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energeezer
Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 67
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 6:12 pm Post subject: NEC Experts XGLC, Moome, PS3 & Iscan HD+ |
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Guys
I just got a PS3 mostly for Blu-Ray and have a couple of questions. First some background and equip list.
XG1352LC with Moome DVI I/P Card
PS3 40 Gig running HDMI to DVI connector
IScan HD+
I am only running analog off the IScan because I have discovered that the Iscan will not switch properly back and forth between DVI input and Comp input. Gives me all kinds of grief when used with the moome input. When running the DVI through the I scan it seems as though the Iscan sends some signal down the DVI even when DVI output is not selected. This causes huge issue with the moome card switching so i am running the PS3 direct to the moome input card via HDMI to DVI cable. I am also running a HTPC Via rgbhv to input A but this has no bearing on my issues.
I have no issues at all running 1080i from the PS3 but a horizontal size issue when running 720p and a banding issue when running 1080p.
720P issue
When running 720p I can not completely fill the width of the screen with hsize/amplitude set to 100%. Its close but not quite enough. The XG width pot is set to spec and I would prefer not to go there to increase the width. With the Iscan I would lower the porch settings but can not do this with the PS3 and do not want to run DVI into the Iscan for compatibility issues I mentioned earlier.
Is there any way to fill the screen without moving the PJ or adj the horiz width potentiometer out of spec?
1080p issue
I get banding when running 1080p. The picture is stunning but in high motion there is some horizontal banding. I have no issues with sharpness or softening as my PJ is fairly will optimized.
Any suggestions on how to avoid the banding?
Thanks
Steve
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dbaisey
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 821
Location: Southern Cal LA / Seattle WA
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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If you have point corrections stored it will cause banding running across the screen, or is it down the sides?. Are you running a expanded raster or what throw are you using? Doug
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energeezer
Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 67
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the reply Doug.
I am using an expanded raster for minimum throw and max raster useage.
There is no point applied since I did zero/norm all point convergence.
I found this thread which seems to outline the same issue only with an X Box instead of PS3. I also have the folds on either side of the image.
https://www.curtpalme.com/forum_archived/viewtopic.php@t=7597.html
Does anyone have any ideas? I can take this back and get a standalone Blu-Ray.
Has anyone been able to run 1080p from the PS3 or standalone player without a scaler and porch adjustments?
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 3:24 am Post subject: |
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I have asked this question too and never got a positive response, this was one reason for me going with an HTPC and having configurable porch settings.
Mike
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Doing HD since the last century!
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rickycleung
Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 3:38 am Post subject: |
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I have similar problem when feeding 1080i/P to XG135 with Moome DVI input card. I solved the issue by inputting the signal to a standalone scaler and adjusting the timing and porch settings.
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energeezer
Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 67
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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Will I run into the same issues with a standalone Blu-Ray player or is this something unique to PS3?
I'd use my scaler but the Iscan HD+ does not accept 1080p input (it will just pass 1080p thru) and I would be stuck with the same problem. The Iscan also has DVI/Analog switching issues.
How about one of the newer moome external boxes since the Moome HDMI XG internal is not ready yet.
Anyone able to accept 1080p on an XG from a Blu-Ray using one of the new Moomes?
It looks like I may be forced to give a standalone Blu-Ray player a try. (thank god for future shop 30 day return policy)
Thats one thing about CRT.
Nothing is easy the first time!!!!! You have to work for everything.
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dbaisey
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 821
Location: Southern Cal LA / Seattle WA
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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Steve,
If your banding looks like the one in the link this isn't banding as I know it from point. More of a clamp issue. Im pretty sure Moome still has his XG set up and has a PS3, you might have him run a test with the newer HDMI boxes. Doug
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jarseneau
Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 323
Location: WI
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| energeezer wrote: | | Will I run into the same issues with a standalone Blu-Ray player or is this something unique to PS3?. |
I have a standalone HD DVD player (Toshiba XA2) that does the same thing when set to 1080p so I bet a standalone Blu-Ray will have the same banding and side foldover.
The only success I've had with 1080p is with an HTPC.
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Jerry
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dbaisey
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 821
Location: Southern Cal LA / Seattle WA
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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Jerry,
Was this both with the new XG card or the DVI card? Doug
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energeezer
Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 67
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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Its getting interesting now.
I borrowed a Samsung standalone BR player and it did the exact same thing. It even had the issue with not enough width in 720p mode.
So it looks like it is down to either BR not being compatible with the XG in 720 or 1080p mode or the older and perhaps the new Moome DVI cards not being compatible.
I guess if the BR players have porches out of limits for the XG then there is no fix other than an external scaler. This is a bummer because the scalers which do a good job of de-interlacing 1080i or processing 1080p are worth more than the XG, moome card and BR player combined. It is looking like a switch to digital (RS2 maybe) is becoming more attractive.
Doug.
Lets assume this is a clamping issue. Is there anything in the XG menus that I can adjust or some other workaround you may have in this scenario?
I'm going to start a new thread on the Moome forum and see if anyone has been able to run 1080p on the XG without a scaler. Maybe the new card is OK or the old one can be updated.
Steve
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danOO00
Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 70
Location: Putnam County, NY
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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Would it be so horrible to use 1080i, and call it a day? Maybe optimize the spot shape if the scan lines are noticeable.
I use 1080i with my PGXtra with a PS3 and HDFury, the image is spectacular.
I have never seen 1080P on a CRT (have on LCD), so maybe my ignorance is bliss....
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| danOO00 wrote: | Would it be so horrible to use 1080i, and call it a day? Maybe optimize the spot shape if the scan lines are noticeable.
I use 1080i with my PGXtra with a PS3 and HDFury, the image is spectacular.
