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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | We all know the HD DVD players scale very well, but SD can only look so good. No matter how good the upscaling is, it will still never look anything like HD. Period. |
That's not true. Top notch SD transfers can be made to look very HD-like, actually better than some of the HD transfers I've seen. Granted, they'll never look as good as really good HD transfers, but they can look surprisingly good.
There are certain SD DVD episodes of Deadwood for instance. If you were watching them on my system and I didn't tell you otherwise, you would think you were watching HD.
Of coarse this only applies to the best SD transfers.
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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Kal,
What HD-DVD player did/do you own?
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | I had a guy in my theater a few days ago. One of the things we looked at was the difference between Cars scaled on DVD (Toshiba XA1) and Cars on Blu-ray (PS3). To say the difference was huge wouldn't be an exaggeration. Was the movie still enjoyable on DVD? Sure, but we're not casual viewers - we're movie/HT enthusiasts. If we didn't think the difference between SD and HD was any big deal, we'd be watching movies on 42" plasmas in the living room with a Bose Acoustimass system. |
Agreed. I was one of the most vocal people who said that content is king and that I'd rather watch a good movie in SD than a bad movie in HD. Now, that's still true. Content *IS* king, but the truth of the matter is that I haven't watched or bought an SD movie since last summer when I bought into Blu-ray. I've put off buying new movies on SD since I figure one day they'll come out on Blu-ray (hopefully soon). There seems to be enough new Blu-ray content to keep me happy.
Kal
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil Smith wrote: | | ecrabb wrote: | | We all know the HD DVD players scale very well, but SD can only look so good. No matter how good the upscaling is, it will still never look anything like HD. Period. |
That's not true. Top notch SD transfers can be made to look very HD-like, actually better than some of the HD transfers I've seen. Granted, they'll never look as good as really good HD transfers, but they can look surprisingly good. |
The only times that I'd say upscaled DVD looks anywhere near as good as HD is when the HD transfer is so soft that it essentially has approximately a 480p resolution. There are a few Blu-ray discs like this like this thread mentions but 90% of so much better.
Upscaling only works on resolution too - it cannot under any circumstances take the Rec61 (SD) colour gamut and increase it to the Rec709 (HD) colour gamut. If you find the colours are the same between SD and HD then you're (a) watching a very bad HD transfer with poor colours, and/or (b) your display is poor or poorly calibrated/set up such that you cannot see the differences between Rec601/709.
I should take some primary colour measurements using Rec601 and Rec709 test sources and post them here. That would be interesting. I searched around for a CIE diagram with both Rec601 and Rec709 on it but couldn't find one. Surprising. Anyone?
| Quote: | | Of coarse this only applies to the best SD transfers. |
When compared to the absolutely WORST HD transfers. The two have to be true. Some really really bad HD transfers aren't much better than 480p (SD). Some are even closer to 720p native.
The remastered Fifth Element has been said to be close to 720p native and not 1080p. What this means is that while the resolution on disc is 1080p, the actual content doesn't lose any resolution when converted down to 720p and back up again to 1080p. This is very easy to do in Photoshop. You can "see" what the actual resolution of the source material was by trying to downconvert and then convert back up to 1080p. Start at 1080p and keep trying lower and lower resolutions until you don't notice a difference between the original and the one that was scaled down/up. Then you know what the 'effective' original resolution is.
| Quote: | | What HD-DVD player did/do you own? |
I had a Toshiba HD-A1 for about 2 months and then a HD-A2 for about a month or so.
Kal
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | The only times that I'd say upscaled DVD looks anywhere near as good as HD is when the HD transfer is so soft that it essentially has approximately a 480p resolution. There are a few Blu-ray discs like this like this thread mentions but 90% of so much better. |
Depends on who's doing the upscaling. 
I have all 3 formats, as well as HDTV, so it's not like I'm making a wild ass guess. *MY* upscaled SD DVD playback can look very close to HD. I'm sorry to hear that yours doesn't. 
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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Phil, at what resolution are you running your HD sources?
SC
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | Phil, at what resolution are you running your HD sources?
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I scale SD to 1440X960P on both my 4600HD and 3600HD using a Panasonic RP62 with SDI mod feeding a TAW Rock Plus with SDI. You would sware you are watching HD
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil Smith wrote: | | I have all 3 formats, as well as HDTV, so it's not like I'm making a wild ass guess. *MY* upscaled SD DVD playback can look very close to HD. I'm sorry to hear that yours doesn't. |
Phil, I agree with Kal. If your HD looks like upscaled SD, something is seriously wrong with your HD. A proper HD signal (good source signal, good display/delivery) has significantly more information and should look a LOT sharper. There's also the color gamut issues Kal mentions, but I don't know how visible those are. But the differences in resolution between upscaled SD and good HD should be dramatic.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
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Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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WTF? I can see how you could say that your scaled SD looks great, but "you would swear you are watching HD"? Come on, guys! HD DVD/BD has SIX times the spatial resolution of an SD DVD. SIX. I don't care HOW good your scaler is - nothing is going to magically make a signal with 1/6 the spatial resolution look ANYWHERE near as good as the high-res source.
