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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| heelsfinl4 wrote: | | Thanks for the reply Kal. My current Sony does not have invidual red.green and blue color controls. Am I correct that this is what RGB high end and RGB low end is? I do think the Sony 52w4100 that I am going to purchase has these controls after all. If that's the case, it looks like I'll be able to calibrate it. I just need to order the calibrator from Amazon.Thanks, and I'm sure this isn't the last question I will have for you!!! |
The only reason I commented on this is because others come to this thread looking for answers and someone with the same model may read your post and think there are no adjustments for RGB when infact there is. I just wanted to make that clear. I cann't blame you for not wanting to go into the service menu because it is a dangerous area. One wrong move and your tv can shut down and not restart. Then it's either to a repair center or the trash.
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | I cann't blame you for not wanting to go into the service menu because it is a dangerous area. One wrong move and your tv can shut down and not restart. Then it's either to a repair center or the trash. |
I think that's a bit unrealistic. While it's not meant for the every day person I wouldn't worry too much about the service menu. Just don't adjust something if you don't know what it is.
Kal
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | | I cann't blame you for not wanting to go into the service menu because it is a dangerous area. One wrong move and your tv can shut down and not restart. Then it's either to a repair center or the trash. |
I think that's a bit unrealistic. While it's not meant for the every day person I wouldn't worry too much about the service menu. Just don't adjust something if you don't know what it is.
Kal |
Think so, do ya. Well I know whats in those service menu's, and thats not an exaggeration. Do some goggling. Service menu takes you into the eeprom, and while you can say, dont adjust something if you dont know what it is, some like to say, well let me see what this affects if I change it, them bam, loss of sync or shutdown. Then the set has to be connected to a PC or other device and have the eeprom realigned or even replaced. I've been doing TV repair for quite some years now.
But if you dont think so then play away. Just dont give advice to someone else if its going to cause them damage.
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rabies_70
Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 1189
Location: Carlsbad, CA
TV/Projector: Sony G70Q
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:40 am Post subject: |
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Hey Kal, do you or does anyone have any suggestions on where to set my scalers picture control settings (DVDO iScanHD+ brightness, contrast etc) before I start the HCFR and eye one calibration?
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| rabies_70 wrote: | | Hey Kal, do you or does anyone have any suggestions on where to set my scalers picture control settings (DVDO iScanHD+ brightness, contrast etc) before I start the HCFR and eye one calibration? |
Good question. I would set them at the defaults and start from there.
Having multiple sets of brightness/contrast settings is something I don't get into as it's very different for every setup. If you're not sure, set the settings on the scaler or source devices to default before starting and adjust in the display only. That way you know the scaler or source device isn't boosting or cutting something.
Kal
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rabies_70
Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 1189
Location: Carlsbad, CA
TV/Projector: Sony G70Q
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Kal. Thats what I will do.
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Scott_R_K
Joined: 30 May 2008
Posts: 17
Location: Rockwood , Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| rabies_70 wrote: | | Hey Kal, do you or does anyone have any suggestions on where to set my scalers picture control settings (DVDO iScanHD+ brightness, contrast etc) before I start the HCFR and eye one calibration? |
Hi ,
I'm using a DVDO HD+ in my system . I'm feeding it a PS3 and an OPPO 970 . My PJ is an Infocus SP5000 .
An interesting thing , when I set the PJ to "Native" my Contrast and Brightness controls became ineffective , so it was quite a plus to find that the HD+ had these controls and they worked as advertised .
I currently have Brightness at -7 , Contrast at +44 and Saturation at -4 all set from the Getgray Calibration DVD through the OPPO (as the PS3 won't pass BTB and WTW via RGB over DVI in my system) .
Good luck with your Calibration.
Scott............... 
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Scott_R_K
Joined: 30 May 2008
Posts: 17
Location: Rockwood , Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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Hi KAL ,
Just spotted the plug in your Guide and over at AVS for a comment I made on Colour runout . Thanks ! That was very cool .
