand everything stated there, but i'm sure with some persistence and practice. |
Once you get in and play with it, it starts to make some sense. 
But, I don't think most people understand half of what these can do! I think most people are using about 10% of the functionality!
| armstrr wrote: | | so, to sum up, the HDP and up, can accept a signal from HDdvd/PS3/BR up to 1080/30. What output refresh rate would work best? |
Yes it can. 1080p/24 is the source, so that is what you should send it. There is no 1080p/60 source material, so no reason to ever send it that.
If true source material is 24, then your output should be a multiple of 24, either 48 or 72. 48 is best because it uses less bandwidth, so try that first. If it flickers too much for you, do 72. But, to do 72, you have to either:
a) reduce the horizontal resolution to something like 1770, or
b) reduce the porches in the "timings" section of the Lumagen
broadcast 1080i and DVDs will always come at 60Hz. Their source may be 60Hz, or in the case of movies, will be 24. Thus, if a movie, output the same as above. If true 60 Hz, output at 60 Hz.
So, if I were setting up you system, it would have these output configurations:
1) 1080p/48 or 72 (used for HD movies)
2) 1080p/60 (used for 1080i/60 material)
3) 720p/60 (used for 720p/60 material and probably also broadcast SD) - if scan lines are too bad at this resolution for you, then just use output 2 above
4) 1440x960/48 or 72 (used for SD DVD movies)
| armstrr wrote: | | with the memories available for each input, it is possible to input multiple hdmi sources into each lumagen dvi input. |
Exactly. But in your world, it will be very easy because none of the will have the same resolution, so you don't even need to swap memory blocks. If you put your TiVo and PS3 on the same input, then the TiVo will use 720p and 1080i blocks and the PS3 will use the "user" block (1080p/24). So, you've got them all working on MEMA!!!! You still have 3 memory location left!
If two devices on a shared input (say input 1) and both output the same resolution (say 1080i/60), then you would configure one device's settings in MEMA and the other in MEMB. So, you'd have a macro on your remote then selected device 1, tell switch to select its input, tell Lumagen to select input 1, and tell Lumgen to select MEMA. when you select device 2, the macro tells switch to select its input, tells Lumagen to select input 1, tells Lumagen to select MEMB.
Now, lest say in this hypothetical world device 2 outputs 1080i/60 and it might be 60 Hz source, or it might be 24fps source. Then we'll copy MEMB to MEMC, not change anything, but map MEMC to the appropriate output config. So it would look something like this (just and example):
device 1 -> switch port 1 -> Lumagen input 1 MEMA -> output config 2
device 2 -> switch port 2 -> Lumagen input 1 MEMB -> ouput config 2
device 3 -> switch port 2 -> Lumagen input 1 MEMC -> output config 1
I ask, how f*cking cool is this?!?!?!?!? 
| armstrr wrote: | | color and greyscale can be adjusted and saved for each of these. |
Color and grayscale can be saved for every device, for every resolution. So, you can have one set for your TiVo HD at 1080i/60 and another for your TiVo HD at 720p/60. If the same resolution from the same device has variations between types of content, you can use memory blocks to create more color and grayscale settings for it.
I ask again, how f*cking cool is that?!?!?!?
| armstrr wrote: | | would i use something like the monoprice 2 or 3 to one switch and just use a cable with dvi on one end, hdmi on the other out to the pj? |
If you have three HDMI/DVI sources, you would hook one source to the HDP and two sources to a 2x1 switch then into the HDP.
If you had 4 HDMI/DVI source, you would use two 2x1 switches or a 4x2 matrixed switch.
The cable to the PJ will depend upon the input device you use.
| armstrr wrote: | | but i am guessing that using analogue component is not recommended if hdmi/dvi can be used. |
Correct. A manual 2x1 switch costs next to nothing. Just put it on the media playback machine. You have to load the media, so you can push the button. When you unload the media, push the button back. Or, spend $20 more and get a remote controlled one.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks. The only reality TV I watch is documentaries. And I really never liked talent contents. Didn't watch Star Search, don't watch American Idol.
The UFC appears to be a little too "caveman" for my tendencies. Any desires I have for watching pugilistic endeavors seems to be met by watching action movies. 
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Dave
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armstrr
Joined: 26 Mar 2006
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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wow dave. it sounds like the hdp will do everything and more than i'll ever need.
i really appreciate your help on this!!
now to find a good used one...
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Electeohome marquee 9500lc, lumagen hdp, 9' da lite high power screen denon 2809ci paradigm speakers home made dual stacked subs
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| armstrr wrote: | wow dave. it sounds like the hdp will do everything and more than i'll ever need.
i really appreciate your help on this!!
now to find a good used one... |
I'm not sure I've seen the system that can exhaust the HDP's functionality!