I have never seen 1080P on a CRT (have on LCD), so maybe my ignorance is bliss.... |
While I agree 1080i looks great on an XG I do feel 1080p does look better. I find the interlace field is very distracting at 60Hz. Running a higher refresh rate such as Kai's 96Hz timings does a nice job of hiding the interlace field but personally I think 1080p looks better and you need a scaler or HTPC for 96Hz also.
Mike
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Doing HD since the last century!
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jarseneau
Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 323
Location: WI
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| dbaisey wrote: | Jerry,
Was this both with the new XG card or the DVI card? Doug |
I've also tried the HD Fury and in they all have the same foldover and I suspect banding is the same but I didn't look closely at that aspect before going back to 1080i. It seems to be related mostly with how the source device has formatted the signal. I'll have to check what happens when running the HTPC through the different HDMI/DVI modules. I've only checked it going RGBHV analog from the PC.
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Jerry
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rickycleung
Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | So it looks like it is down to either BR not being compatible with the XG in 720 or 1080p mode or the older and perhaps the new Moome DVI cards not being compatible.
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I don't think it is the compatible issue of Moome DVI card(New or Old). I read that when feeding a 1080i/p signal to XG135,the image foldover on both sides is caused by the short retrace time of XG135. It can be solved by adjusting the timing and porch settings of HTPC or standalone scaler.
Same as Mike, I found that the 1080i interlace field is very distracting at 60Hz.
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Mark_A_W
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| rickycleung wrote: | | Quote: | So it looks like it is down to either BR not being compatible with the XG in 720 or 1080p mode or the older and perhaps the new Moome DVI cards not being compatible.
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I don't think it is the compatible issue of Moome DVI card(New or Old). I read that when feeding a 1080i/p signal to XG135,the image foldover on both sides is caused by the short retrace time of XG135. It can be solved by adjusting the timing and porch settings of HTPC or standalone scaler.
Same as Mike, I found that the 1080i interlace field is very distracting at 60Hz. |
Bang on Ricky. It's a timing issue combined with retrace (not short enough). I think the Moome card is irrelevant.
As for 1080i 60hz, well, try 1080i 96hz instead 
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Bert Randolph
Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 81
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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Moome is innocent, as it also happens when using an xbox 360 with vga. no moome involved at all there
Daniel.
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energeezer
Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 67
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Bert Randolph wrote: | Moome is innocent, as it also happens when using an xbox 360 with vga. no moome involved at all there
Daniel. |
Thats kind of what I suspected.
It does mean that one needs a hugely expensive scaler to use the NEC to its full potential with BR. Have you checked the prices of scalers which will process 1080p or even 1080i and feature motion adaptive de-interlacing? If one does not already own one it brings into question the whole validity of the continued use of CRT when some of the digitals are approacing CRT quality. (some say they are already surpassed but I'm not one of those people)
On the other hand 1080i looks good - just not as good as 1080p on a well set up XG LC.
Bummer.
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dbaisey
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 821
Location: Southern Cal LA / Seattle WA
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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Steve,
CRT hasn't and never will be plug and play for everything. If your running a expanded raster / shorter throw already then in most cases you will need a scaler to manipulate what you need to go with that decision esp using 720P and filling the screen or move it back a inch or two. A processor can take care of most of it for ease of operation if 1080I /720P 60Hz bothers you.
The ones that want to run 1080P do use a Lumagen or HTPC but for most of the family HT end users they like 1080I on a 8". Full potential is up to what the end user defines it at to fit their needs, then there is the audio end to think about also.
What I dont like from BR is the quality of the media transfer...spending all that $ and seeing / hearing crap and differences between titles. Thats worth bitching about. Doug
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| energeezer wrote: | | Bert Randolph wrote: | Moome is innocent, as it also happens when using an xbox 360 with vga. no moome involved at all there
Daniel. |
Thats kind of what I suspected.
It does mean that one needs a hugely expensive scaler to use the NEC to its full potential with BR. Have you checked the prices of scalers which will process 1080p or even 1080i and feature motion adaptive de-interlacing? If one does not already own one it brings into question the whole validity of the continued use of CRT when some of the digitals are approacing CRT quality. (some say they are already surpassed but I'm not one of those people)
On the other hand 1080i looks good - just not as good as 1080p on a well set up XG LC.
Bummer. |
Believe me I weighed all the options when I finally decided I to upgrade my HTPC for Blu-ray, this was early on after fighting to get HDMI / Moome to work with my Toshiba HD-DVD player and all the EDID issues & crush blacks. Finally went back to analog (RGBHV) 1080p on the HTPC with custom timings and haven’t looked back, it just works! IMO Vista added even more stability to HD playback that was some-what lacking in XP although other have good luck with XP.
I recently priced out a Blu-ray equipped HTPC for a customer and the bill of materials came to under $600 including Vista, I don’t need a Moome or a HDFury so the net cost is not much more than a PS3 + D/A converter solution. There was an added plus I get 72Hz refresh something even a high end scaler cannot do.
Mike
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Doing HD since the last century!
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Mark_A_W
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| energeezer wrote: | | Bert Randolph wrote: | Moome is innocent, as it also happens when using an xbox 360 with vga. no moome involved at all there
Daniel. |
Thats kind of what I suspected.
It does mean that one needs a hugely expensive scaler to use the NEC to its full potential with BR. Have you checked the prices of scalers which will process 1080p or even 1080i and feature motion adaptive de-interlacing? If one does not already own one it brings into question the whole validity of the continued use of CRT when some of the digitals are approacing CRT quality. (some say they are already surpassed but I'm not one of those people)
On the other hand 1080i looks good - just not as good as 1080p on a well set up XG LC.
Bummer. |
LOL, no, you just need a PC 
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