As an aside , in your Guide check out the Graphic right below Part 7 , there seems to be something wrong in that page .
Also , I'm going to be trying an additional CC15R to my CC30R filter to try and tame the Blue/Green a little more and I'll be trying your suggestions on bring contrast down until Red hits 0.313 . I believe this was causing my "hump" or "S-curve" for Red as the top end was running out of steam and when I increased Red Gain at 80IRE it simply "flexed" the curve . I'll know Friday night .
Thanks for all the help .
Scott..............
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:24 am Post subject: |
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| Scott_R_K wrote: | | Just spotted the plug in your Guide and over at AVS for a comment I made on Colour runout . Thanks ! That was very cool . |
No problems! Didn't want people to think it was my own thoughts!
| Quote: | | As an aside , in your Guide check out the Graphic right below Part 7 , there seems to be something wrong in that page . |
I don't see it. Can you be more specific? Everything looks fine to me in the first image in part 7.
Kal
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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I suppose this thread has had sufficient time to explore any quirks the Eye One device might have and I finally feel comfortable in ordering. I decided to wait a little while after jumping all over the Spyder II when you first started your guide Kal. I can't wait to try this again!
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| dropzone7 wrote: | | I suppose this thread has had sufficient time to explore any quirks the Eye One device might have and I finally feel comfortable in ordering. I decided to wait a little while after jumping all over the Spyder II when you first started your guide Kal. I can't wait to try this again! |
You're like me: Wait a while and then jump. Let all the stuff iron itself out.
Over the last 24 hours I've made a bunch more updates to make things a bit clearer. I had the display type set incorrectly to LCD for most display types including CRT. I've now changed it to say:
| Quote: | Ensure that the "Calibration Mode" is set to "LCD" for all types of display types except for the following situations:
- Users with CRT displays (direct view tube, CRT projector, or CRT rear projection) should select "CRT". This is for both the Eye-One and Spyder2 sensors.
- Users with Plasma displays using an Eye-One sensor should select "Plasma". There is no "Plasma" option for Spyder2 users - use "LCD" instead.
Even if your display doesn't use LCD technology, the "LCD" option is the right one to use with other digital displays such as SXRD, LCoS, DLP, etc. CRT and Plasma technologies are the only exception where "LCD" is not to be used. |
This has always been a very confusing subject. From the start everything I read about the Spyder2 and CRT displays was that LCD should always be used. Frankly it didn't seem to make much difference if LCD or CRT was chosen with the Spyder2.
When I added Eye-One support to the guide this section should have been updated as with the Eye-One CRT is the correct option to use with any CRT display.
Sorry for the confusion! I went back and tried LCD mode myself with my CRT projector and see the exact same problem that some were having with the Eye-One "hanging". It would read fast from 0 to about 60 IRE (about 1 second each) but then extremely slow readings (30-60 seconds each) above that. Very annoying.
I also finally got around to adding some information to the guide about colour run-outs. Thanks to everyone for the tips/tricks and even the sample data! See section 6.11 (quoted below):
| Quote: | STEP 6.12: A common problem with all displays if your contrast is set too high is 'running out' of a certain colour before the others as light output goes up beyond 80 IRE and approaches 100IRE. With digital displays the problem colour is typically red so we will use that as our example. Red light output will often hit a ceiling and stop increasing while contrast is turned up while green and blue output continue to increase. This causes a visible drop in red output in the 90/100 IRE points and looks something like this:
Why this happens (thanks for forum member Scott_R_K): In the early days of home theater many of the digital projector manufacturers were simply using slightly altered presentation projectors as home theater projectors. These projectors were intentionally built to produce higher blue and green outputs to produce a more vivid picture and higher light output as this is what was required for presentation situations: Light output was the primary concern at the expense of colour accuracy. The bulbs chosen for these projectors were also often very red deficient to begin with (something that a CC30R colour correction filter can help with - more on that later).