I just don't get it.
SC
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greg_mitch
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 5320
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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You can't fault anyone for making the $100 argument. If HD DVD players were only $400 and up that person probably wouldn't have purchased them either. The truth is that the players were cheaper and they are in possession of an equal device for 1/4th the cost.
So saying the player is "worth" more is pointless. It didn't sell for more.
Don't tell me that I need to buy a PS3 too because I bought a player that was essentially "worth" as much as a PS3 already.
| Quote: | | So,.. Am I reading this right? You are not going to buy into Blu Ray but stick with upconverted DVD? |
Many people are doing this just fine.
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greg_mitch
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 5320
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | WTF? I can see how you could say that your scaled SD looks great, but "you would swear you are watching HD"? Come on, guys! HD DVD/BD has SIX times the spatial resolution of an SD DVD. SIX. I don't care HOW good your scaler is - nothing is going to magically make a signal with 1/6 the spatial resolution look ANYWHERE near as good as the high-res source.
I just don't get it.
SC |
I honestly think the display has the most to do with this. It is much easier to tell the difference if your display is super sharp like digital displays (LCD, plasma, etc.).
I can tell the difference but sometimes when I am watching DVD, I forget that it is upconverted and I think I am watching HDDVD. I am being honest and I am not hating on HD, but I think it is because my projector is not focused as sharply as it could be.
Don't be so surprised! 
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:21 am Post subject: |
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dvd file .com reviews 50 movies and only ONE is HD, all the rest Blur Ray and ws, I don't see how that is a fair evaluation of anything.
| kal wrote: | | Ah, ok, now I understand. You're pissed off that HD DVD lost so you take it out on Blu-ray by spreading mis-information like "Blu-ray looks worse than HD DVD" with zero foundation or facts to back it up.It's fine to be pissed off. It's fine to hate Sony and Blu-ray. I just wish people would stop spreading outright lies. It doesn't help anyone.. |
well one persons misinformation is another person Gospel truth. I remember back when Casino Royale was the only good loking Blur Ray movie and people would watch it like a million times because eveyrthing else sucked. 
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:36 am Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | dvd file .com reviews 50 movies and only ONE is HD, all the rest Blur Ray and ws, I don't see how that is a fair evaluation of anything. |
Huh? 
Draganm, you are a very confused individual.
Read the article I linked to on their site: http://www.dvdfile.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6326
They've reviewed just about every HD DVD disc that's over come out, not 1. What kind of movie review site devoted to keeping readers would not review HD DVDs?? C'mon. That's completely illogical.
You keep arguing with me but don't even take the time to read the proof I'm putting forward. I seriously give up having this discussion. It's pointless.
Kal
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:09 am Post subject: |
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Maybe my HD playback is lacking, or maybe my HTPC upscales and sharpens better than what you guys have seen for SD DVD. There are a lot of assumptions being made. Yours are made on your personal SD DVD experiences, which might not be on par with mine. Maybe *YOUR* SD DVD playback is lacking.
I never said it was as good as really good HD. The best SD DVDs are however comparable.
In running 1280x720P.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:44 am Post subject: |
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720p. There's our answer. You're literally throwing away more than half the spatial resolution contained on a BD or HD before you display it - 55% to be exact. You're only seeing 45% of the resolution on the disc and then telling us HD doesn't always look that much better. No wonder SD doesn't look too bad to you.
SC
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greg_mitch
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 5320
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:49 am Post subject: |
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I am running 1080i and I don't think it is night and day between the best SD upconverted and the worst HD I have seen.
I would prefer to watch HD, but my options are limited (by money).
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:14 am Post subject: |
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My HD is 1080i. I was talking about SD.
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| greg_mitch wrote: | I am running 1080i and I don't think it is night and day between the best SD upconverted and the worst HD I have seen.
I would prefer to watch HD, but my options are limited (by money). |
I prefer HD as well. But I rent movies and rip them to hard drives. Current HD offerings are hard to get when your renting, so for the most part I have no choice but to stick with SD.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:30 am Post subject: |
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| Phil Smith wrote: | | My HD is 1080i. I was talking about SD. |
Ah, OK. Never mind, then.
I remember when HD DVD first came out and people were watching them on their 720p fixed-pixel displays and bitching because "it just wasn't much better than DVD"... and I always wanted to say, "Yeah, and neither is your display!"
SC
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wipron
Joined: 09 May 2006
Posts: 50
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:58 am Post subject: |
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I was watching the Back to the Future trilogy a couple of weeks ago on my A30, and I must tell you, it looked damn good! I even had 1 of my kids say "Cool, you got Back to the Future in HD!" NO, I DO NOT think it looked as good as it will in HD. However, it looked at least 3 times better than I've ever seen it before.
I must add that after the last firmware upgrade for the PS3 (2.2), it up converts SD DVDs noticeably BETTER than my A30. Using two copies of the same movie and switching them back and forth.
IMO if people buy a HD TV and buy an up converting DVD player first, they will definitely see a difference in PQ, which may slow the growth of HD software. Some of these SD Movies do look very good up coverted! I have over 200 HD movies but I also have over 700 SD Movies.
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