I'm thrashing my Lumagen in a more complex way than most people and I have not hit a limit yet.
Used HDPs are $750-800 these days. They sometimes sell B stock HDPs new for $999. If you get impatient, call them and see if they have B stock.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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armstrr
Joined: 26 Mar 2006
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | armstrr wrote: | wow dave. it sounds like the hdp will do everything and more than i'll ever need.
i really appreciate your help on this!!
now to find a good used one... |
I'm not sure I've seen the system that can exhaust the HDP's functionality!
I'm thrashing my Lumagen in a more complex way than most people and I have not hit a limit yet.
Used HDPs are $750-800 these days. They sometimes sell B stock HDPs new for $999. If you get impatient, call them and see if they have B stock. |
yup, i emailed and they have them for what you mention...not bad for all the capability. and...not far off used prices.
do you know what the warranty is for b-stock?
also, b-stock: is that just people who upgraded and traded in? defective units that have been fixed? scratch?
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Electeohome marquee 9500lc, lumagen hdp, 9' da lite high power screen denon 2809ci paradigm speakers home made dual stacked subs
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| armstrr wrote: |
do you know what the warranty is for b-stock? |
To my knowledge, b-stock has the full warranty.
| armstrr wrote: | | also, b-stock: is that just people who upgraded and traded in? defective units that have been fixed? scratch? |
All of the above. Could be a scratched item. Defective Lumagens are rare, but it could happen. I'd bet most of the HDP b-stock right now is people trading in for a new Radiance (which really is a bad ass processor).
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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armstrr
Joined: 26 Mar 2006
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 2:55 am Post subject: |
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deal pending.......
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Gino
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 1363
Location: Trinity Beach, AUSTRALIA
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 6:18 am Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | I'm thrashing my Lumagen in a more complex way than most people and I have not hit a limit yet.
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So Dave, can I ask.... why bother getting a Lumagen Radiance? Is it purely the input/outputs? Surely the new radiance offers improved deinterlacing/processing?
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Gino wrote: | | Person99 wrote: | I'm thrashing my Lumagen in a more complex way than most people and I have not hit a limit yet.
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So Dave, can I ask.... why bother getting a Lumagen Radiance? Is it purely the input/outputs? Surely the new radiance offers improved deinterlacing/processing? |
Lumagen pretty much had film mode down. And their scaling is pretty awesome. So, if you are only scaling DVDs and watching film, there is not much in the way of core processing that you get. But, it does add cool stuff.
Some of the cool things:
1- Full CMS to correct both primaries and secondaries. The HDP, et al only do 75% primaries. With the Radiance, you can correct the colors on any display whose color points fall outside the triangle.
2- MPEG mosquito noise and macroblocking reduction. This is similar to the old Algolith products. The HDP, et al have none of this.
3- Better diagonal filtering for video source material.
4- Has some cropping/non-linear stretch features that some people like. These allow you to do stupid things like watch 1.85:1 with an anamorphic lens as a scope projection (I think they are idiots--but this has what they want. )
5- Can switch audio.
6- 6 HDMI inputs, so no HDMI switches needed.
7- Has two outputs--don't need to use a
8- Has 12v triggers
The last one is very nice. I'm helping a guy set up a system now where the "main" display is a plasma and the secondary display is a projector (with an electric screen). His denon AVR has 2 HDMI outputs and a 12v trigger that is active only when the second output is, but even with this, we can't come up with a setup that works for him with an HDP. The Radiance would work perfect for him, plus, you get some extra goodness (for me, the noise reduction is really a great feature).
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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armstrr
Joined: 26 Mar 2006
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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deal closed!
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Electeohome marquee 9500lc, lumagen hdp, 9' da lite high power screen denon 2809ci paradigm speakers home made dual stacked subs
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audvid
Joined: 14 May 2008
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| armstrr wrote: | | deal closed! |
armstrr, you could be my twin in terms of system and viewing habbits. I have 9500lc ultra (2001). External Dtronics DVI to RGBHV box I too watch only primetime OTA HD shows using DVR (directv hr21) set to 1080i. Currently, I am using a Zenith DVD player with 1080i. I got rid of my Faroudja NRS and did not see a need for a video processor. I was talking to craig today. I am going to use him to calibrate my projector. He suggested the Lumagen HDP. My initial thought was.. why bother with another box in the middle when I am doing fine with 1080i right out of the DVR/DVD players. Which processor did you go with? Did you see any remarkable improvement of the picture with the processor VS 1080i from DVR?
Thanks.
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