The only solution if you run out of red in at 90/100 IRE is to turn down your contrast. While displaying the 100 IRE pattern (see Part 4: Setting White Level) take continuous measurements and keep lowering the contrast until the x value (red) reads 0.313 or stops dropping. This will be the highest you can run your contrast and maintain a correct amount of red output in relation to green and blue.
If you have to reduce the contrast such that you're not longer within the target ftL light range for your type of display, you have a decision to make: Do you keep higher light output at the expense of having an incorrect upper IRE range? Or do you fix the upper IRE range at the expense of contrast ratio and light output? As is always the case, calibration requires deciding which trade offs to make to get the best picture for your particular set up. Try both and make the call.
While this sort of problem can also occur with green or blue, it's far less likely to happen on digital displays. Regardless, if you find one of the colours dropping off significantly above 80 IRE, try reducing your contrast to see if the problem resolves itself. |
Kal
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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How do you mount the Eye One sensor to the tripod? Tape it on like with the Spyder?
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Scott_R_K
Joined: 30 May 2008
Posts: 17
Location: Rockwood , Ontario
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:14 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | As an aside , in your Guide check out the Graphic right below Part 7 , there seems to be something wrong in that page . |
I don't see it. Can you be more specific? Everything looks fine to me in the first image in part 7.
Kal[/quote]
It's the strangest thing . It must be some interference from my Firefox Browser as it seems to attach itself to various areas of the Guide . I did finally get it to go away after several refreshes of the page . 
Scott....................
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picree
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 351
Location: Johnson City, TN
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:36 am Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | Over the last 24 hours I've made a bunch more updates to make things a bit clearer. I had the display type set incorrectly to LCD for most display types including CRT. I've now changed it to say:
| Quote: | Ensure that the "Calibration Mode" is set to "LCD" for all types of display types except for the following situations:
- Users with CRT displays (direct view tube, CRT projector, or CRT rear projection) should select "CRT". This is for both the Eye-One and Spyder2 sensors.
- Users with Plasma displays using an Eye-One sensor should select "Plasma". There is no "Plasma" option for Spyder2 users - use "LCD" instead.
Even if your display doesn't use LCD technology, the "LCD" option is the right one to use with other digital displays such as SXRD, LCoS, DLP, etc. CRT and Plasma technologies are the only exception where "LCD" is not to be used. |
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Kal-are you also recommending the removal of the LCD filter on the S2 or just switching modes from LCD to CRT? Have you looked at the effect of removing the little white diffusion disk in the S2 as well as the LCD filter?
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Scott_R_K
Joined: 30 May 2008
Posts: 17
Location: Rockwood , Ontario
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:02 am Post subject: |
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Hi KAL ,
The original CC30R Lee Filter I bought was a 4" x 4" square that cost me about $47.00 CDN delivered . After a year of use I noticed the colours had changed on screen and when I took the filter down I found it had bleached out where the PJ image had been hitting it . I had the Filter mounted in a cardboard picture frame and simply suspended it in front of the lens . With the Infocus you can not attach (easily) a threaded camera-type glass CC filter as some have reported doing .
While looking for a substitute and cheaper Filter Supplier I came across this site...
http://www.northernsound.net/Sales/Filters/filters/rosco/roscolux.html
Check near the bottom for the Calcolor section and then the Reds .
#4615 = CC15R
#4630 = CC30R
#4650 = CC60R
#4690 = CC90R
These come in 24" x 20" sheets that can be rolled and were only $7.25 . So even if they should bleach , it's cheaper to just cut another one . So far I've had the CC30R up for 9 months without any signs of bleaching .
Check out the Technical Specifications for a good description of the Manufacturing process . These products are used in Film production so I expect them to be a little more durable .
I've even "washed" this one with water to remove a slight "haze" and it survived . The only negative to this over a glass filter is a slight de-focussing of the image . I just tell people it's more "film-like" .
I found a dealer less than 10km from me in Guelph that does counter sales .
SceneWORK
519-837-0583
Cheers ,
Scott................ 8)
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:23 am Post subject: |
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| picree wrote: | | Kal-are you also recommending the removal of the LCD filter on the S2 or just switching modes from LCD to CRT? Have you looked at the effect of removing the little white diffusion disk in the S2 as well as the LCD filter? |
I got inaccurate readings with the filter off. With the filter on, it matches my Minolta TV2150 colorimeter very closely. I'd leave it on.
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richmond5
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 48
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:18 am Post subject: |
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Just installed the HCFR software and was trying to run it. After I press the green triangle to take the Ist reading of Y, the program was stuck. Does it happened to anyone. trying to get out of the program, it would said program not responsing. Once got out, try to rerun it , it wouldn't let you. Have to reboot the computer, took one reading of Y and stuck again.
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| picree wrote: | | Kal-are you also recommending the removal of the LCD filter on the S2 or just switching modes from LCD to CRT? Have you looked at the effect of removing the little white diffusion disk in the S2 as well as the LCD filter? |
I did try the Spyder2 with the diffusor/filter off quickly and didn't notice any significant differences. I left it on as this is what I had read that everyone recommends but I'm starting to wonder if maybe a lot of people got it wrong.
Though most Spyder2's are innacurate enough that it probably doesn't matter. 
| garyfritz wrote: | | picree wrote: | | Kal-are you also recommending the removal of the LCD filter on the S2 or just switching modes from LCD to CRT? Have you looked at the effect of removing the little white diffusion disk in the S2 as well as the LCD filter? |
I got inaccurate readings with the filter off. With the filter on, it matches my Minolta TV2150 colorimeter very closely. I'd leave it on. |
Just because it matches your Minolta doesn't necessarily mean that it's accurate however. Do the Minolta TV2150 box and probe have the same S/N? Was it calibrated recently? Otherwise there's no guarantee that the Minolta is accurate. It just means that the two are giving similar numbers.
| Scott_R_K wrote: | While looking for a substitute and cheaper Filter Supplier I came across this site...
http://www.northernsound.net/Sales/Filters/filters/rosco/roscolux.html
These come in 24" x 20" sheets that can be rolled and were only $7.25 . So even if they should bleach , it's cheaper to just cut another one . So far I've had the CC30R up for 9 months without any signs of bleaching . |
I do mention Rosco filters in my guide as a cheap way to try out CRT projector colour filtering. However, I don't recommend this as a permanent solution as while the colours will be a lot better, the image will be softer and there will likely be a 'haze' to the image. These filters are designed for tinting stage lighting, and not for optical clarity.
I'm not sure if the Rosco sheets you're using as the same but I would imagine so. They sound the same and the price is similar.
| richmond5 wrote: | | Just installed the HCFR software and was trying to run it. After I press the green triangle to take the Ist reading of Y, the program was stuck. Does it happened to anyone. trying to get out of the program, it would said program not responsing. Once got out, try to rerun it , it wouldn't let you. Have to reboot the computer, took one reading of Y and stuck again. |
What sensor and driver version are you using?
Kal
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | Just because it matches your Minolta doesn't necessarily mean that it's accurate however. Do the Minolta TV2150 box and probe have the same S/N? Was it calibrated recently? Otherwise there's no guarantee that the Minolta is accurate. It just means that the two are giving similar numbers. |
Absolutely true. But I assume the odds of two arbitrary dissimilar sensors being wrong **in almost exactly the same way** are slim. It's more likely they're both roughly correct.
The Minolta hasn't been calibrated in God knows how long, but the probe *does* match.
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richmond5
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 48
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| richmond5 wrote: | Just installed the HCFR software and was trying to run it. After I press the green triangle to take the Ist reading of Y, the program was stuck. Does it happened to anyone. trying to get out of the program, it would said program not responsing. Once got out, try to rerun it , it wouldn't let you. Have to reboot the computer, took one reading
of Y and stuck again. |
I am using eye-one LT with drivers from i1Diagnostics through your link, thanks!
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